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Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

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darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:50 am Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Ok guys here is the skinny...about 2 months ago my engine started to run a bit rough in the higher power ranges (80% and above) but idle through 75% was good as always.  Now my engine only had 25 to 30 hours on it when this started.  I have been tinkering with different things trying to figure it out but was not able to find anything out of the ordinary.  I have suspected my fuel system since this began and started with my finger strainers which were clean.  Next my fuel goes through a 40 micron Earl's filter and it was clean so I didn't bother checking the final filter right before the engine.  I then moved to the carbs and they were fine.  So in a last ditch effort, I decided to completely redo my fuel system hoses and this is where I found the problem.  



Here is how the fuel is routed so you can follow.  Fuel from the tank goes through the finger strainers, through about 15" of -6 Aeroquip AQP hose and then through 3/8" 5052 aluminum tubing to the header tank.  From the header tank through more 3/8" aluminum to the 40 micron filter then to the fuel shut off valve.  From here it transitions to 1/2" Mil 6000 hose for about 6" to the pumps then 5/16" Mil 6000 hose to the final filter (shown in pic) then to the fuel pressure regulator then to the carbs.



As you can see, this final filter is completely gummed and plugged up.  I can barely blow air through it.  As stated earlier, my other filters (before the mil 6000 hose) were clean.  So here is my diagnosis:  Mil 6000 hose is deteriorating and plugging the final filter which is not allowing enough fuel for the high throttle settings.  My engine is a 914 so cruise power is about 5.5 gph but full power is almost 9 gph.



Solution:  Get rid of all mil 6000 hose and replace with suitable Aeroquip hose or aluminum tubing.  I also see that Aircraft Spruce says specifically not to use the Mil 6000 with fuel.  Just as a note, I have checked my fuel source a couple times and have not found it to contain any ethanol

DSCF2750 (Large).JPG

Description:

The light brown is the filter element, the dark brown is??? Hose liner maybe?

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Viewed:

16021 Time(s)

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

I was reading your report and came to the entry "MIL 6000", and  

figured that was it. Somewhere in the past I had read about this  

stuff on this list, and made a mental note to not use that which came  

with my kit. I went with the SAE 30R7, and it has worked without fail.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:50 PM, darinh wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ok guys here is the skinny...about 2 months ago my engine started  

 to run a bit rough in the higher power ranges (80% and above) but  

 idle through 75% was good as always.  Now my engine only had 25 to  

 30 hours on it when this started.  I have been tinkering with  

 different things trying to figure it out but was not able to find  

 anything out of the ordinary.  I have suspected my fuel system  

 since this began and started with my finger strainers which were  

 clean.  Next my fuel goes through a 40 micron Earl's filter and it  

 was clean so I didn't bother checking the final filter right before  

 the engine.  I then moved to the carbs and they were fine.  So in a  

 last ditch effort, I decided to completely redo my fuel system  

 hoses and this is where I found the problem.



 Here is how the fuel is routed so you can follow.  Fuel from the  

 tank goes through the finger strainers, through about 15" of -6  

 Aeroquip AQP hose and then through 3/8" 5052 aluminum tubing to the  

 header tank.  From the header tank through more 3/8" aluminum to  

 the 40 micron filter then to the fuel shut off valve.  From here it  

 transitions to 1/2" Mil 6000 hose for about 6" to the pumps then  

 5/16" Mil 6000 hose to the final filter (shown in pic) then to the  

 fuel pressure regulator then to the carbs.



 As you can see, this final filter is completely gummed and plugged  

 up.  I can barely blow air through it.  As stated earlier, my other  

 filters (before the mil 6000 hose) were clean.  So here is my  

 diagnosis:  Mil 6000 hose is deteriorating and plugging the final  

 filter which is not allowing enough fuel for the high throttle  

 settings.  My engine is a 914 so cruise power is about 5.5 gph but  

 full power is almost 9 gph.



 Solution:  Get rid of all mil 6000 hose and replace with suitable  

 Aeroquip hose or aluminum tubing.  I also see that Aircraft Spruce  

 says specifically not to use the Mil 6000 with fuel.  Just as a  

 note, I have checked my fuel source a couple times and have not  

 found it to contain any ethanol



 --------

 Darin Hawkes

 Series 7

 914 Turbo

 Kaysville, Utah





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 32068#232068





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf2750_large_160.jpg

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Correct.  Lose all of the Milspec and go to the Aeroquip or good equivalent. 

