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Oil injection conversion
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thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: Oil injection conversion

Being from northern Minnesota C I know that 14000 miles on a sled is a lot of miles.  Just for fun C I grabbed my calculator and divided it by 50 MPH and that was only 280 hrs.  If you use 40 MPH C it was 350 hrs.  All of a sudden it didn't seem quite the same C being that we expect  our plane engines to go 300 hrs with no problem.  Jim Chuk  Avids  Kitfox 4  Mn

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

 From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Thu C 2 Apr 2009 17:12:58 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

 We have been running the citgo sea and snow oil for 15+ years in sleds and for the last 2 years in the 582. I normally go through ~ 40 gallons of oil a year in the sled and planes. We tore a 582 down after 250 hrs using this oil with no wear or carbon present. The oil sells for 12-14 bucks a gallon.

 My sleds that use power valves normally have to have the power valves cleaned every 500 miles if you use the arctic cat power valve oil ( manufacture recommended). With the sea and snow C I have not had one issue or needed to clean power valves in thousands and thousands of miles. We have used them in snowmachines for over a hundred thousand miles with no engine issues. ( various sleds added up) and one sled I know of with 14 C000 very hard miles.

 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV 

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

 hander outer of humorless darwin awards

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237461#237461

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akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

I dont abuse the plane engine anywhere close that I do the sled engine.  I have never run the 582 at 8200 RPM for 50 miles, I do it routinely on the sled.  I run them from 50 above to -65 just as hard in all conditions.  If the oil not working was going to show its ugly face it would have.



Just to keep it on topic, I can take a shot in the dark who is pushing you to run 100:1.  He builds the engines and he sells the oil.  I am dealing with a 532 he built right now...  not as much fun as you would think.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Here is more info on oils i compiled recently 



http://bit.ly/CyZWS   The Great oil Debate



http://bit.ly/1DRmB

_________________
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http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
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Last edited by dave on Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: Oil injection conversion

At 05:12 PM 4/2/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  We have been running the citgo sea and snow oil for 15+ years in 

sleds and for the last 2 years in the 582.  I normally go through ~ 

40 gallons of oil a year in the sled and planes.  We tore a 582 down 

after 250 hrs using this oil with no wear or carbon present.  The 

oil sells for 12-14 bucks a gallon.


	


Leonard,

         I can't believe we've been hashing this oil thing for years 

and this is the first time you've mentioned this great option. I've 

been having a hard time getting my Pennzoil and have been looking for 

a replacement for a year. If I can get this locally it might be the one.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

My brother was running the pennziol air cooled in his for about 50 hrs.  We pulled it down for a decarbon and the rings were close to stuck, with carbon on the heads and piston domes.  I talked him into switching to the sea and snow and when we pulled it down after 250 hrs, there was nothing to clean.



I have tried to stay out of the oil issue as this is Citgo oil.  I did not want to get political hell fire and brim stone discussion going.  For me the bottom line is what it costs and the level of protection I have had first hand.



For what it is worth, this is the same oil that the Iron dog supplies for the racers at the check points...

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Pennzoil   - lots use and lots de carbon.   I use API TC  mineral  oil other than pennzoil  and can go in excess of 500 hours with out issues. 



Maybe Rotax shops like the Pennzoil   ?  Good for business? 



Great observation. 

The other oil we use here is Shell Advance and I think They bought Pennzoil ?  Is that correct ? 



 	  akflyer wrote: 	
		  My brother was running the pennziol air cooled in his for about 50 hrs.  We pulled it down for a decarbon and the rings were close to stuck, with carbon on the heads and piston domes.  I talked him into switching to the sea and snow and when we pulled it down after 250 hrs, there was nothing to clean.



I have tried to stay out of the oil issue as this is Citgo oil.  I did not want to get political hell fire and brim stone discussion going.  For me the bottom line is what it costs and the level of protection I have had first hand.



For what it is worth, this is the same oil that the Iron dog supplies for the racers at the check points...

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

AkFlyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  My brother was running the pennziol air cooled in his for about 50 hrs. We pulled it down for a decarbon and the rings were close to stuck, with carbon on the heads and piston domes. I talked him into switching to the sea and snow and when we pulled it down after 250 hrs, there was nothing to clean. 	




Okay, you may have convinced me to switch oil.  I am using penzoil now.  At the first 50 hrs I had lots of carbon to scrape off the rings and piston tops.  I do not have injection on my 503 so premix 50 to 1.  I have to taxi about a mile to and from the runway here so was thinking the carbon buildup was from all that low speed taxing with the 50 to 1 ratio.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

 	  Tom Jones wrote: 	
		  AkFlyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  My brother was running the pennziol air cooled in his for about 50 hrs. We pulled it down for a decarbon and the rings were close to stuck, with carbon on the heads and piston domes. I talked him into switching to the sea and snow and when we pulled it down after 250 hrs, there was nothing to clean. 	




Okay, you may have convinced me to switch oil.  I am using penzoil now.  At the first 50 hrs I had lots of carbon to scrape off the rings and piston tops.  I do not have injection on my 503 so premix 50 to 1.  I have to taxi about a mile to and from the runway here so was thinking the carbon buildup was from all that low speed taxing with the 50 to 1 ratio. 	




Pre mix is a huge contributer to carbon build up as you are running 50 to 1 all the time.  on Injection 50 to 1 is only at wide open throttle 

Idle could just be close to 100 to 1 with the cruise around 60 to 70 :1  ratio.  So,  you almost 20 to 35% richer at cruise and almost double what an injected engine is at 2500 rpm   



Yeah ,  you will get more carbon thinking that way.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Here's a picture of the pistons on my 503 at the first 50 hours. Penzoil premix 50 to 1.

Piston Carbon50Hr.jpg

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_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: Oil injection conversion

That would be a good one to have on Rotaxaircraft.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

 	  rawheels wrote: 	
		  

Newbie?  Yes.  Don't get me wrong;  I've grown up my entire life on our family's airport, I am an A&P, multiple rated pilot, and have two aeronautics degrees from Purdue University.  

	




I would think with an education like that, you would have done your research a little better and be a little more informed.  But then again, I have known guys that had a great memory and could get a 4.0 GPA in school and had ZERO judgment.  Bottom line - Education does not equal intelligence and judgment.



I am a huge believer in synthetic oils, I use synthetic oil in all my cars, and in my airplane.  But I would NEVER NEVER use Amsoil two stroke oil, and I would NEVER use any two stroke oil at 100 to 1.  That not only has been known to destroy Rotax engines, but many other fine quality two stroke engines as well, like the Zenoah two stroke engines we use for model airplanes also.   As far as synthetic oil goes, AMSOIL is not a great synthetic, no all synthetics are created equal.



Rawheels, the fact that you are new to two strokes probably excuses how you bought into this 100 to 1 mix myth is excusable ( probably invented by marketing people to sell, rather than based on good engineering ).  But you attitude of ignoring guys with lots of experience, and your complete failure to do the research on this, is inexcusable.  There is lots of evidence on this issue out there if you take a little effort to look.



If you do this, you will richly deserve what you get.  Its probably better that a guy such as yourself with such poor judgment is grounded anyways.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Last edited by JetPilot on Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

 	  akflyer wrote: 	
		  We have been running the citgo sea and snow oil for 15+ years in sleds and for the last 2 years in the 582.  I normally go through ~ 40 gallons of oil a year in the sled and planes.  We tore a 582 down after 250 hrs using this oil with no wear or carbon present.  The oil sells for 12-14 bucks a gallon.



	




Leonard,



I see you are here trying to sell more Snake oil on us poor unsuspecting two stroke flyers   



Sorry, I couldn't resist hahaha.   As the Penzoil gets expensive and hard to find, I have been looking for a viable alternative.  Given your extensive experience with two strokes, I will go with your advice and buy this when the Penzoil runs out.  



Thanks !



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: Oil injection conversion

Gee, Mike.  Rather than attempting to answer simple questions you tend to 

come down hard on people with ridicule.  I'm not sure why, but while you are 

considering that, please give some hard data (sans opinions) to back up your 

statements below.  Inquiring minds would like to know...

Thanks,

Deke

S5 NE Michigan

do not archive



---

rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Mike, 

Thanks, and God bless you.



