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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:53 am Post subject: GSC props

All props require attention.  Even the certified props that have the

mounting bolts lock wired need to be checked for tracking, cleaning and

leading edge pitting on a regular basis.   Wood props are susceptible to

water damage.  They are not the first choice for dodging through clouds but

then again you are not supposed to do that.  



I would really like to have seen the prop that came apart on you.  I suspect

that prop had prior issues that you are not aware of.  It is possible the

tap with the plastic had absolutely the square root of 0 to do with the prop

damage.  What I'm thinking is a there was a problem with the lamination of

the wood the blades were carved from or you may have had a stone chip you

were unaware of.  BTW what make was that prop?



I think if you check the manual on your Warp drive you will find there is

probably some maintenance you should be doing.  As for the retorquing every

other day let's face it you, like me like, exaggerate on occasion.



In this country small bush planes which fly hundreds of hours a year, single

operator, have inspections done every 50 hr.  These inspections are not

check the ash trays and change the oil.  Every 50 hr. All the control

linkages are checked and cables are checked for tension.  All the crap is

removed from under the floor boards. All control surfaces are checked and

the hinges are lubricated.  I won't go into the details of either the

airframe or the engine suffice it to say there will be measurements taken of

the props and leading edge dressing done on every inspection.  What I'm

getting at here is not to think just because you have a particular appliance

on your plane you can slack off your inspections.   I know it's so easy to

do that.

Noel





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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: GSC props

And the point is???



In each one of those links either the blade had not been properly inspected

or it had been over torqued.   One incident was described twice.  The one

exception was the strike which hit squarely on the plastic leading edge.  A

warp with the nickel edge may have survived but not necessarily .  The last

one where the owner of the aircraft actually milled the hub to be able to

put more crush on an already over crushed prop is one for the books.



To answer my own question the point is;   refer to GSC manuals.  Carefully

do the prop inspections at regular intervals...  50 - 100 hr.  I never

thought of it before but it may be an idea to remove the blades to have a

closer look at the collars.  That would be a good idea even on the warp

blades.  While you are at it you should be checking the hub for any sign of

cracking or wear.  



Noel



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:08 am Post subject: GSC props

Noel,



Mike's posts may be badly expressed (alright, sometimes obnoxious (sorry

Mike, but it's true)) but they have made me think a lot more about being

careful and what to check on my old GSC prop, which I had been taking for

granted. Much more so then the "mine works great, never had a problem!"

posts.



I am reassured that all of Mike's links show prop failures due to

negligence, sometimes even stupidity, and if well taken care of they seem to

be a damn good prop.



As I embark on making sure mine is still damn good - I notice the prop roots

are glued into the hub or have some kind of sealant there? I am reluctant to

do too much disassembly on what has been a clean and trouble-free prop, and

maybe be Mike's next link to an accident where "the prop had just been

inspected an hour prior to the fatal accident".



Any recommendations on checking the roots? The plane has always been

hangered and the assembly looks like new, the only thing I have done to the

prop blades is a bit of sanding and a light coat of urethane. But this

thread makes me realise I should do more.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa



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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: GSC props

The GSC website and one of the sites Mike was so kind to provide alluded the

roots should be checked for any cracking of that glue.  No disassembly

required and can be part of your pre-flight walk around. On an annual basis

I would pull the prop blades and check the through holes for any darkening

of the wood.



My reason for not replacing the old GSC with a new one was the IFA.  I

thought it would help get my plane off the water a bit quicker.... I was

right!  I found the Ivo to be much smoother but I think that was a factor of

getting the pitch the same on all the blades.  I'm glad I didn't find out

about my faulty tachometer until I had the Ivo installed.  I think the extra

20 power to the blade could have resulted in a bad day for me.



Noel



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: GSC props

This topic has pretty much had it's run with me, but I feel I have to make 

one last comment.