It may not be the ethanol, but other chemicals in auto fuel that is causing 

a deterioration of the Milspec.  This stuff has been happening long before 

ethanol was being used.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 As you can see, this final filter is completely gummed and plugged up.  I 

 can barely blow air through it.  As stated earlier, my other filters 

 (before the mil 6000 hose) were clean.  So here is my diagnosis:  Mil 6000 

 hose is deteriorating and plugging the final filter which is not allowing 

 enough fuel for the high throttle settings.  My engine is a 914 so cruise 

 power is about 5.5 gph but full power is almost 9 gph.



 Solution:  Get rid of all mil 6000 hose and replace with suitable Aeroquip 

 hose or aluminum tubing.  I also see that Aircraft Spruce says 

 specifically not to use the Mil 6000 with fuel.  Just as a note, I have 

 checked my fuel source a couple times and have not found it to contain any 

 ethanol



 --------

 Darin Hawkes

 Series 7

 914 Turbo

 Kaysville, Utah





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 32068#232068





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf2750_large_160.jpg

kitfoxsport(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Goodyear now makes the SAE 30R9 that has a blue inner lining made for use with Ethanol and alternative fuels. It is very flexible without kinking and has a small outer diameter. Many auto parts, such as Autozone, stores sell it by the foot. SAE 30R9 is rated for fuel injection lines. 

  

 do not archive

 

   From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 11:21:05 AM

Subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>



I was reading your report and came to the entry "MIL 6000", and figured that was it. Somewhere in the past I had read about this stuff on this list, and made a mental note to not use that which came with my kit. I went with the SAE 30R7, and it has worked without fail.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair  direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:50 PM, darinh wrote:



[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net (gerns25(at)netscape.net)>

 

 Ok guys here is the skinny...about 2 months ago my engine started to run a bit rough in the higher power ranges (80% and above) but idle through 75% was good as always.  Now my engine only had 25 to 30 hours on it when this started.  I have been tinkering with different things trying to figure it out but was not able to find anything out of the ordinary.  I have suspected my fuel system since this began and started with my finger strainers which were clean.  Next my fuel goes through a 40 micron Earl's filter and it was clean so I didn't bother checking the final filter right before the engine.  I then moved to the  carbs and they were fine.  So in a last ditch effort, I decided to completely redo my fuel system hoses and this is where I found the problem.

 

 Here is how the fuel is routed so you can follow.  Fuel from the tank goes through the finger strainers, through about 15" of -6 Aeroquip AQP hose and then through 3/8" 5052 aluminum tubing to the header tank.  From the header tank through more 3/8" aluminum to the 40 micron filter then to the fuel shut off valve.  From here it transitions to 1/2" Mil 6000 hose for about 6" to the pumps then 5/16" Mil 6000 hose to the final filter (shown in pic) then to the fuel pressure regulator then to the carbs.

 

 As you can see, this final filter is completely gummed and plugged up.  I can barely blow air through it.  As stated earlier, my other filters (before the mil 6000 hose) were clean.  So here is my diagnosis:  Mil 6000 hose is deteriorating and  plugging the final filter which is not allowing enough fuel for the high throttle settings.  My engine is a 914 so cruise power is about 5.5 gph but full power is almost 9 gph.

 

 Solution:  Get rid of all mil 6000 hose and replace with suitable Aeroquip hose or aluminum tubing.  I also see that Aircraft Spruce says specifically not to use the Mil 6000 with fuel.  Just as a note, I have checked my fuel source a couple times and have not found it to contain any ethanol

 

 --------

 Darin Hawkes

 Series 7

 914 Turbo

 Kaysville, Utah

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 32068#232068]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 32068#232068[/url]

 

 

 

 

 Attachments:

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Deke, 



This is my thinking as well I know I have not run ethanol but the detergents and additives may be the issue.  Clint has used the Mil6000 for 1400 hours without issue but I think he runs 100LL...I could be wrong though.



I bought some Gates Multi-fuel fuel injection hose today that I am going to use for the 5/16" lines...the other stuff is Aeroquip.



