Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Near disaster
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:33 am Post subject: Near disaster

Just to throw in some more fodder for debate, I have 2 finger  

strainers (one in each tank), and three filters....one in each  

downline from the tank and before the header, and one after the  

header. These filters are the Purolator glass filters in the 5/16"  

fuel line size and since the first application of fuel into the  

Kreemed fuel tanks, I haven't seen any crap in these filters. Maybe  

that means I don't need all these filters, but I'm not taking them  

out. My engine runs on gravity feed only. I have removed all the  

pumps (engine mechanical, and back-up electric) because the location  

of my carburetor is at a position where gravity alone feeds all the  

fuel necessary. The reason I like the filters in the down lines, is  

so that if I get a bad batch of fuel, or dirt in the fuel I can see  

it immediately...the glass filters are visible just above the top of  

the back of the seat, and just below the two fuel shut-offs (for  

service only). My system flows 12.3 gallons per hour if I recall  

correctly. I should take another reading now that I've installed the  

Northstar F210 fuel flow meter, and see what it says the flow rate  

is. When I checked the flow rate before I installed the flow meter,  

it was through the carb inlet. So that much fuel is getting through  

the carb.



p.s. I have all "rubber" fuel lines...automotive 30R7



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:16 PM, darinh wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I agree with Deke...there is no need for filters before the header  

 tank.  When I say I have 3 filters, I am including my finger  

 strainers as one.  I have an Earl's filter before the pumps and a  

 final filter forward of the firewall just before it goes into the  

 pressure regulator.  Had my final filter not been there, all that  

 disintegrated hose material would have ended up in my pressure  

 regulator and carbs so it did serve a purpose.  After changing the  

 hose, it is probably overkill to have the last filter but it is there.



 --------

 Darin Hawkes

 Series 7

 914 Turbo

 Kaysville, Utah





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 36799#236799

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject: Near disaster

Jim,



You have received a lot of information worth looking into.. Take a close

look at the fuel pump.  I have seen this a few times.  Works great for

run-up, taxi etc... but not delivering what's required at the higher RPM's

during T/O. 



Give a call if we can be of help.

Fly Safe !!

John McBean

Ph 208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.com 

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground" 



--

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Near disaster

 	  darinh wrote: 	
		  I agree with Deke...there is no need for filters before the header tank.  When I say I have 3 filters, I am including my finger strainers as one.  I have an Earl's filter before the pumps and a final filter forward of the firewall just before it goes into the pressure regulator.  Had my final filter not been there, all that disintegrated hose material would have ended up in my pressure regulator and carbs so it did serve a purpose.  After changing the hose, it is probably overkill to have the last filter but it is there. 	




What kind of pressure regulator do you use ?  Do you have a 912 ?  This is the first I have heard about putting a pressure regulator in the fuel line before the 912, am I missing something ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Near disaster

Hi Mike,



Maybe it was a misquote. There should be no pressure regulator on the 912. You should how ever be at least using the Rotax manual operated pump on the side of the gearbox. It supplies the correct pressure to the carbs. (2.2 - 5.8 psi). Just a gravity fed system would have to be tested for delivered pressure, but I would bet it is too low and because of that during certain flight maneuvers starve the carbs. If you have a low feeding tank then a back up Facet fuel pump rated at the proper psi should be plumbed in parallel as a back up. The manual fuel pump was installed for a reason and should not be removed. My FD CT is a high wing and could operate off a gravity feed, but it should not. When the pump fails it fails open. Plus you are supposed to have a recirculating line to help prevent vapor lock. The fuel pump is in the system to help circulate the fuel. With Rotax having spent millions of dollars and millions of hours testing their engine and helped fix all the owner messed up engines why would anyone want to be a test subject with an $18K engine?

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: Near disaster

My set-up was exactly like Lynns, and will be the same in my new build. 

When descending once from the 10,000 ft necessary to clear the Sierras, I 

watched the fuel in the filters as the tanks drained to check the operation 

of my low fuel indicator.   (Consider that I was in a 400 fpm descent that 

eventually unported the wing tanks).  Shortly after the last of the flow 

passed the glass encased filters, the low fuel light came on.  I can't count 

the number of times I looked at the filters to gauge fuel flow.  It is sort 

of like the drip chamber in an IV.  You can see flow of the fuel when low 

vs. just seeing the fuel in a transparent line and having no clue if it is 

moving.



