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It Flew! Cooling.
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

Thanks Rick, yes you MUST miss your toy. I'm so impressed how well my bird 

flies, smooth and controls feel as good as a Beaver... I've only done 6 

circs so far so not tested much in the cruise yet. About to have another fly 

today. Oil temp seems good, the engine is pulling around 5psi of boost, is 

that compatable with what yours used to do? John

From: "wingsdown" <wingsdown(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: It Flew! Cooling.

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:24:03 -0800






--

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

Thanks Kurt, no where would I get one of those... big rad. If you could give 

me the dimensions I could look at getting one made as big cost to get one 

sent all this way from State side. John

From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:23:56 -0800 (PST)




<smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>



Hi John,



With those temps and OAT, you might get what you want

from just changing to the big alum radiator.  That

should be an easy change for you if you can get your

hands on one.



Your pics show a lot of great work and invention by

you.  You deserve to see that plane fly embarrassingly

well.    Sorry if your friends with store bought

planes won't talk to you after riding in your's later.

    Ha ha



If you take a side picture of your complete plane and

turn it upside down as in inverted flight, you can

suddenly see where the front of the cowl is a high

lift (low pressure) area.  We are used to seeing this

on our wings, but the air doesn't know right side up

from inverted, so we miss seeing what the air is doing

here because of our point of view.  We tend to think

of lift only going up, but it doesn't.



Bugs show you dynamic pressure, but not static

pressure.  In this place on the cowl the 2 are in

conflict.



VG's would net you a little more dynamic pressure, but

the bigger radiator might take care of it all.



I also have my radiator air and cowl air seperated and

agree that is the best route for cooling.



Got to go to work now.  Hope you can get an alum

radiator and fly it in confidence from then on.



Kurt S.

--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 > Sorry Kurt, I wrote this below in a rush but I think

 > you'll get my gist. I uploaded so shots at

 >

http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=view&epoch=1142915948.

 >

 > John

 >

 > Hmm Kurt, I thought that area is still pretty high

 > pressure still where I

 > have the inlet and where the radiator is is low

 > pressure. If you look at the

 > cowel around that area, thats were all the bugs hit

 > and that's usually high

 > pressure. The plenum area to the radiator is

 > seperate from the engine air

 > except for the lower part of the sump (cooling piped

 > and finned) and this

 > sees the radiator air also. My temps are oil, around

 > 190 F approx (we all

 > C here) and water water 210F approx 110C. I also

 > have an Earls heater

 > cooler also in the heater circ which is hooked to

 > the water/oli cooler and

 > turbo. I've opened the exit area to the main cowl a

 > bit so hope this will

 > enhance the airflow to this radiator and help the

 > intercooler as it exhausts

 > into this area. The OAT is around 23c. John



Read the latest Hollywood gossip  (at)  http://xtramsn.co.nz/entertainment

trebla(at)directinter.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

I looked at the pics. Nice setup. How is the cowl seal to the radiator? I

also had to put cowl behind the radiator to keep the air from boiling up

behind it and reducing flow through it. Also had to manage the airflow over

the engine through the cowl to help as much as possible.

Albert Smith

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

I am not sure what altitude you are stating from, but if you are using

stock turbo pistons you should be at about 7PSI boost at sea level. The

stock pot is set to that. Again depends on RPM for gas flow to spin the

turbine. If your RPM is at 5200 or higher you should be showing 7PSI.

What turbo are you using? Infact with the fuel injection and intercooler

I would expect you could easily adjust up to 12PSI with no problems. But

if your not getting red of the heat your making, little sense in that. I

found the larger turbo model aluminum radiator provided by NSI to be

adequate for cooling, but its placement was critical for getting enough

air flow on the ground and at high AOA on full power climbs. I think you

have an excellent start with the design you have. May need more aft

radiator cowl work and design, possibly a ground or climb cooling fan.

Let me know if you have any specific questions. So many ways to skin a

cat.

Do you have a way to measure your intake temps or the delta across the

intercooler?



Rick



--

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

Hi John,



Right now I am on your side of the equator and a long

way from my Fox, so I am sorry I cant measure it just

yet.  That I remember, the face is 6 inches high by 20

wide and 4 inches thick.  This does not include the

closed ends that are about 2 inches wide on both

sides.



Rick or another turbo driver might be able to get the

actual dimensions for you sooner.