Thanks for the replies.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

Last edited by darinh on Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

At 10:50 AM 2/25/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Solution:  Get rid of all mil 6000 hose and replace with suitable 

Aeroquip hose or aluminum tubing.  I also see that Aircraft Spruce 

says specifically not to use the Mil 6000 with fuel.  Just as a 

note, I have checked my fuel source a couple times and have not 

found it to contain any ethanol


	


Sorry to say, Darin, but this is really old news which I'm sorry you 

had to re-discover. I hope it still shows up in the archives. Most 

guys have gone to SAE fuel injection hose, though some, like me, 

still use the clear blue.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Is this the $12 per foot stuff? I was picking up some fuel line for  

my plane a few weeks ago, and couldn't remember what the number was,  

but thought it was fuel injection hose and the guy mentioned the  

price, and I *quickly* remembered that it wasn't THAT stuff. : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive

On Feb 25, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Kitfox George wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Goodyear now makes the SAE 30R9 that has a blue inner lining made  

 for use with Ethanol and alternative fuels. It is very flexible  

 without kinking and has a small outer diameter. Many auto parts,  

 such as Autozone, stores sell it by the foot. SAE 30R9 is rated for  

 fuel injection lines.

 do not archive

 From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 11:21:05 AM

 Subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

 I was reading your report and came to the entry "MIL 6000", and  

 figured that was it. Somewhere in the past I had read about this  

 stuff on this list, and made a mental note to not use that which  

 came with my kit. I went with the SAE 30R7, and it has worked  

 without fail.

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 Status: flying

 On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:50 PM, darinh wrote:

 > 

 >

 > Ok guys here is the skinny...about 2 months ago my engine started  

 to run a bit rough in the higher power ranges (80% and above) but  

 idle through 75% was good as always.  Now my engine only had 25 to  

 30 hours on it when this started.  I have been tinkering with  

 different things trying to figure it out but was not able to find  

 anything out of the ordinary.  I have suspected my fuel system  

 since this began and started with my finger strainers which were  

 clean.  Next my fuel goes through a 40 micron Earl's filter and it  

 was clean so I didn't bother checking the final filter right before  

 the engine.  I then moved to the carbs and they were fine.  So in a  

 last ditch effort, I decided to completely redo my fuel system  

 hoses and this is where I found the problem.

 >

 > Here is how the fuel is routed so you can follow.  Fuel from the  

 tank goes through the finger strainers, through about 15" of -6  

 Aeroquip AQP hose and then through 3/8" 5052 aluminum tubing to the  

 header tank.  From the header tank through more 3/8" aluminum to  

 the 40 micron filter then to the fuel shut off valve.  From here it  

 transitions to 1/2" Mil 6000 hose for about 6" to the pumps then  

 5/16" Mil 6000 hose to the final filter (shown in pic) then to the  

 fuel pressure regulator then to the carbs.

 >

 > As you can see, this final filter is completely gummed and  

 plugged up.  I can barely blow air through it.  As stated earlier,  

 my other filters (before the mil 6000 hose) were clean.  So here is  

 my diagnosis:  Mil 6000 hose is deteriorating and plugging the  

 final filter which is not allowing enough fuel for the high  

 throttle settings.  My engine is a 914 so cruise power is about 5.5  

 gph but full power is almost 9 gph.

 >

 > Solution:  Get rid of all mil 6000 hose and replace with suitable  

 Aeroquip hose or aluminum tubing.  I also see that Aircraft Spruce  

 says specifically not to use the Mil 6000 with fuel.  Just as a  

 note, I have checked my fuel source a couple times and have not  

 found it to contain any ethanol

 >

 > --------

 > Darin Hawkes

 > Series 7

 > 914 Turbo

 > Kaysville, Utah

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 32068#232068

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Attachments:

 >

 >_- 

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 

 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 

 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 

 _- 

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 

 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 

 =3D   --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution_- 

 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 

 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 

 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

I use mostly Hi Octane Chevron except when I fly cross country.  Put over 5 C000 gal of fuel through Mil 6000.   After removing portions the line C it  would be difficult to tell from new.  I would like a piece of that bad fuel line that I keep hearing about to test. 

  

 Clint

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

 From: gerns25(at)netscape.net

 Date: Wed C 25 Feb 2009 14:44:58 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net>

 

 Guy C 

 

 This is my thinking as well I know I have not run ethanol but the detergents and additives may be the issue. Clint has used the Mil6000 for 1400 hours without issue but I think he runs 100LL...I could be wrong though.