I respect rules and other's ideas, but wonder about removing a filter after 

it has caught something.  I recall the original Kreem controversy when the 

Kreem came sheeting off one of the first Alaska flyers and clogged the 

finger strainer.  All of a sudden there was talk on the list of removing the 

finger strainers to eliminate that problem.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

building new



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:36 am Post subject: Near disaster

Yikes!  (to the thought of removing the finger strainers...that would  

be tantamount to eliminating the oil filter because you found some  

junk in it)



I've reported here before about being able to see the fuel presence  

in both the glass filters, and the clear vent line, while descending,  

and watching the fuel "level" in the vent line predict the eventual  

turn-on of the low-fuel warning light...this is with low fuel in the  

tanks, and the eventual unporting of the tanks. Seeing this, I was  

able to flatten out the glide and restore fuel into the lines, the  

light goes out, and all is well for another 15 minutes or so, while a  

refueling station is sought out. : )  (Damn, just my luck that the  

airborne refueling tankers are taking a coffee break)



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 31, 2009, at 10:11 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



[quote] 

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



 My set-up was exactly like Lynns, and will be the same in my new  

 build. When descending once from the 10,000 ft necessary to clear  

 the Sierras, I watched the fuel in the filters as the tanks drained  

 to check the operation of my low fuel indicator.   (Consider that I  

 was in a 400 fpm descent that eventually unported the wing tanks).   

 Shortly after the last of the flow passed the glass encased  

 filters, the low fuel light came on.  I can't count the number of  

 times I looked at the filters to gauge fuel flow.  It is sort of  

 like the drip chamber in an IV.  You can see flow of the fuel when  

 low vs. just seeing the fuel in a transparent line and having no  

 clue if it is moving.



 I respect rules and other's ideas, but wonder about removing a  

 filter after it has caught something.  I recall the original Kreem  

 controversy when the Kreem came sheeting off one of the first  

 Alaska flyers and clogged the finger strainer.  All of a sudden  

 there was talk on the list of removing the finger strainers to  

 eliminate that problem.



 Lowell Fitt

 Cameron Park, CA

 Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

 building new



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Near disaster

I think this fuel system setup will be best, and is how I plan on building my Kitfox.   I don't want to rely on a little gravity pressure to drive fuel through a filter, so I will not do that that with this system.  Finger strainers in the tanks , then fuel lines to a T at the bottom of the airplane where it will go into the header tank.  After the header tank have the gascolator at the low point ( has a pretty fine screen built in ).  Then from gascolator to the Electric Facet fuel pump, then to a 10 Micron Stainless Steel Mesh filter the to the engine driven fuel pump then to the carbs.



Any thoughts and comments on this setup would be appreciated.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: Near disaster

Why the gascolator?  Seems redundant to me.  Your header tank is already 

filling that square.  The rest sounds good.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: Near disaster

Why have a T before you go into the header tank? My header tank  

(factory supplied, via Deke...I still owe you a beer or 12, Deke) has  

two inlets, and I used them both. With a T before the header, you  

have just cut in half the probability that fuel will be able to enter  

the header tank.....slim chance of something getting into there and  

clogging the down leg of the T, but Mr. Murphy will see to it that it  

does.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:24 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I think this fuel system setup will be best, and is how I plan on  

 building my Kitfox.   I don't want to rely on a little gravity  

 pressure to drive fuel through a filter, so I will not do that that  

 with this system.  Finger strainers in the tanks , then fuel lines  

 to a T at the bottom of the airplane where it will go into the  

 header tank.  After the header tank have the gascolator at the low  

 point ( has a pretty fine screen built in ).  Then from gascolator  

 to the Electric Facet fuel pump, then to a 10 Micron Stainless  

 Steel Mesh filter the to the engine driven fuel pump then to the  

 carbs.



 Any thoughts and comments on this setup would be appreciated.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 37226#237226

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Near disaster

Hi Mike,



You shouldn't run your electric pump in series with the mechanical pump. It should be in parallel. This set up was just one of the reasons Rotax had that fuel pump recall. As carb internal parts wear you may get fuel leakage too.  I just went through this with another pilot with a pump in series and he had over flow problems caused by pressure. It is recommended to be parallel. When I had my dual pump set up (in parallel) I only used the electric if I would have ever had a fuel issue. I put 960 hrs. on that Rotax 912ULS and never a miss on the engine. I have a high wing fuel tank setup now so I don't use or need an electric pump. Pumps fail open.  Several aircraft Mfg's. that have duel pumps now have set them up in parallel. In parallel will still be a good system, but without any headaches.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: Near disaster

Mike,



It sounds a little bit complicated to me.