I think it is the same frontal area as yours and

should slip right in so you can keep the cowl the

same.  It is just thicker.  You could just design a

replacement like that.  Same front, but twice as

thick.  The aluminum rad was hardly any heavier than

the brass one too, even though it was bigger.



Hope this helps.



Kurt S.



--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks Kurt, no where would I get one of those...

 big rad. If you could give 

 me the dimensions I could look at getting one made

 as big cost to get one 

 sent all this way from State side. John

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

Rick,



Oh wise turbo man....  I have about a 10 degree rise

from OAT across my oil cooler in cruise.  (As measured

by a temp bulb behind the cooler)  I expected more. 

Is this normal, or am I sized wrong for the airflow?



Kurt S.

 	  Quote: 	
		   ...Do you have a way to measure your intake temps or

 the delta across the intercooler?

 

 Rick

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:16 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

Thanks for that Kurt. Well, I think I found the problem as suggested. After 

running the engine until the temp was right up, I left it idling and got out 

and fely the radiator and - bingo- the botom was STONE cold!! So all I can 

say is the the small heater one is working reall well to keep the temps 

where they were! So I'll get the feed end tank removed and so what goes but 

it certainly is not flowing!! I'll let you know, do you have any data on the 

other reported defective unit? John

From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:59:12 -0800 (PST)

<smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

Hi John,

Right now I am on your side of the equator and a long

way from my Fox, so I am sorry I cant measure it just

yet.  That I remember, the face is 6 inches high by 20

wide and 4 inches thick.  This does not include the

closed ends that are about 2 inches wide on both

sides.

Rick or another turbo driver might be able to get the

actual dimensions for you sooner.

I think it is the same frontal area as yours and

should slip right in so you can keep the cowl the

same.  It is just thicker.  You could just design a

replacement like that.  Same front, but twice as

thick.  The aluminum rad was hardly any heavier than

the brass one too, even though it was bigger.

Hope this helps.

Kurt S.

--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 > Thanks Kurt, no where would I get one of those...

 > big rad. If you could give

 > me the dimensions I could look at getting one made

 > as big cost to get one

 > sent all this way from State side. John

Check out the latest video  (at)  http://xtra.co.nz/streaming

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:22 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

My plan to measure the delta T once I get cooling sorted, you'll see my note 

to Kurt re the rad. Sea level and I have an EA82 turbo, the idea being it 

would not be getting it neck rung out at the higher revs compared the 

automotive use. But from how the engine is going and power available, I 

thing I'd prob be cruising around 4k or a little higher, not 5 like the 

normall aspirated chaps seem to be. John

From: "wingsdown" <wingsdown(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: It Flew! Cooling.

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:40:14 -0800






I am not sure what altitude you are stating from, but if you are using

stock turbo pistons you should be at about 7PSI boost at sea level. The

stock pot is set to that. Again depends on RPM for gas flow to spin the

turbine. If your RPM is at 5200 or higher you should be showing 7PSI.

What turbo are you using? Infact with the fuel injection and intercooler

I would expect you could easily adjust up to 12PSI with no problems. But

if your not getting red of the heat your making, little sense in that. I

found the larger turbo model aluminum radiator provided by NSI to be

adequate for cooling, but its placement was critical for getting enough

air flow on the ground and at high AOA on full power climbs. I think you

have an excellent start with the design you have. May need more aft

radiator cowl work and design, possibly a ground or climb cooling fan.

Let me know if you have any specific questions. So many ways to skin a

cat.

Do you have a way to measure your intake temps or the delta across the

intercooler?



Rick



--

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:25 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

Cowl seal is good Abert, what shape etc is you exit cowl? Does it reduce to 

speed up the air again? John

From: "Comp User" <trebla(at)directinter.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:50:43 -0700

I looked at the pics. Nice setup. How is the cowl seal to the radiator? I

also had to put cowl behind the radiator to keep the air from boiling up

behind it and reducing flow through it. Also had to manage the airflow over

the engine through the cowl to help as much as possible.

Albert Smith

Discover fun and games at  (at)  http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

I am not sure then John. The EA-82 is a bit different. Depending on

turbo size the 5 PSI boost may be right for the RPMs your turning. The

Turbo EA-81 torque band is between 3800 and 4200. So in cruise I would

suspect you should be fine. I wouldn't lug the engine on take off 5200

for best not most power, but also no need with that engine to run 6200

for most power either. AS you know there are a lot of variables to

consider when you have a turbo. Do you have an in-flight adjustable

prop? Just am aside you should be able to run LOP with that injector set

up which will save you some fuel, besides the Subaru likes lean anyway. 

