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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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 Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time |
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> I usually drag fingers in the carburettor throat as well as the filter to
check for that very thing (i.e. a leak where the filter attaches to the
carburettor body. I've seen that happen and didn't catch it until checking
the venturis).
| Quote: |
In fact, I have enough hours on my 2 new K&N's that it's time to go pull
them and check them for that already..... so this is a good reminder (I
also need to pull my bowls and check those as you suggested too...)....
LS
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K&N filters are not 100%. Don't think any of them are.
I ran a K&N filter on my Dodge/Cummins only to find out the turbo pulls oil
out of the filter and coats the inside of the turbo, blades, and the
intercooler. Went back to the stock paper element and have less dirt being
pulled through, as I can tell.
However, we can't operate with a paper filter when there is a chance we will
encounter rain. The K&N does a good job in rain. Not many cross country
flights I do not encounter some of the wet stuff.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time |
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| wrk2win4u(at)msn.com wrote: |
Yes C it can be costly to clean and oil filters. All of my vehicles and tractor now have K&N filters. I have used paint thinner as a cleaning solvent for the filters. This breaks down the oil and releases the gathered gunk. It does not appear to harm the filter fibers at all.
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A damaged K&N filter element due to using a wrong chemical to clean it is hard to spot and requires a close inspection. The main symptom is shrinking of the cotton - you can see it kind of shrivelled up and pulled away from the screen a bit. If you compare a ruined one next to a new one, you can see what it looks like.
You'll sometimes also see microscopic white fibers in small quantities on the inside of the filter. I replace the filters immediately when I see this.
Oddly enough, the good aircraft grade solvent will cause the element to shrink up like this and give the fibers syndrome. Kerosene will also ruin the filter... Don't ask me why I know this.
I always only use the K&N solvent to clean mine as it's available everywhere and is easy to keep on hand. I havn't tried gasoline but I agree with John that it makes sense that it wouldn't hurt the filter....
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time |
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Kolb guys C
May I ask for a little clarification with regard to filters/oiling C etc. My next project to build on my MkIII is my air filter inlet for my turbocharger. I hadn't really considered that I needed to incorporate an oil coated filter( I considered the filter C just NOT the oil part). Maybe I should.
So C my question is...are we talking about a "foam" filter lightly soaked in oil C or "paper" filter lightly soaked in oil? I can't recall seeing any paper type filters oiled. I can think of tons of foam filters soaked in oil C though C mostly yard equipment with Briggs & Stratton (type) engines.
My thoughts are to use a good foam filter. I hadn't considered including oil C but I guess I should. I do agree there's a lot of crap in the air that we sort of overlook (but a filter doesn't).
Paper or foam?? Any preference? Which is better?
Mike Welch
MkIII
| Quote: | From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: One Thing At A Time
Date: Mon C 20 Apr 2009 09:48:59 -0500
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
> I usually drag fingers in the carburettor throat as well as the filter to
check for that very thing (i.e. a leak where the filter attaches to the
carburettor body. I've seen that happen and didn't catch it until checking
the venturis).
>
> In fact C I have enough hours on my 2 new K&N's that it's time to go pull
> them and check them for that already..... so this is a good reminder (I
> also need to pull my bowls and check those as you suggested too...)....
>
> LS
K&N filters are not 100%. Don't think any of them are.
I ran a K&N filter on my Dodge/Cummins only to find out the turbo pulls oil
out of the filter and coats the inside of the turbo C blades C and the
intercooler. Went back to the stock paper element and have less dirt being
pulled through C as I can tell.
However C we can't operate with a paper filter when there is a chance we will
encounter rain. The K&N does a good job in rain. Not many cross country
flights I do not encounter some of the wet stuff.
john h
mkIII
>=====================
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[quote] _==========
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:57 am Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time |
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I would not run my 912-S without oiling my K&N filters, I clean and oil them every 50 hours or so. While you would not find near as much dirt and dust in the air as you would on the ground, it is most definately there. Remember you are also running much higher power levels and continuous RPM's in the air than on the ground, so even though there is less dust in the air, your engine will suck in at least 4 times as much air as an engine on the ground, which means helps balance the equation... You are getting a lot more dust in the air than you think.
Its not just the size of the air passages also, Oil is very efficient at making air particles stick to it, even if the passage is larger, the particle will stay trapped to an oily surface. Thats why oil is great, it does not just depend on air passage size.
I only use K&N oil on my filters, and follow their directions. Its not hard, I have done this 4 times on my 912 and also several times on a 447 and never had any problems with my engines not running perfectly after cleaning and oiling.
The importance of having a good performing air filter to achieve good engine life is an accepted fact. I would not let an unreasonable fear of over oiling prevent me from having a properly functioning filter ( Oiled in the case of K&N ). Putting to much motor oil the crankcase of an engine can also cause problems, that does not mean I don't put motor oil in the engine at all, it just means I put in the proper amount... Same goes for oil on the K&N air filters. I would read K&N's instructions about the proper way to do it ( which I have done ), and have a well protected and good running engine that has a good chance of maintaining compression and lasting to TBO or beyond.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:04 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time |
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Mike W/Gang:
I'd go with K&N. There's a bunch of them out there in the experimental and ultralight world.
Their filter element is woven cotten. A special oil is used to saturate the cotton and make it an efficient air filter. They work great in dry and wet conditions.
john h
mkIII
[quote] May I ask for a little clarification with regard to filters/oiling, etc.
Mike Welch
[b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time |
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| JetPilot wrote: | I would not run my 912-S without oiling my K&N filters, I clean and oil them every 50 hours or so. While you would not find near as much dirt and dust in the air as you would on the ground, it is most definately there. Remember you are also running much higher power levels and continuous RPM's in the air than on the ground, so even though there is less dust in the air, your engine will suck in at least 4 times as much air as an engine on the ground, which means helps balance the equation... You are getting a lot more dust in the air than you think.