Kitfox and Avid have been around since around 1984 as I recall.  In the 

early days, the GSC prop was standard from the factory and if you were to be 

able to get a real good survey of what folks flew with in total, the GSC 

prop would be the overwhelming choice - probably in the range of three or 

four or more to one vz. the other available props.  Also keep in mind that 

during the time frame when I bought my first kit (1993), Kitfox was 

delivering 40 - read forty - kits a month (that is almost 500 kits a year) 

vs. the serious drop of from that in the intervening years (to less than  40 

a year when Skystar vanished) and this doesn't account for what Avid sold. 

The factory claims 4000 Kitfoxes flying.  So if you examined the fleets, you 

would find many more Model I through IVs and early Avids than the later 

models of both fleets and most flew, at least initially, with the GSC to 

many hundreds of thousands of hours.



What does this suggest?    If there was a serious problem with the Kitfox or 

Avid and this prop, we wouldn't be searching the internet to find five 

obscure reports of these props failing and as was suggested, all but one due 

to serious neglect - and who really knows for sure about the that one, as 

all we have is the word of the guy who broke it.  Rather, there would be 

numerous reports in the archives and very likely Service Bulletins from both 

Kitfox and Avid.  We haven't been living in a vacuum.  More posts containing 

the same arguments don't mean more truth, just more posts and more of the 

same arguments.  Enough already!



Lowell

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Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: GSC props

Noel and others.



I guess I started this thread last week with a question about brakes lines... it morphed into a GSC prop discussion when Dave inquired about my prop.  Firstly,  everyone's answers about the brake lines were really helpful and yesterday I installed the lines in about 1 1/2 hours... no sweat.



Of greater help to me has been the prop discussion here.  I appreciate the "spirited" discussion and the accumulated wisdom of the list members.  But I feel that the last post by Noel puts it in perspective.  I'm an accident investigator with the Transportation Safety Board of Canada.  When we do risk assessments we look at the total population of the aircraft, ship, or locomotive along with the failure rate.  I agree with Noel, within the Kitfox community of models 1 - IV there are not enough documented failure to condemn the GCS prop and that safety means constant vigilance, no matter what hardware we fly. I do however now have a greater respect for tolerances and maintenance of  the prop that I inherited with my previously owned project.  



Lets move on.



Cheers

Ken

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_________________
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

Lowell,



You observation of the numbers of GSC props sold and reported problems does make a very good point.  I have to agree with you, given the numbers of props sold, GSC props are not dangerous if installed properly.  I would not take that to mean they are the best prop available now, a lot of advancements have been made in sport propellers since the 1980's when kitfoxes started using GSC props.



This thread has been one of the better ones this forum has seen in a while.  A reminder of important maintenance procedures is a a good thing.   I think the many people here flying with GSC props will be extra vigilant in making sure their props are properly cared for and properly torqued.  This is even better information for those buying a used Kitfox with a GSC prop already on it, they will most likely do a better inspection and re torquing of the prop given the information here.



Mike

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:22 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

Now that GSC are once again a good prop  here is one that I had to fix the broken engine mount on a couple of years ago .  This one was always kept indoors, never over tightened. Wood did not seem rotted and blades were not loose.  

http://www.cfisher.com/gsc/

Owner was in Mid 80s at  the time and noticed on run up something was not right and taxied back to his hangar and a few feet from the door it shed one blade.  Usually when a prop departs on a Rotax the carbs jump out of the rubber boots and engine shuts down. 



 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		  Lowell,



You observation of the numbers of GSC props sold and reported problems does make a very good point.  I have to agree with you, given the numbers of props sold, GSC props are not dangerous if installed properly.  I would not take that to mean they are the best prop available now, a lot of advancements have been made in sport propellers since the 1980's when kitfoxes started using GSC props.



This thread has been one of the better ones this forum has seen in a while.  A reminder of important maintenance procedures is a a good thing.   I think the many people here flying with GSC props will be extra vigilant in making sure their props are properly cared for and properly torqued.  This is even better information for those buying a used Kitfox with a GSC prop already on it, they will most likely do a better inspection and re torquing of the prop given the information here.



Mike

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: GSC props

I notice the glue collar completely separated from the root cuff.  That one

may have been caught by a careful inspection of the cuffs.



Noel



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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