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Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: Older Pilots

On Mar 24, 2006, at 10:36 AM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   It is a well known fact that pilots slow down and make more  

 mistakes as we get older.  As people get older their minds slow  

 down and they are not as quick to react and cannot process  

 information as quickly as when they were young, which is critical  

 to flying.  This is somewhat offset by experience, but not enough  

 to balance the equation.  It is no suprise that older pilots have a  

 higher accident rate.


	


Michael,



Your notions are easily countered by the facts as they present  

themselves here on the Kolb list.



John Hauck made more mistakes and had more accidents before he was 60  

years old than He did after he was 60.

What is true for him is true for most pilots who have over thirty  

years experience flying Kolbs.



JetPilots could be an exception though.

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: Older Pilots

Michael,



        Statistics can be used to explain both sides of an argument.  I 

don't recall a single accident review (in 30 years of reading them) where 

the pilot's age was a primary or contributory factor.  Health and poor 

judgement, yes.  But those factors show up in all age groups.  Attitude and 

experience trump age IMO.



        You and I both fly a lot in our careers.  When was the last time you 

had to have lightning-fast reflexes and process info quicker than an IBM to 

save the day?  The data shows that the guy who jumps when something happens 

is much more likely to make the wrong move.  The crusty old Captain on his 

last checkride before retirement still passes quite easily.  He's been doing 

it his entire career, reviewed twice a year, and can nearly do so in his 

sleep.  The last thing I need is someone who makes a hair-trigger movement 

or judgement during a critical phase of flight.  Your statement "This is 

somewhat offset by experience, but not enough to balance the equation." is 

ludicrous and not supported by any factual data.  If it were, the age-60 

rule would not have the proposed increase to 65 as it recently has.  Just 

curious, how old are you?



        As far as non-commercial, sport, ultralight, rec. pilot ops, there's 

been no noted demarcation as to age and performance.  Same as the general 

populace, some are sharp in their older years, most are average, some become 

slow and get dangerous.  We had a local pilot examiner (ex-Western Airlines 

Captain) who stopped recently at age 80.  Still didn't wear glasses.  I have 

an 83-year-old client who still flies his Cessna 340 single-pilot.   Most of 

the older pilots I know become more cautious with age.  Part of the maturing 

process, with a bunch of self-preservation mixed in.



        Don't knock the wisdom-with-age thing 'til you've tried it.



Ed in JXN

MkII/503



---

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: Older Pilots

Hi Bob,



        I suppose that's great for funny-car drivers, but nothing I do needs 

that speed.  Unless it's movin' in on a babe at the bar!



Ed in JXN

Do not archive.

---

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: Older Pilots

On Mar 24, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Ed Chmielewski wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    Don't knock the wisdom-with-age thing 'til you've tried it.


	




S-mile wide truth there, Ed.

rsanoa

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Bell Buckle,TN

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: Older Pilots

I have to face up to it. Pretty soon I guess I too will reach that stage where I'll be counted among the "older" pilots.  But I can say, flying since 1935, and still looking for my first accident, at 88 I believe I can handle my car and airplane as safely as the really young.

  Ray

  UltraStar

  do not archive 

John Adamson <j-adamson(at)tamu.edu> wrote:

To add to Ray's observation: If it's true that older pilots have more 

financial resources (which I suspect it is), then they probably have 

more expensive (read higher performance) airplanes to fly. "Higher 

performance" would _seem_ to go along with "higher accident rates". So 

now we can look not just at accidents per hours flown but at hours flown 

in type.

The key premise of the article, though, was that older pilots are 

crashing in _disproportionate_ numbers. I don't believe it's 

disproportionate at all. Older pilots are the biggest percentage of the 

pilot population. If they crash in exactly the numbers proportional to 

their percentage of the pilot population, they'd have the most 

accidents. If they crash in _fewer_ numbers than is represented by 

their percentage of the pilot population, maybe that's a function of 

their experience and judgement.

In any case, these are some ways of looking at the problem - looking at 

some data - rather than making blanket generalizations like Mr. Jet 

Pilot seems to prefer. Or am I being too "violent" here? 