Its not just the size of the air passages also, Oil is very efficient at making air particles stick to it, even if the passage is larger, the particle will stay trapped to an oily surface. Thats why oil is great, it does not just depend on air passage size.
I only use K&N oil on my filters, and follow their directions. Its not hard, I have done this 4 times on my 912 and also several times on a 447 and never had any problems with my engines not running perfectly after cleaning and oiling.
The importance of having a good performing air filter to achieve good engine life is an accepted fact. I would not let an unreasonable fear of over oiling prevent me from having a properly functioning filter ( Oiled in the case of K&N ). Putting to much motor oil the crankcase of an engine can also cause problems, that does not mean I don't put motor oil in the engine at all, it just means I put in the proper amount... Same goes for oil on the K&N air filters. I would read K&N's instructions about the proper way to do it ( which I have done ), and have a well protected and good running engine that has a good chance of maintaining compression and lasting to TBO or beyond.
Mike |
Well you know... being as how I'm not afraid to overturn something I've done forever that may still not be the right thing to do...... and how I take what ya'll tell me seriously........
I did run across a good idea for checking for overoiling of the K&N that had never occurred to me. The idea is to check the airflow through the filter with a vacuum. I.e. a small shop vac put over the outlet of the filter can clear out excess oil if overoiled and can give an indication of proper airflow.......
I'm going to try that when I do the maint. on my current set of filters. Why not as that's really my only worry with oiling (I don't wish to repeat the overoiling experience I had in my trike for sure)...
FWIW, from the reminder by John I did my float bowl check today and happily there was no water or crapola in either one. When I lived in TX, I always found at least a small ball of H2O in the bottom of the bowls when I did this check (usually at 25 to 30 hours or thereabouts). I attribute that to the much drier climate here.
LS
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: One Thing At A Time |
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There is one thing I haven't heard mentioned and that is moisture that can
be adsorb by the filters if not oiled.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: 2009-04-20 17:53
To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: One Thing At A Time
| Quote: |
JetPilot wrote:
> I would not run my 912-S without oiling my K&N filters, I clean and oil
> them every 50 hours or so. While you would not find near as much dirt
> and dust in the air as you would on the ground, it is most definately
> there. Remember you are also running much higher power levels and
> continuous RPM's in the air than on the ground, so even though there is
> less dust in the air, your engine will suck in at least 4 times as much
> air as an engine on the ground, which means helps balance the equation...
> You are getting a lot more dust in the air than you think.
>
> Its not just the size of the air passages also, Oil is very efficient at
> making air particles stick to it, even if the passage is larger, the
> particle will stay trapped to an oily surface. Thats why oil is great,
> it does not just depend on air passage size.
>
> I only use K&N oil on my filters, and follow their directions. Its not
> hard, I have done this 4 times on my 912 and also several times on a 447
> and never had any problems with my engines not running perfectly after
> cleaning and oiling.
>
> The importance of having a good performing air filter to achieve good
> engine life is an accepted fact. I would not let an unreasonable fear of
> over oiling prevent me from having a properly functioning filter ( Oiled
> in the case of K&N ). Putting to much motor oil the crankcase of an
> engine can also cause problems, that does not mean I don't put motor oil
> in the engine at all, it just means I put in the proper amount... Same
> goes for oil on the K&N air filters. I would read K&N's instructions
> about the proper way to do it ( which I have done ), and have a well
> protected and good running engine that has a good chance of maintaining
> compression and lasting to TBO or beyond.
>
> Mike
Well you know... being as how I'm not afraid to overturn something I've
done forever that may still not be the right thing to do...... and how I
take what ya'll tell me seriously........
I did run across a good idea for checking for overoiling of the K&N that
had never occurred to me. The idea is to check the airflow through the
filter with a vacuum. I.e. a small shop vac put over the outlet of the
filter can clear out excess oil if overoiled and can give an indication of
proper airflow.......
I'm going to try that when I do the maint. on my current set of filters.
Why not as that's really my only worry with oiling (I don't wish to repeat
the overoiling experience I had in my trike for sure)...
FWIW, from the reminder by John I did my float bowl check today and
happily there was no water or crapola in either one. When I lived in TX, I
always found at least a small ball of H2O in the bottom of the bowls when
I did this check (usually at 25 to 30 hours or thereabouts). I attribute
that to the much drier climate here.
LS
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 40364#240364
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time |
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Lucien,
The Vacuum test is a really good idea. If there is to much oil in the filter to block it, a strong Vacuum might be enough to clear the filter out to where it should be. A two stroke is much more acceptable to have problems with a richer mixture than a 4 stroke. I have never heard of a 912 losing power because of an over oiled filter.
Most people use K&N filters on their 912's , I think if power loss were a big risk due to over oiling, that we would have heard a LOT of reports about this issue on the forums, and Rotax groups over the years. The absence of reports like this on a product that most of us use does indicate its just not a big problem. Now I'm sure if one went and dunked the air filter in a can full of oil and brought it out dripping wet, it would not be great... I just have never heard of oiling the K&N filters being super critical or a dangerous thing.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: One Thing At A Time |
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I have never heard of a 912 losing power because of an over oiled filter.
I just wrote about losing 200 rpm yesterday. Then today my power was back.
I attribute that to an over oiled air filter because I have changed nothing
else since then. I did fly about 45 minutes, probably enough to clean up
the air filter.
I did not have a complete loss of power, by any means.
Don't believe a two stroke would have been affected by over oiling any more
than my 912ULS did. If it did, it would be readily noticeable on take off.
Unless you were operating on a very short, tough strip, you would have
plenty time to see the reduction in take off power and abort the flight, if
necessary.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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