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psm(at)att.net
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 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Hi Gig,
Thank you for explaining a lot of your thinking
on this issue. I will "Reward" you with an
attempt at a reasonable response to your very
long post. I admit I didn't have the patience to
read the whole thing, but I read enough to get a good idea of your drift.
First let me say I hold no personal animosity
toward anyone in this whole mess. Perhaps this
is not quite true when it comes to the Heintz
clan, but a lot of that is my own problem. I
made a big mistake when I decided to build a
Zodiac XL because I was confused and lacked
precise reading and thinking on personal matters
relating to the Heintz clan. I thought I was
buying a kit designed by a world class engineer
and that the same person was the one running the
factory and would be available for consultation
during my building experience. I just didn't
notice that the Heintzes involved in all those
separate roles weren't the same person. That was
my mistake not theirs. Still, I feel a little
cheated because that was my highest priority in
selection of a model to build and I feel a little
cheated. I spent much of my working life as a
major league computer designer (i.e. engineer),
and I appreciate the way that kind of engineer thinks and works.
I will probably regret this next issue, but I
will hang my head out to be flamed and chopped
off anyway. This is a social group as well as a
builder's issue discussion group. I feel I owe
some of the group members an explanation even
though I know some other members will
misinterpret every word I write and find the whole passage a personal issue.
None of us are "Normal" average people. If we
were we wouldn't be building airplanes. Perhaps,
just perhaps, I am one of the most odd and
unusual people in the group. This individual
difference creates misunderstandings just because
we are so different from normal people and each
other. Sometimes it seems that you, Gig,
intentionally misunderstand every word I
write. Nearly all of your comments on my
statements are wrong. I don't really think you
do this on purpose and I hold no grudge against
you. I am just very frustrated.
I am going to give you a short bio of myself that
might help explain just why it is we just can't
understand each other. Besides the fact we are
both deeply involved in building a particular
airplane we are probably aliens to each
other. This just might be similar to the gender
gap covered by one of the greatest books I have
ever read: "Men are from Mars, Women are from
Venus" by Grey (I hope I remembered the spelling
and details of the book, but probably not.)
When I was a kid I watched war movies that
glorified the role of fighter pilots. After that
I wanted to be a fighter pilot when I grew up. I
have always thought of myself as a pilot first
and everything else second. I have not been very
successful at committing myself to this activity,
but that is changing now that I am retired from my working careers.
The comments about Hap Ki Do are exact and
true. Indeed, I know more ways to kill someone
with my bare hands with one blow than even I am
aware of. That is what Hap Ki Do is about. I
spent a few years going to classes several times
a week to learn this art. Fortunately, Hap Ki Do
is a defensive art and nearly completely useless
unless someone attacks you. My comments were
technical truth which I always try to put in my
posts and other publication writings. If not for
the emotional state I was in on Tuesday, I
probably would have realized those comments were
out of place and would (like much of my stuff) be
completely misinterpreted and recognized as
boasting rather than simple statements of
fact. I have studied other martial arts -
particularly combat style pistol shooting. I am
very skilled with a pistol - indeed the best shot
with a pistol I have ever met. When I go
shooting with friends at the firing range (I have
one in my front yard) they usually drop their
jaws in amazement as they start to realize what I
routinely do. This is simply who I am. I "Come
by it honestly". My father was a sniper and
Ranger in the US Army in World War II. I have
always identified myself as a "Warrior". My life
reflects that in many ways, but that is not all.
I spent 8 years on active duty in the USAF. The
first job I had as a computer programmer was in
the mass murder business. Indeed, I am a
bona-fide expert in the use of weapons of mass
destruction. I wrote the software used to target
all of the multiple warhead strategic missiles in
the Western World during a certain period of the
Cold War. This was indeed very honorable work
rather than the kind of stuff we can identify
with Saddam Hussein. The notion was called MAD -
Mutual Assured Destruction. It worked. We won
the Cold War without firing a single nuclear
weapon. That was what we all wanted to
accomplish. Still, if you misinterpret even a
small part of this particular period of my
history you will come up with the correct notion
that I am an experienced mass murderer. This is just who I am.
So, when I pointed out that I didn't kill either
of the boys, my thoughts were not about bragging
they were about explaining that it really was a
good thing that I didn't kill either of them. This is just who I am.