As for Mr. Jet Pilot's concern with "recognizing a problem and comming 

(sic) up with ways to minimize the effects", I believe that's being done 

all the time. That's why they let old guys fly fighters today whereas, 

50 years ago, a 35-year-old was considered a little long in the tooth. 

A 60-year-old today (or a 40- or a 50-, for that matter) isn't the same 

"old guy" as was the case in, say, 1950. Which is also, by the way, why 

the Age 60 Rule has outlived its usefulness and is constantly being 

challenged: It ain't based on current research!

John Adamson

do not archive

ray anderson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Unfortunately the articles don't take into account the number of hours each group flies annually. Older pilots usually are financially able to fly many more hours yearly because of more time and money. Younger ones can't spend as much time or money as the older. So any meaningful comparison should be based on accidents per hours flown. I'd bet it would be about equal.

 Ray

 UltraStar

 do not archive

JetPilot wrote: 

biglar wrote:

>There's an article on page A15 in todays Desert Sun about "Older Pilots are Crashing in Disproportionate Numbers." It's an AP feed by Ryan Pearson, and, in my opinion, is badly biased and very slanted. Makes me want badly to bloody his nose. Take a look in your own local newspapers, or look at www.thedesertsun.com and scroll way down to the "California" section, the 2nd bullet. 

>

>Larry Bourne

>Palm Springs, CA

>Building Kolb Mk III

>N78LB Vamoose

>www.gogittum.com

> 

>

It is a well known fact that pilots slow down and make more mistakes as we get older. As people get older their minds slow down and they are not as quick to react and cannot process information as quickly as when they were young, which is critical to flying. This is somewhat offset by experience, but not enough to balance the equation. It is no suprise that older pilots have a higher accident rate. That is why airline pilots have a mandatory retirement age of 60. 

The only dissapointing thing here is that we have someone responding with denial and violence instead of recognizing a problem and comming up with ways to minimize the effects of this.

Michael A. Bigelow

--------

NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23933#23933

---------------------------------

---------------------------------

_________________
Ray S.Anderson

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: Older Pilots

At 12:06 PM 3/24/06 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  




	


John, & Kolbers,



The Civil Aeromedical Institute in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma has studied 

"Pilot Age and Accident Rates Report 4: An Analysis of Professional ATP 

and Commercial Pilot Accident Rates by Age."



It can be found at:



http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_4.pdf



What is really interesting is a chart found on the bottom of page 30.  It 

shows  accident rate for all pilots normalized to 100,000 annual fight hours 

flown.  For all commercial pilots between ages 30 to 60 the accident rate is 

pretty much level and low.  Then for the pilots over 60 the rate starts to 

increase. 



But what is really interesting is that accident rate for pilots less than 30 

years of age increase as age decreases.   This shows that they are still 

learning how to become mature safe pilots until age 30? 



Unfortunately there is no data for pilots older than 63, who a lot of us 

consider to be mature.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: Older Pilots

| Unfortunately there is no data for pilots older than 63, who a lot 

of us

| consider to be mature.

|

| Jack B. Hart FF004



I get a BFR every two years to see if I can still fly and understand 

the rules.  Other than that, it will be up to me to decide when to 

quit.  That will probably be when it ceases to be fun or it becomes 

uncomfortable.



If I can still be puttering around the airstrip with my little Kolb at 

Ray Anderson's age, I would be extremely grateful.  Hopefully, there 

won't be a bunch of bureaucrats hanging around grading my performance, 

trying to ground me for having so much fun.



Come April 8, I'll be 67 years old.  Feel very grateful that I am 

still fortunate to be able to fly my own airplane off my little green 

airstrip.  Back in the early days of Sun and Fun, used to hate to fly 

down there because of all the rules and supervision.  Was a drastic 

change from aviation life back home on the farm.