I like the filters between the wing tanks and the header tank for the simple 

reason that if a filter clogs - both clog as a worst case scenario,  I still 

should have 30 or so minutes of flying time after the low fuel indicator 

flashes.  I had no other filters down stream from that.  My early Model IV 

had the high mounted header tank so the gascolator was included in the 

system.  I checked it at annual and never found anything (eight years). 

Likely this time, the glass Puralator filters between the wing tank and 

header tank will again be the only filters in the system.  I can't imagine 

foreign material getting past the filters and into a closed system.



The only thing I recall from times past is that the fuel shut off valve 

Skystar sent with the kit had "O" ring seals and the early ones were not 

fuel friendly and some problems occurred then that a filter would correct 

down stream from that.  The new "O"rings are now compatable.



I was prepared to mention that I had 909 hours with no fuel related 

problems, but that would not be completely accurate as I replaced the engine 

compartment fuel lines once and in tightening the clamps around the fire 

sleeve, I got a bit rambunctious and pinched off the fuel line a bit.  It 

idled fine, but I sucked the float bowls dry after about 100 ft. of climb 

and had to nurse it a bit to do the return to land downwind - the engine 

never quit.



One more thing regarding the finger strainers.  At annual, I once found a 

piece of black rubber approximately the size of half a pencil erasor in one 

wing rank after removing the finger strainer for inspection.  It was the 

perfect size to be sucked into the fuel line and completerly blocking it 

off - a total non issue with the finger strainers in place.  I presumed it 

came from a piece of debris introduced into the fuel during airport fuel 

system maintenance as every gallon of mogas from home went through a Mr. 

Filter.



Earlier in this thread mention was made of vapor lock.  It is possible to 

get a similar problem in the lines from the wing tanks to the header tank. 

Make sure they are consistantly running down hill especially at the point of 

the excess that allows for wing folding.  A slight uphill run can trap air 

and the bubble will hinder fuel flow.



Aux. fuel pumps?   Mine was in series and just below the header tank.  It 

helped a bit with the fire sleeve incident, and other than that, I seldome 

used it.  That said, the on switch was mounted just to the right of the 

throttle and I could hit it without moving my hand from the throttle.  It 

will be in series again.  I don't want loops and check valves in the system. 

Keep in mind that the Bing carburetors don't want much fuel pressure and the 

Facet pumps are available in a 4 psi. unit.  I don't understand the physics, 

but somehow the extra 4 psi. boost never caused a problem as it loaded the 

engine mounted fuel pump.  Get the big one and you will be flooding the 

engine for sure.



This could go on and on with old wisdom, but don't use teflon tape, and if 

using a sealing compound like Fuel Lube, make sure it is used minimally as a 

chunk of this stuff could clog jets if it gets into the system, as it simply 

won't dissolve in fuel.



Lowell



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: Near disaster

Another thing to keep in mind when running a fuel system.....if at  

all possible, use a "bulbed" fuel fitting instead of the barbed  

fittings. The bulbed (my term) type have a rounded hump that the hose  

slides over, and it is able to be pulled off without shearing off  

rubber from the inside of the hose. You might have to shop around to  

find them, but it's time well spent.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: Near disaster

Proper name is Beaded tube end. Look in the catalogs and see beading 

tools. Never use barbed fittings as you said. If you made that 

mistake cut the hose off . Do not pull it off.

Lots of shops both auto and aircraft probably have beader in their 

tool collection.

Another advantage is the beaded soft AL tubing can be hand bent to 

point is a most desirable direction that a barbed fitting cannot deal with.

Paul

=========

At 12:59 PM 4/1/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Another thing to keep in mind when running a fuel system.....if at

all possible, use a "bulbed" fuel fitting instead of the barbed

fittings. The bulbed (my term) type have a rounded hump that the hose

slides over, and it is able to be pulled off without shearing off

rubber from the inside of the hose. You might have to shop around to

find them, but it's time well spent.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject: Near disaster

I don't know about your header tank but mine doesn't have a drip on it that

drains from the bottom.  In fact my header has an almost flat bottom which

would be hard to put an efficient drip into.  The gascolator on the other

hand drips forn the lowest point, and it is just about a point, in the fuel

delivery system.  It has a glass bowl which is easy to inspect for any

sediment that may get through the finger strainers. And the header tank.