On the NTSB issue. I have tried and tried to
make my position crystal clear. Still you
continue to completely misinterpret my
writing. I thought I was a pretty good writer,
but I seem to never manage to get even a single
point across to you. I will try one last (I
hope) time to get this particular point across
because I believe it is the central issue to getting this mess resolved.
I don't believe the NTSB is correct from an
engineering or science stand point. Indeed, I
think they are wrong. That doesn't matter. I
think they are the most powerful force in this
arena. They said we need mass balancing. My
statement that we need to follow that ruling is a
political statement by me not a technical one at
all. By political, I mean the NTSB "Has the
Power" to say this with authority. I am not
saying anyone is forced to follow their edict
that all XLs should be grounded. I am saying
that their statement has a lot of political force
whether it is "Right" or not. That is a glimpse
into my view of what the word political
means. I'm sure I, once again, didn't manage to
get this difficult distinction across to you, Gig. But, I tried one more time.
I have been in the middle of a number of state
and national campaigns for political
candidates. Also, I am a certified election
observer. My views about what politics is all
about are probably quite different from yours.
From my perspective, politics is about who has
power and who doesn't. Once again, your world
and mine probably don't have much in common. I
think that is why you don't get anything I say correctly.
I give up.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 08:50 AM 4/23/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Paul,
When I first read your diatribe yesterday
morning I decided to really think about your
post before I replied. I’m glad I did, because
most of what I would have said was said by
others. But mainly because your responses to
those posts, along with the original post, show
that you are at least somewhat skewed in your
thinking. Let’s face it there are a lot of
folks that would brag about their ability to
kill people with their bare hands in a forum
such as this especially when discussing a topic
such as this. And since you admitted to being
“…very emotional in my dealings with the
Heintz brothers, Sebastian and especially
Matthew.” I’m surprised they spent any time
talking to you at all. I know I wouldn’t have in their position.
You have made the decision to ground your
airplane and that is your right. If you aren’t
comfortable flying it then you most certainly
shouldn’t. But your overwhelming belief that
the NTSB is right and anything they say should
be followed without question shows that you know
very little about the way government works in
general and the way aviation rules in particular
are made. As has already been made clear the
NTSB isn’t the final say in matters such as
this and they were never designed to be. And
that is a good thing. It is called checks and
balances and you will see it throughout our government.
In one of your posts today you again show that
you don’t understand how the NTSB process
works. You seem to think there is some wall of
separation between the board members and the
investigators. There isn’t. The board members
make their decisions based on the reports of the
NTSB investigators as well as outside data that
is available. In this case it seems they are
completely ignoring their investigators and
relying heavily on outside data. I say this
because the only mention in any NTSB
investigative report concerning flutter is in
that there is no direct evidence that it took
place in the accident aircraft. I’m not saying
that flutter did not happen. I am saying that I
don’t know and neither does the NTSB.
The NTSB reports quotes several 601XL pilots
that experienced what they described as flutter.
In all cases cited cables were not tensioned
properly. The only place where the NTSB letter
says an accident 601XL “may” have
experienced flutter with properly tensioned
cables is the Antelope Island accident in March
of this year. The builder, who was not flying
the plane, states the aileron tension was
checked before first flight and again 6 flight
hours before the accident. I have two problems
with this. First and foremost I am shocked that
the board is taking action based on an accident
where the investigation is anywhere close to
finished. Second, and I’m not making any
statement about this individual builder, but for
him to say anything other than the cables were
tensioned properly would be was is known as “A
Statement Against Interest.” And this would
all be fine but the NTSB letter seems to be
using it as the basis for their position that proper aileron tension is !
not enough to provide protection from flutter.
Another place where the NTSB report seems out of
phase with the real world is the first page
where they mention in the footnote #2 that there
are planes with both hingeless and hinged
ailerons. But, in the body they are saying that
all the planes are “…is essentially the
same.” This statement is absurd. To ignore the
fact that not a single hingeless aircraft has
been involved in one of the accidents makes me
question the NTSB’s decision process and
motives. It also removes what might well be the
easiest and most practical fix for the problem,
i.e. Replace the hinged ailerons with the hingeless design.
Let’s all remember how the hinged option came
about in the first place. Many people thought
the hingeless design was weird or didn’t trust
it despite the testing that is shown on the
Zenith website. So Zenith caved and presented
builders with a hinged option. Time may prove
that this was a fatal mistake on Zenith’s
part. Think about this. The hingeless ailerons
are “stiffer” than the hinged variety. If a
cable is loose allowing flutter to develop it is
only logical to conclude that the stiffer
aileron is going to less susceptible to it and
even if it does develop easier to get under
control. Anecdotal (hey if it is good enough for
the NTSB…) reports bare this out because there
are reports of loose cables on hingeless models
developing early stage flutter that was controlled by pilot action.