About the only serious plans I have for the future are to fly back to 

Barrow, Alaska, summer of 2009, at the ripe old age of 70.  I did 

alright at 65.  Flew shorter days, took time to smell the fireweed and 

arctic cotton, ate a lot of halibut, and visited folks and places a 

lot more.  At 70 I should be able to do the same thing even slower and 

more enjoyable.



When I first got into ultralight aviation there was a 70 year old 

gentleman that flew a Pioneer Flightstar across the US, solo and no 

ground support.  Never figured I would see the day that I could do 

that.  Maybe I will be able to also.



Take care,



john h

MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Older Pilots

 	  Quote: 	
		  Come April 8, I'll be 67 years old. Feel very grateful that I am 

still fortunate to be able to fly my own airplane off my little green 

airstrip. 	




Hauck's comments on older pilots should, of course, not be taken seriously.  It is widely believed that he is either (A) a freak of nature, or (B) an alien lifeform sent here to gain valuable knowledge on interstellar commerce and the unique properties of Seafoam.



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

Do not archive.

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: Older Pilots

Ed, if you mention S(at)#F*&% again, I'll pay Matt to ship yer asterisk  

off to the FLY-UL hangar list!!!!

regards,

Bob N.

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/



do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: Older Pilots

| Hauck's comments on older pilots should, of course, not be taken 

seriously.   |

| Ed in JXN

Hell, I'm just a puppy on this List.  Ray Anderson was Moses pilot, 

and Bob Noyer test flew for Leonardo De Vinci.



Besides, I was a late bloomer.  Didn't solo until I was 29.  Would 

have love to have started flying when I was a kid.



JP4 and avgas makes us last longer.  Don't know about Seafoam, but I 

did see a can of it in a auto parts store in Mongomery, Alabama, 

recently.  However, I was able to resist in buying it.



john h

MKIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: Older Pilots

Good Lord ! ! !



Larry Bourne

Palm Springs, CA

Building Kolb Mk III

N78LB  Vamoose

www.gogittum.com



---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject: Older Pilots

How about if we just call you 'Pleistocene Pilot' then?



Ed in JXN (MI)

Do not archive.



---

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: Older Pilots

(Promises, promises...sigh...)



He tried.  Seems they'd already heard about it though.



Ed in JXN

Do not archive.

---

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Older Pilots

Michael,



I've just got to challenge you on this one. As already posted, the, umm, .... what shall we call it 'degrading' of responses 'old' verses 'not so old' is measured in milliseconds. Still the remaining responses are far far above any safety threshold, and that's the only standard you should be judging this by. Dont be fooled by the hype that is transmitted by some organisations or individuals with another (hidden) agenda to follow.



Here are some facts/quotes for your consideration;



In an April 17, 1959 letter from FAA Administrator Elwood Quesada to the

Reverend Theodore Hesburg (urging Hesburg to serve on a board to approve the Age 60 Rule), Quesada wrote: "There exists at present no sound scientific evidence that airline piloting, or any other aeronautical activity, becomes critical at any given age."



In a November 24, 1984 letter from Dr. Frank Austin, the Federal Air Surgeon, to Dr. Stan Mohler, a former FAA medical staff member, Austin wrote: "There is no medical basis for the Age 60 Rule.  I believe this and Admiral Engen (then FAA Administrator) believes this.  It's an economic issue."



On February 15, 1989, Dr. George Kidera, an original member of the panel promulgating the Age 60 Rule, wrote: "Granting qualified pilots over the age of 60 exemptions from the provisions of 14 CFR 121.383(c) will not compromise safety."



In May 1995, an Australian Judge who overturned the Australian Age 60 Rule stated:  "Given the time and effort expended in America examining the age-60 rule, it is remarkable to say so, but it seems to me that none of the cited studies supports any conclusion about the relationship between that rule and aircraft safety."



And so on, and so on. I wont add any more quotes, this should be enough and there are other forums where this is thrashed to death.  Please just be aware that there is a difference between the union type views which are associated with career promotion and retirement benefits etc on the one hand and those such as here on the Kolb list who do it just because of the sheer fun of it !



I'm 59 now, 20,000 hrs +, still love flying, still passing my medicals, still passing my proficiency checks, why should I stop just because of the politics of some union or companies economic agenda ! I'll continue to fly subject to medical and proficiency untill I want to stop.



And surely the sheer fun of flying could be no better enjoyed than in something like a Kolb !



That newspaper article comes under the category of;...... 'Dont let the facts get in the way of a good story !' 



Enjoy Life, Enjoy flying !



David Lucas



PS. I've had no accidents either !

Do Not Archive.

esteuber(at)rochester.rr.
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:49 am Post subject: Older Pilots

Now you done it "jet pilot"....War is Declared ...!

         I can't believe anyone who knows this list could make a negative statement about "old Guys ". Where's your manners "wippersnapper "....ever hear.... respect your elders ?  Or maybe your one of them thar "provocateurs "....just likes to throw out all kinds of outlandish notions to get the old folks riled up.....I thought that was my job !

                                                                            My Bloods Up ED in Western NY

                      do not archive

ul15rhb(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: Older Pilots

Did I hear someone mention "Seafoam". Oh, oh, out of lurk-mode now!



Ralph (Mr Seafoam)

Original Firestar

19 years flying it

(older pilot ingesting my daily dose of Seafoam 

-- "Ed in JXN" <edchmiel(at)mindspring.com> wrote:


 	  Quote: 	
		   Come April 8, I'll be 67 years old. Feel very grateful that I am 

 still fortunate to be able to fly my own airplane off my little green 

 airstrip.


	




Hauck's comments on older pilots should, of course, not be taken seriously.  It is widely believed that he is either (A) a freak of nature, or (B) an alien lifeform sent here to gain valuable knowledge on interstellar commerce and the unique properties of Seafoam.



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

Do not archive.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=24009#24009





 

 

 

Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!

JeffFowler(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: Older Pilots

Hello,

 

   I'd like to point out that the figures are slightly skued to  appear that 

way simply by economics.How many people in their 20's have the money  to own 

their own airplane compared to the numbers , say, in their 40's. I know  they 

are out there, but look at the pilots that are owners where you have  your 

plane at or at the county airport and guess their age groups. I think the  largest 

group will be in their late 30's to mid 40's so this will make all  private p

ilots that are out there look old to those who simply read  statistics. Age 

probably does play a roll in slowing down a pilot's skills and I  support the 60 

rule. If you are over 60 you shouldn't be allowed to fly an  aircraft like an 

SR-71 or an F-18. But everything else should be fine. Okay,  I'll go back to 

lurk mode now.....

 

Jeff

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: Older Pilots

| (older pilot ingesting my daily dose of Seafoam 

 

Ralph:



Was that orally or rectally???

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Older Pilots

I recall 40 years ago after I earned my private pilot ticket that I did some really stupid aviating things, and survived anyway. Experience, age, and recognition that I am not physically immortal have done a lot to tame my approach to flying.



Plus I fly a lot more now in any calendar period you want to use than I did when I was younger. Recent experience (as in the last month or so) is a pretty good indicator of competence, so more active fliers are generally safer than less active fliers. I had surgery recently and laid off flying for three weeks, the longest spell of not flying in the last 4 years since I retired. Was I a safer pilot on my first flight after a 30 year hiatus or now that I'm four years older and fly an average of 80-100 hours a year?



Thom in Buffalo

do not archive

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Older Pilots

From JeffFowler(at)aol.com's recent post;



" If you are over 60 you shouldn't be allowed to fly an aircraft like an 

SR-71 or an F-18. But everything else should be fine."



In the UK there's a wee (small) Welshman in or approaching his senior years and what's his job ?  ..... He takes up young sprogs in a 1950's era Hawker Hunter jet fighter (the two seat version) and teaches them how to recover from flat spins ! ! !  You know that manouver which is basicaly impossible to recover from without something like a recovery chute ! But he does it, time and time again.



Guess he's the UK's version of Bob Hoover ! But no doubt on hitting 60 he'll loose his marbles !



Just thought I'd mention it.  



David



Do Not Archive.

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