 

 I bought some Gates Multi-fuel fuel injection hose today that I am going to use for the 5/16" lines...the other stuff is Aeroquip.

 

 Thanks for the replies.

 

 --------

 Darin Hawkes

 Series 7 

 914 Turbo

 Kaysville C Utah

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232113#232113

 

 

 

 

&gt=======================
	


&g==================

[quote] 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Clint,

   When a local Kitfox went  down in a meadow here ,the line was cut off and it had actually swollen  shut. I don't know what caused it ,but it was running mogas. I have run mogas in  my Tripacer for years w/ MilSpec 6000 line and have never had any problems. I  wish I knew what did it. As I remember,Don Smythe did some research,but I don't  know that he reached any conclusion.

  Facts are :

 A few pieces of 6000 have swollen shut and brought  down aircraft.

 A lot of aircraft have flown for many hrs on 6000 with no  problem.

 As far as I know,no one knows what has caused the  problem.(I somehow doubt it is alcohol),but I sure wouldn't bet on  it.

 We know different gasolines have a variety of different  additives.

  

  I have used KwikFil for years with no problem, so  will probably continue,but i wouldn't bet on that being sound practice  either.

   What line does anyone KNOW is good for both 100LL  and mogas? I am in the process of rebuilding two different aircraft and would  like to know.

                                       Larry Huntley Kitfox4-1200 Soob, Tripacer  Lyc 160,Funk B75L Lyc GO-145, Dundee,NY

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Service Letter #45 has a caution about oxygenated fuel deteriorating the Mil spec fuel line.



Here's the quote from that service letter.



"In addition to the tanks, the fuel lines which are used in the aircraft may be susceptible to deterioration from these fuels, including the aviation-grade MIL-spec hose which is currently supplied with the aircraft. Because of this, SkyStar does not endorse the use of any oxygenated fuels except those which have MTBE added to them."



Direct link to service bulletin #45. The reference to Mil spec hose is at the bottom of the last page.

http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_letters/sl45.htm

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Clint, 



I would be happy to send you a piece of the line but please explain how you intend to test it as I am curious?  I only have small sections, none long enough to install for use.



Tom,



I find it interesting that they say oxygenated fuel deteriorates Mil spec fuel line as the manufactures listed in the military spec (Gates and Thermoid) both list the line to be completely compatible with alcohol.  Who are we supposed to believe?  And my fuel is not oxygenated.



http://www.hbdthermoid.com/images/aviation_ducting/Aeroduct.pdf



Check out page 4...it doesn't say fuel anywhere in the description.  Also, Aircraft Spruce specifically says that the Mil6000 is "Not recommended for fuel line".



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/mil6000.php



At this point, I really don't care if people have used this hose successfully for a million hours...there are enough documented cases of problems that I am getting rid of it.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

kitfoxsport(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:10 pm Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Lynn,

   Sounds like the right price range for this stuff, but my local California Autozone store states the 5/16" Goodyear SAE j30r9 injector hose with the blue lining is $3.99 per foot.  Notice I keep saying BLUE LINING!

  

 I have been around for a little while but changed my email address from michaega. No that does not mean I know much.  But I have been know to hit my head against the wall once in awhile for a better solution.

 

George  

 Sport Model - 914 / painting  



 

   From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:03:50 PM

Subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>



Is this the $12 per foot stuff? I was picking up some fuel line for my plane a few weeks ago, and couldn't remember what the number was, but thought it was fuel injection hose and the guy mentioned the price, and I *quickly* remembered that it wasn't THAT stuff. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition  system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Feb 25, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Kitfox George wrote:



[quote] Goodyear now makes the SAE 30R9 that has a blue inner lining made for use with Ethanol and alternative fuels. It is very flexible without kinking and has a small outer diameter. Many auto parts, such as Autozone, stores sell it by the foot. SAE 30R9 is rated for fuel injection lines.