If any is seen it's easy to cut the wire and clean both the screen and the

bowl.   Personally speaking I think the gascolator  is a great, simple and

useful device to have in the fuel system.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: Near disaster

I was referring to the brass fittings that have the smooth rounded  

hump, not the aluminum tubing to which the beading tool is applied.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Apr 1, 2009, at 7:35 PM, paul wilson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Proper name is Beaded tube end. Look in the catalogs and see  

 beading tools. Never use barbed fittings as you said. If you made  

 that mistake cut the hose off . Do not pull it off.

 Lots of shops both auto and aircraft probably have beader in their  

 tool collection.

 Another advantage is the beaded soft AL tubing can be hand bent to  

 point is a most desirable direction that a barbed fitting cannot  

 deal with.

 Paul

 =========

 At 12:59 PM 4/1/2009, you wrote:

> 

>

> Another thing to keep in mind when running a fuel system.....if at

> all possible, use a "bulbed" fuel fitting instead of the barbed

> fittings. The bulbed (my term) type have a rounded hump that the hose

> slides over, and it is able to be pulled off without shearing off

> rubber from the inside of the hose. You might have to shop around to

> find them, but it's time well spent.

> Lynn Matteson

> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

> Sensenich 62x46

> Electroair direct-fire ignition system

> Status: flying

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: Near disaster

My mistake, Noel.  I forgot that the early headers didn't have a sump drain. 

In your case and others without the sump drain, then gascolator is a good 

plan.  Of course, just my opinion and others will vary.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: Near disaster

Yes what you describe is the equal of beaded lines. Good comment.

Paul

===============

At 05:49 PM 4/1/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I was referring to the brass fittings that have the smooth rounded

hump, not the aluminum tubing to which the beading tool is applied.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Apr 1, 2009, at 7:35 PM, paul wilson wrote:



>

>

>Proper name is Beaded tube end. Look in the catalogs and see

>beading tools. Never use barbed fittings as you said. If you made

>that mistake cut the hose off . Do not pull it off.

>Lots of shops both auto and aircraft probably have beader in their

>tool collection.

>Another advantage is the beaded soft AL tubing can be hand bent to

>point is a most desirable direction that a barbed fitting cannot

>deal with.

>Paul

>=========

>At 12:59 PM 4/1/2009, you wrote:

>>

>>

>>Another thing to keep in mind when running a fuel system.....if at

>>all possible, use a "bulbed" fuel fitting instead of the barbed

>>fittings. The bulbed (my term) type have a rounded hump that the hose

>>slides over, and it is able to be pulled off without shearing off

>>rubber from the inside of the hose. You might have to shop around to

>>find them, but it's time well spent.

>>

>>

>>Lynn Matteson

>>Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

>>Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

>>Sensenich 62x46

>>Electroair direct-fire ignition system

>>Status: flying

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: Near disaster

If I am not mistaken the gascolator  became history when the sump 

header tank started shipping. All the is used with the deep sump 

header is a final filter. or in many cases the filter before the E fuel pump.

PS, the deep sump header is highly recommended since its volume for 

crud is far in excess of any gascolaror.

Paul

=============

At 05:55 PM 4/1/2009, you wrote:

[quote]



My mistake, Noel.  I forgot that the early headers didn't have a 

sump drain. In your case and others without the sump drain, then 

gascolator is a good plan.  Of course, just my opinion and others will vary.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: Near disaster

Jim:



What was the weather like?  Did you use carb heat? I am with those who suspect carb ice.  Under conditions of temperature and due point where they are perfect for the formation of carb ice, it happens, and it can be rather fast to form when the conditions are just right for it.  

Talk to those who know your engine and its rigging for carb heat and be sure you have the carb ice antidote figured out and installed.  



Good luck, and good flying,  Duane Rueb N24ZM



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: Near disaster

We're both in the same boat...  I didn't know the new headers had sump

drains in them.

Noel Loveys

CDN AME Intern

PP-Rec, Kitfox III-A

Areocet 1100 floats

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 2 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum