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Kitfox Model II flight behavior
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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

At 2:41 PM -0700 4/13/09, akflyer wrote:
Quote:
someone else want to take a shot at this one LOL.

Sure, I will. Leanard, you're wrong. Smile

The model 1, 2, and 3 mixers were linear, both flaperons moving the
same amount. The adverse yaw comes from the increase in lift (and
therefore drag) being generated by the wing with the flaperon
deflected downward. This drag on the outboard wing cause the nose to
try to move away from the direction of the turn.

On the model 4 (and all subsequent models) they changed the mixer so
that the upward-moving flaperon moves twice as far as the one going
down on the other side. They called this the "differential flaperon
mixer" and, as I recall, it was quite the selling point when I
visited both the Denney and Avid factories in 1992. While the drag
still increases on the downward deflected flaperon, it is now
countered by the increased drag of the extra deflection of the
inboard flaperon, reducing the adverse yaw.

At 2:41 PM -0700 4/13/09, akflyer wrote:
Quote:
NO. I, II and III have 2:1 going the wrong way from the factory.

To make the downward-moving flaperon move twice as far would be
pointless--and Dean Wilson is a very smart guy.

Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ


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Fox5flyer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:30 am    Post subject: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

Exactly. It was just the design of the airplane and there were probably
complaints from the Cessna drivers about it being difficult to fly, which it
really wasn't once one found those two things near the floor and put one's
feet on them. The larger fin helped, but was only a band aid. Changing the
flaperon mixing on the IV to reduce the adverse yaw did a lot to smooth
things out (IMHO). I used to fly around in my II and wonder if I could get
it back into my farm strip if I'd lost all rudder control, but never did
because I couldn't even get it lined up on final. To this day I'm not sure
that I could have done it. Probably could get into a larger strip if I had
half of a state to turn the thing. Has anybody tried to fly a pattern and
land a I or II without any rudder input?
As for the funny, I knew that. As for agreeing, I guess I have my flaws
too... I'm smiling!
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
Quote:
Was not ment to be anything other than a funny... I cracked myself up
with it LOL.

Thinking just a touch more on the subject, the flaperon issue is dealing
with nothing more than adverse yaw. The larger fin adds to yaw stability,
but does not alleviate the flaperons from being the culprit. It is an
inherent design..uhhh... not really a flaw, but a "characteristic".



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Fox5flyer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:37 am    Post subject: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

Isn't that what I said? Well, if I didn't, it's what I meant. Smile
D
do not archive

Quote:
Deke - maybe this is a matter of semantics but adverse yaw is not this.
Adverse yaw is
the amount of rudder input you have to supply to compensate for increased
drag on the
outboard wing in a turn. If it were frictionless, then a coordinated turn
with
ailerons would need no rudder input.

If I'm understanding correctly, what is happening is that there is no
apparent
restoring force to return the rudder to a neutral position and the plan
will happily
fly along in a skid without any applied force to the rudder.

--
Paul A. Franz


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Fox5flyer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:42 am    Post subject: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

Gawd, I hate to agree again, but I do.
Is that recipe something similar to the Kickapoo Joy Juice produced down in
these parts?
Oh, and why put "do not archive" in your posts, even when occasionally they
have valid information?
Smile
Deke
do not archive

Quote:

The new mixer if you give it right roll input the right flaperon goes up
twice as much as the left one goes down, making less drag on the left
side, therefore, you need less right rudder input.

If I lost you on that one, you will need more than one bottle of snakeoil.
I am having a batch brewed up in high hills of kentucky that will be 190
to 200 proof, so please, dont do shots of it, it is for "sipping" only!

--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

hander outer of humorless darwin awards


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 38988#238988




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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

Hey Snakeman, I'm gonna be traveling over those hills in Kentuk on my
way (hopefully) to Sun 'n' Fun, and I'd appreciate it if I didn't
have to fly through the smoke. So along about Fri, Sat, or Sun, tell
'em to turn down the heat on the stills and watch for an orange plane
flyin' over, then after that it's ok to crank 'em back up
again....thanks. : )

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive

On Apr 13, 2009, at 3:14 PM, akflyer wrote:
Quote:

If I lost you on that one, you will need more than one bottle of
snakeoil. I am having a batch brewed up in high hills of kentucky
that will be 190 to 200 proof, so please, dont do shots of it, it
is for "sipping" only!

--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

hander outer of humorless darwin awards


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 38988#238988




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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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akflyer



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net wrote:
At 2:41 PM -0700 4/13/09, akflyer wrote:
Quote:
someone else want to take a shot at this one LOL.


Sure, I will. Leanard, you're wrong. Smile

The model 1, 2, and 3 mixers were linear, both flaperons moving the
same amount. The adverse yaw comes from the increase in lift (and
therefore drag) being generated by the wing with the flaperon
deflected downward. This drag on the outboard wing cause the nose to
try to move away from the direction of the turn.

On the model 4 (and all subsequent models) they changed the mixer so
that the upward-moving flaperon moves twice as far as the one going
down on the other side. They called this the "differential flaperon
mixer" and, as I recall, it was quite the selling point when I
visited both the Denney and Avid factories in 1992. While the drag
still increases on the downward deflected flaperon, it is now
countered by the increased drag of the extra deflection of the
inboard flaperon, reducing the adverse yaw.

At 2:41 PM -0700 4/13/09, akflyer wrote:
Quote:
NO. I, II and III have 2:1 going the wrong way from the factory.


To make the downward-moving flaperon move twice as far would be
pointless--and Dean Wilson is a very smart guy.

Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ

well by golly it is not the first time. I had talked to Mr. Stoner and he is the one who told me he did the math, and changed the mixer so it would have the correct differential. I can tell you this much. On my avid, when I changed to the new F7a mixer arms, it takes a whole lot less rudder to coordinate turns. Even if it was a 1:1 the rest of my statements are still true in regards to the drag of the down flaperon pulling the nose to that side and creating the adverse yaw.


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_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....
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akflyer



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

Lynn Matteson wrote:
Hey Snakeman, I'm gonna be traveling over those hills in Kentuk on my
way (hopefully) to Sun 'n' Fun, and I'd appreciate it if I didn't
have to fly through the smoke. So along about Fri, Sat, or Sun, tell
'em to turn down the heat on the stills and watch for an orange plane
flyin' over, then after that it's ok to crank 'em back up
again....thanks. : )

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive



Your scared of a little octane boosting vapor cloud?

Them boys wont listen to me, they will just keep right on abrewin. You want want to re-think your flight path.


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_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....
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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

I had always thought that the models 1 to 3 had 1 to 1 with no differential


http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16186

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 991


PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: Kitfox-List:Stall speed Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Michel,

The Model 1, 2 and 3 used totally different flapperon mixer controls and
you have no differential . There is a possiblity of aileron reversal "I
think" on the PRE IV models. But maybe someone else could comment.

I have a model IV and i have over 30 down deflection. I know how to use
flaps and they are an excellent attribute to my Model IV with over 20
degree down on Take offs .

That being said , over 20 degrees is pretty well useless on landings.

I am open for comments but please don't tell me they are unsafe this way .
Full flaps over 20 degrees are totally safe if you know how to use them .
Dave

But then John Stoner thought otherwise
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16319
dcaofak(at)acsalaska.net
Guest


PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential Reply with quote
Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE differential.

Furthermore this topic came up last year one year ago to the date !! wow Impeccable !!

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=42175

Some good reading there ,Comparing the Model IV Kitfxo to a Avid Model IV . Well I have flown both and they are totally different. Avids use no differential either -- they had a mod f7 change and corrected that to some degree.

Want to start a discussion the the benefits of using more than 15 degrees of Flapperons on a MOdel IV ? LOL


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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

more food for yah

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=34764


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_________________
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Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

I'm already steerin' clear of the mountains...uh cain't steer cleer
of the whole state.....jeez, I'm startin' to talk and spell lik I'm
already there! Apologies to all of the Southern folks...just tryin'
to lighten the air some. : )

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive

On Apr 14, 2009, at 12:16 PM, akflyer wrote:

Quote:

Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Hey Snakeman, I'm gonna be traveling over those hills in Kentuk on my
> way (hopefully) to Sun 'n' Fun, and I'd appreciate it if I didn't
> have to fly through the smoke. So along about Fri, Sat, or Sun, tell
> 'em to turn down the heat on the stills and watch for an orange plane
> flyin' over, then after that it's ok to crank 'em back up
> again....thanks. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
> do not archive
Your scared of a little octane boosting vapor cloud?

Them boys wont listen to me, they will just keep right on abrewin.
You want want to re-think your flight path.

--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

hander outer of humorless darwin awards


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 39117#239117




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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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jconnell(at)fmwildblue.co
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Reply with quote

Guys,

Thanks for all your comments, observations, and humor. I've always known my model II is rudder driven and have flown it accordingly -- it's second nature. A number of years ago I flew an orientation ride in Van's RV-9A in Oregon. The company pilot asked what I had been flying and I said a Kitfox. He said, "I thought so, you lead with rudder in the turns!" So rudder input comes automatically.

Should I have a cable, control link, or bell crank fail for the rudder, I know I will lose yaw control. The plane will not be yaw stable in normal flight.

Thanks again for the input...

Joe
[quote][b]


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