 

 do not archive

 

 From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)

 Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 11:21:05 AM

 Subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>

 

 I was reading your report and came to the entry "MIL 6000", and figured that was it. Somewhere in the past I had read about this stuff on this list, and made a mental note to not use that which came with my kit. I went with the SAE 30R7, and it has worked without fail.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 Status: flying

 

 

 

 

 On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:50 PM, darinh wrote:

 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net (gerns25(at)netscape.net)>

 >

 > Ok guys here is the skinny...about 2 months ago my engine started to run a bit rough in the higher power ranges (80% and above)  but idle through 75% was good as always.  Now my engine only had 25 to 30 hours on it when this started.  I have been tinkering with different things trying to figure it out but was not able to find anything out of the ordinary.  I have suspected my fuel system since this began and started with my finger strainers which were clean.  Next my fuel goes through a 40 micron Earl's filter and it was clean so I didn't bother checking the final filter right before the engine.  I then moved to the carbs and they were fine.  So in a last ditch effort, I decided to completely redo my fuel system hoses and this is where I found the problem.

 >

 > Here is how the fuel is routed so you can follow.  Fuel from the tank goes through the finger strainers, through about 15" of -6 Aeroquip AQP hose and then through 3/8" 5052 aluminum tubing to the header tank.  From the header tank through more 3/8" aluminum to  the 40 micron filter then to the fuel shut off valve.  From here it transitions to 1/2" Mil 6000 hose for about 6" to the pumps then 5/16" Mil 6000 hose to the final filter (shown in pic) then to the fuel pressure regulator then to the carbs.

 >

 > As you can see, this final filter is completely gummed and plugged up.  I can barely blow air through it.  As stated earlier, my other filters (before the mil 6000 hose) were clean.  So here is my diagnosis:  Mil 6000 hose is deteriorating and plugging the final filter which is not allowing enough fuel for the high throttle settings.  My engine is a 914 so cruise power is about 5.5 gph but full power is almost 9 gph.

 >

 > Solution:  Get rid of all mil 6000 hose and replace with suitable Aeroquip hose or aluminum tubing.  I also see that Aircraft Spruce says specifically not to use the Mil 6000 with fuel.  Just as a note, I  have checked my fuel source a couple times and have not found it to contain any ethanol

 >

 > --------

 > Darin Hawkes

 > Series 7

 > 914 Turbo

 > Kaysville, Utah

 >

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 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 32068#232068]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 32068#232068[/url]

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 [quote][b]

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

I bought some Gates fuel injection hose that is SAE30R9 spec also from a local hose supplier.  It says on the hose that it is multi-fuel compatible.  Here is a link to the Goodyear stuff.



http://www.goodyearep.com/ProductsDetail.aspx?id=14912



A check of Autozone's website though shows it at $12.99 for a 5/16" x 18" piece which is closer to $9.00 per foot.  I paid $6 something a foot for the Gates SAE30R9 hose.  $3.99 per foot is more in line with the fuel emission hose that your local shops sell.  But if you can get the SAE30r9 for that price your getting a great deal.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

One of the problems  may be that there are as many recipes for mogas out there as there are brands and “tests” of gas.  In fact there may be more recipes as several oil companies actually change their recipes with the seasons so the gas you get in September is not be the same as what you got in July in some instances.  

   

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley

 Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 4:09 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???  

  

  

     

Clint,  

    

  When a local Kitfox went down in a meadow here ,the line was cut off and it had actually swollen shut. I don't know what caused it ,but it was running mogas. I have run mogas in my Tripacer for years w/ MilSpec 6000 line and have never had any problems. I wish I knew what did it. As I remember,Don Smythe did some research,but I don't know that he reached any conclusion.  

    

 Facts are :  

    

A few pieces of 6000 have swollen shut and brought down aircraft.  

    

A lot of aircraft have flown for many hrs on 6000 with no problem.  

    

As far as I know,no one knows what has caused the problem.(I somehow doubt it is alcohol),but I sure wouldn't bet on it.  

    

We know different gasolines have a variety of different additives.  

    

   

    

 I have used KwikFil for years with no problem, so will probably continue,but i wouldn't bet on that being sound practice either.  

    

  What line does anyone KNOW is good for both 100LL and mogas? I am in the process of rebuilding two different aircraft and would like to know.  

    

                                    Larry Huntley Kitfox4-1200 Soob, Tripacer Lyc 160,Funk B75L Lyc GO-145, Dundee,NY  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Clint Bazzill (clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com)   

    

To: Kitfox list (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 1:29 PM  

    

Subject: RE: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???  