The other issue that the NTSB seems to have an
issue with the gradient of force on the
elevator. This has really never been much of an
issue though Zenith did provide the elevator
stop modification to reduce over control. I
can’t speak much on this because I have yet to
be able to fly the 601XL in the parts of the
envelope where it might be an issue. But it is
my view that this is a training issue. There is
precedent for the NTSB and the FAA to deal with
this issue via training. For more information on
that I’d suggest you Google SFAR 74.
Finally, I’d like to point out that at one
time the issue of the design strength in general
was questions. The only issue that the NTSB
seemed to have was with the Ultimate Design Load
and that it may fall short of +6Gs but only
slightly. Easy fix, get out your plans if you
are building or your log and POA if you are
flying. Take a pen and mark out “+6Gs” and write in “+5Gs”.
The following is for the builders only. Those of
you that seem to have lost all faith in the
design, designer and the company that sold you
the plans; I see no option for you other than
give up on the plane. There are those of you
that will never be happy and life is to short to
spend time building a plane you are not happy
with. You will be out some money but stuff
happens. And since lawsuits have been mentioned
both here and in other places I’d suggest you
go back and read the “CONDITIONS OF SALE AND
WARNING NOTICE” that not only you but also
your spouse or next of kin signed when you
bought your plans or kit. Here’s a link:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/data/601-price-orderform.pdf
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reaction |
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| psm(at)att.net wrote: | Hi Gig,
Thank you for explaining a lot of your thinking
on this issue. I will "Reward" you with an
attempt at a reasonable response to your very
long post. I admit I didn't have the patience to
read the whole thing, but I read enough to get a good idea of your drift.
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And I think we found your problem. You didn't have the patience to read. First you didn't have the patience to read enough about the company you were buying your kit from and then you didn't have the patience to read my post. Why should we assume you had the patience to read the NTSB warning or even the building instructions that came with your kit?
Once you have taken the time to actually read what I posted I'll be happy to talk to you about it.
Former student Tang Soo Do
Former USPSA/IPSC Open & Tactical Pistol Competitor
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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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ronlee
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reaction |
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Jeez Paul, I can't possibly imagine anyone being quite so infatuated with oneself. I'll bet at a party you talk about me,me,me nonstop!
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Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona |
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Paul, you're probably an ok guy, I don't know and to be honest I don't care.
But I have no interest in your ability to split a Buick in two while killing
all the witnesses with your awesome pistol skills. Are you a great engineer?
Until you can divorce logic and emotion, I doubt it.
I've done some stuff that I am impressed with in my career also, I'm
probably the best expert my company has on technology that now resides in
the landfill site. Who cares?
The only issue at stake here in this forum is the 601 XL, and on that issue
you and I have the same great expertise... NONE AT ALL!
Telling the list about your awesome abilities and accomplishments and
education still doesn't allow you to devine whether there is or is not a
problem with the XL.
We do not know if there is a problem, or what it is if there is one, or what
is the solution if there is one. The only fact we have is that there have
been incidents, at a rate above the norm. That's it! Now here's the kicker,
if more XL's are commissioned and more flight hours are flown, the rate will
come down to the norm if nothing else happens. If nothing else happens other
than people fly their XL's and accumulate hours, maybe nothing was ever
wrong.
I think something is need of improvement with this aircraft, but I have no
idea what it is, and neither do you!
---
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Sorry Gig,
I have decided that your posts are not worth reading any more. They
just irritate me and waste my time.
You are the second member of this list to be programmed straight to
the trash in my email progam - Andy was the first. From now on,
don't expect any replies from me since I won't see your crap any more.
Good bye,
Paul
Do not archive
At 07:25 AM 4/24/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Once you have taken the time to actually read what I posted I'll be
happy to talk to you about it.
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dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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That was well thought out and I agree with you Dave. Paul's post reminded me of the Count Vizzini in "The Princess Bride" and did little to persuade me to his point of view. While I await my inspection on 29APR09 I am trying to gather as much factual data as possible. I have not however, updated my own CV to submit as evidence. Geez I hope I don't get Hap Ki Do'ed to death over this,
Ed
[quote][b]
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