Another aside. Should for some reason you engine quite suddenly and it

didn't blow up. I would pull the fuel immediately then try restart. If

you don't there is a good chance the turbo will continue to spool and

pull fuel into the cylinders and wet them severely enough that a restart

might not happen. OK, old here, never mind you are hi teck injected

engine not crab or Ellison. 



Rick



--

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

Humm, you mean from the inlet not OAT? The OAT is not the starting

point. It would be the oil temperature drop from the oil inlet to outlet

side. The air is being heated by the oil but has no relation to what the

drop in oil temp is across the cooler. No doubt there is a rise on both

ends. One thing I would recommend in an oil thermostat like the one I

installed from Mocal. But like all things open to another's perspective.

Mine worked very well and regulated oil temp great. I think more

important than the size of the cooler is its placement for air flow.

Going back, I am not saying the OAT is not relative but for what your

looking for not so much now. What is you full power climb peak oil temp

and cruise oil temp?



Rick 



--

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

No, just ground adjusable Rick. You wrote? (Just am aside you should be able 

to run LOP with that injector set up which will save you some fuel, besides 

the Subaru likes lean anyway.)?? Not sure what you mean here? And with EFI, 

if the engine quits the fuel will stop as the signal wil be gone, right? 

John A.

From:  "wingsdown" <wingsdown(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  RE: It Flew! Cooling.

Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:01:53 -0800




I am not sure then John. The EA-82 is a bit different. Depending on

turbo size the 5 PSI boost may be right for the RPMs your turning. The

Turbo EA-81 torque band is between 3800 and 4200. So in cruise I would

suspect you should be fine. I wouldn't lug the engine on take off 5200

for best not most power, but also no need with that engine to run 6200

for most power either. AS you know there are a lot of variables to

consider when you have a turbo. Do you have an in-flight adjustable

prop? Just am aside you should be able to run LOP with that injector set

up which will save you some fuel, besides the Subaru likes lean anyway.

Another aside. Should for some reason you engine quite suddenly and it

didn't blow up. I would pull the fuel immediately then try restart. If

you don't there is a good chance the turbo will continue to spool and

pull fuel into the cylinders and wet them severely enough that a restart

might not happen. OK, old here, never mind you are hi teck injected

engine not crab or Ellison.



Rick



--

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

Yep, I think if had had a EFI I would still be flying. LOP is lean of

peak. If your not familiar with it you might want to do your own

research and come to your on opinion. There is much controversy. But if

it was good enough for war time when it all counted on getting there and

home I think it has many advantages even beyond fuel savings.



Rick 



--

trebla(at)directinter.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

I threw a couple of pics on sportflight of the exit area.



http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=view&epoch=1143081145



Albert Smith

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

Is that the NSI radiator Albert?

From:  "Comp User" <trebla(at)directinter.net>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  Re: It Flew! Cooling.

Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:38:25 -0700

I threw a couple of pics on sportflight of the exit area.

http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=view&epoch=1143081145

Albert Smith

Need a new job? Check out XtraMSN Careers http://xtramsn.co.nz/careers

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

My EFI is lap top reprogramable with an LED readout in the c/pit so I have 

it all set to read green, nice for dummys...

From: "wingsdown" <wingsdown(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: It Flew! Cooling.

Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 18:28:07 -0800

Yep, I think if had had a EFI I would still be flying. LOP is lean of

peak. If your not familiar with it you might want to do your own

research and come to your on opinion. There is much controversy. But if

it was good enough for war time when it all counted on getting there and

home I think it has many advantages even beyond fuel savings.

Rick

--

shaun-s(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling.

take me off your list



John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:  



My EFI is lap top reprogramable with an LED readout in the c/pit so I have 

it all set to read green, nice for dummys...

From: "wingsdown" 

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: 

Subject: RE: It Flew! Cooling.

Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 18:28:07 -0800






Yep, I think if had had a EFI I would still be flying. LOP is lean of

peak. If your not familiar with it you might want to do your own

research and come to your on opinion. There is much controversy. But if

it was good enough for war time when it all counted on getting there and

home I think it has many advantages even beyond fuel savings.



Rick



--

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