    

   

  

I use mostly Hi Octane Chevron except when I fly cross country.  Put over 5,000 gal of fuel through Mil 6000.   After removing portions the line, it  would be difficult to tell from new.  I would like a piece of that bad fuel line that I keep hearing about to test. 

  

 Clint

  

 > Subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

 > From: gerns25(at)netscape.net

 > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:44:58 -0800

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net>

 > 

 > Guy, 

 > 

 > This is my thinking as well I know I have not run ethanol but the detergents and additives may be the issue. Clint has used the Mil6000 for 1400 hours without issue but I think he runs 100LL...I could be wrong though.

 > 

 > I bought some Gates Multi-fuel fuel injection hose today that I am going to use for the 5/16" lines...the other stuff is Aeroquip.

 > 

 > Thanks for the replies.

 > 

 > --------

 > Darin Hawkes

 > Series 7 

 > 914 Turbo

 > Kaysville, Utah

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Read this topic online here:

 > 

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232113#232113

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

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       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Problem may be that it is something else in the MOGAS other than alcohol

that causes the swelling.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

kitfoxsport(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Darin,

  

 I believe you live in Utah

  

 Okay, you can tell I have to much time on my hands waiting for the paint to dry. I called the Provo, UT  Autzone store and if you buy the fuel line hose from their bulk roll it's $3.99 a foot. Their prepackaged stuff is expensive.  

  

 I'm done now and will say no more. 

  

George  

 Sport Model - 914 / painting

do not archive  



 

   From: darinh <gerns25(at)netscape.net>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 3:48:56 PM

Subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net (gerns25(at)netscape.net)>



I bought some Gates fuel injection hose that is SAE30R9 spec also from a local hose supplier.  It says on the hose that it is multi-fuel compatible.  Here is a link to the Goodyear stuff.



http://www.goodyearep.com/ProductsDetail.aspx?id=14912



A check of Autozone's [quote][b]

Vic Baker

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Carson City, Nevada

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Just found some at our local Kragen store at $4.95  per ft.  (Goodyear)   

  

  

  

 Vic Baker

S7 912S Warp

Phase 1 flight testing

Carson City,  Nv

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Vic Baker
Series 7
Carson City, Nevada

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

For what it is worth.  Here in California, we have fuel specifications that 

are very stringent - so much so that if we have a refinery problem, no other 

state can help with the supply.  However, this does not mean that all the 

blends aavailable here are the same, only that they all meet the measurable 

standards.  I suspect that the same will hold for any mil spec certified 

part.  It must meet certain specifications, but I am personally convinced 

that all Mil 6000 hose does not have the exact same formulation.



That one set of hose works and onother does not - at least in my mind - 

means that at least two different formulations meet the specification, but 

one handles mogas well and the other does not.  I think there is too much 

evidence that mil 6000 is not predictably satisfactory for mogas with or 

without ethanol.  Also keep in mind that the majority of the talk on the 

list regarding Mil 6000 was long before ethanol was introduced to the 

formula of mogas and as was mentioned, many posts on this subject are 

available in the archives.



Lowell



---

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

As an update...I got all the hoses replace and the filter changed out to a new clear filter and sure enough, the engine hit 5730 rpm on a static run so all is well now.  I bought myself a new gadget called a Carbmate electonic carb synchronizer that is awesome...I will post a new thread and discuss my thoughts on for anyone interested.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

Rich L

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Gummed up Fuel Filter - Any Ideas???

Thank you Darin for your timely posting on fuel lines.  Because of you and another kitfox owner who said he changes his fuel lines every two years, I decided to change mine out.  Here is what I found.  I had a mix of 30R7, 6000, and Gates CS091206 C200??? From the wing tanks to the  header, I had Tygon B44-4.  I have 316 hours since DAR in August 07. All the lines seemed ok except for the Tygon.  It was about 3/4 the size of the new Tygon I had and really brown and brittle.  It actually cracked when I tried to straighten it out.  I have only run 91 octane non ethanol fuel.  I have replaced all the lines with Goodyear 30R9 at $5 a foot but I feel its worth it. Here is the Goodyear site with some good words on the stuff.

http://www.goodyearep.com/ProductsDetail.aspx?id=5144



Thanks for the heads up.

Rich L

Kitfox S-7, 912uls

Bonners Ferry,IDAHO

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