Everyone else, 

Describing my history was not intended to say that I knew better than the others, but to allow Dave to understand that although I am new to 2-Stroke, I am not new to aviation in general.  Sorry that I didn't know about "mineral oil".  It the world of certified 4-strokes, where I started, "mineral oil" means something completely different (as Paul mentioned).



Guess I thought that I could avoid the usual beating from the great oil debate by simply asking that the original question was answered in my second post.  I'm willing to admit that I was wrong in that regard.



Thank you all for your help.  I hope you will still be willing to pass on information to a newbie in future posts, as I do appreciate input and help from veterans.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:04 am Post subject: Oil injection conversion

I expect that when dealing with engine manufacturers like Rotax who have

produced, dare I say, a majority of the two stroke engines out there, I'd

follow their operators manual to the letter.  Then if I had any other

questions I'd call a Rotax repair station for their input.  I have in the

past talked to Bob Robertson at Light Engine Repair in BC.   He not only

knows the engines but surprise, surprise, he also knows the aircraft they

power.  Dave Fisher occasionally in this group, is another guy who knows the

planes and the engines.   A squint at the site, Rotaxaircraft.com, probably

wouldn't be out of line either.



There are no stupid questions.  Stupidity starts when you don't ask a

question and aren't 100% sure of the answer.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

 	  rawheels wrote: 	
		  I really don't want to get in a debate over the advantages/disadvantages between petroleum vs synthetic based oils. And yes, it is to run Amsoil.  Does, anyone have an answer for the 100:1 question? 	




Two very knowledgeable people gave Ryan good advice, and his attitude was very clear by his above response... " I don't want to hear it, just answer my original question of how to adjust the mixture schedule of the 582  "    What Ryan was wanting to do would have very likely resulted in him having an engine failure, so I posted an answer in a way that he needed to hear and would not be so easy to ignore like he did the first two answers he got.



Maybe my post was not the nicest, but it was factual, attention getting, and effective.  After 20 + posts in this thread with response by Ryan except that " I don't want to debate it ", it was time to make it very clear to Ryan what a big mistake he was about to make.  So question is do you let a guy go out and probably hurt himself, or do you tell it like it is and get his attention.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

 	  rawheels wrote: 	
		  I really don't want to get in a debate over the advantages/disadvantages between petroleum vs synthetic based oils. And yes, it is to run Amsoil.  Does, anyone have an answer for the 100:1 question? 	




Two very knowledgeable people gave Ryan good advice, and his attitude was very clear by his above response... " I don't want to hear any advice, just answer my original question of how to adjust the oil mixture schedule of the 582  "    What Ryan was wanting to do would have very likely resulted in him having an engine failure and very possibly gotten him hurt, so I posted an answer in a way that he needed to hear and would not be so easy to ignore like he did the first two answers he got.



Maybe my post was not the nicest, but it was factual, attention getting, and effective.  After 20 + posts in this thread with no response by Ryan other than " I don't want to debate it ", it was time to make it very clear to Ryan what a big mistake he was about to make.  So question is do you let a guy go out and probably hurt himself, or do you tell it like it is and get his attention.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

For anyone who does a future search on this topic.  I did get an answer to the question from a couple of people that sent private messages:



The answer is no. There is no known way to modify the oil injection system to run at a non-standard ratio, and not really worth risking it.



If you are like me, and would like to re-install that system on your aircraft, you will need to find an appropriate 50:1 oil.  Luckily, if you've made it this far, you already read plenty of good suggestions on alternatives.  Or, you can search for the next post "Great Oil Debate".

_________________
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:26 pm Post subject: Oil injection conversion

I feel bad for the guy.  He was new to the list and gets that kind of rabid 

response from a self proclaimed protector of pilots when he should have been 

given a welcome.

A little courtesy would have gone much farther and he would probably stick 

around to provide some input of his own.   He definitely has the credentials 

to do that.   As it is now, I'd be surprised if he did.

Deke

do not archive

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Here is the oil debate that I posted a few days ago



dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006

Posts: 970



	

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:13 am    Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion 	Reply with quote

Here is more info on oils i compiled recently



http://bit.ly/CyZWS The Great oil Debate



http://bit.ly/1DRmB

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