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ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

Hello all....was up again this evening...picture was taken at 3000,cruising at 2780 rpm's  at about 82 mph...other numbers, in case you are have no idea of what the other numbers are ,here it goes..



            rpm            egt     egt

       

        oil temp/press        cht     cht 



climb at 60 mph  according to my gps was between 1600-1800 fpm.I have not tried it with a stop watch yet.



chris ambrose

m3x/jabiru a-2200

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Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:54 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

1600-1800 fpm? That is as good a climb rate as I've ever heard of in any Kolb. Very impressive. 



I get huge rates of climb occasionally, when I catch a really good thermal.



I'd like to stick one of those Jabirus on my FSII & & see what it would do.

_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

Chris,



Those are really impressive numbers !  Do you have the Jabiru 3300 on there ?   What kind of prop are you using ?  Have you checked your indicated speed at cruise against your GPS to confirm that is actual speed  ?  I ask because my cruise is around 70 MPH at 50 % power.  I can push it up to 80 easy enough but the power is quite high at that point and my fuel usage goes up a lot.   



What percent power is 2780 RPM on your Jab ?  What is your climb RPM ?   Hope you dont mind all the questions, but there are just not that many MK III Xtras out there that I have been able to compare numbers with.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

Mike,



  Climb rpm's are 3100 at 60 mph...Jabiru says cruise power is between 2800 to 2900 rpm's ...at 2900 it cruises at 92 mph.I had her up again this morning and I realy tried watching the speed and climb rate on my Lorance Airmap 1000 and it was climbing at 60 mph and showing 1400-1600 fpm with 1 notch of flaps...it seemed to go up when I retracted the flaps....Next time up will be no flaps and I'll see what the climb rate is them.The Jab is the A-2200,solid lifter 85 hp engine...ser # 1228. 



chris ambrose

m3x/jab

Fran Losey

Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 61
Location: Boca Raton, FL

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

Awesome!  You are starting to sway my decision....

---

_________________
Fran Losey
N62FL (reserved)

loseyf@comcast.net

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

Very nice numbers, I am nothing short of amazed !  You must have a really big smile on your face after performance like that    Normal takeoff would be no flaps unless you are on a very short or soft field.  Flaps do reduce stall, but they add more drag than anything, so you will be higher more quickly without flaps on takeoff.   The other reason to takeoff zero flaps is that if the engine were to quit on takeoff, you would slow down less quickly, and glide further without flaps. 



What kind of prop do you have on your plane ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

>  Climb rpm's are 3100 at 60 mph...Jabiru says cruise power is between 

2800 to 2900 rpm's ...at 2900 it cruises at 92 mph.I had her up again this 

morning and I realy tried watching the speed and climb rate on my Lorance 

Airmap 1000 and it was climbing at 60 mph and showing 1400-1600 fpm with 1 

notch of flaps...it seemed to go up when I retracted the flaps....Next time 

up will be no flaps and I'll see what the climb rate is them.The Jab is the 

A-2200,solid lifter 85 hp engine...ser # 1228.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 chris ambrose


	




When talking about an aircraft's performance, ground speed doesn't play a 

part.



You can use the gps ground speed to get a pretty good idea of how accurate 

your asi is by flying a two way, 180 degree route, at the same indicated 

airspeed, dividing by two and comparing to ground speed.



The MKIII, old one like mine and the X climb best with no flaps.



My mkIII with 10 gal fuel and me will climb 2000 fpm at 65 mph indicated 

airspeed.  The vsi needle is on the stop.  That is on a good day.  Most days 

it climbs about 1800 fpm.



Cruises at 80-85 mph, trued out, at 5000 rpm, 75% power.



Used to cruise 85 to 88 mph until I put the big Maule Tundra Tailwheel on 

it.  The big tailwheel works so much better than anything else I have tried, 

it is worth the loss of cruise to be able to rely on it to get there and get 

me home.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

I think we are all scratching our heads because you are out 

performing a Rotax 912s...  with a shorter and less efficient 

prop...theoretically...anyways,...Herb

At 01:05 PM 5/8/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Mike,



   Climb rpm's are 3100 at 60 mph...Jabiru says cruise power is 

 between 2800 to 2900 rpm's ...at 2900 it cruises at 92 mph.I had 

 her up again this morning and I realy tried watching the speed and 

 climb rate on my Lorance Airmap 1000 and it was climbing at 60 mph 

 and showing 1400-1600 fpm with 1 notch of flaps...it seemed to go 

 up when I retracted the flaps....Next time up will be no flaps and 

 I'll see what the climb rate is them.The Jab is the A-2200,solid 

 lifter 85 hp engine...ser # 1228.



chris ambrose

m3x/jab





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 43161#243161





Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

05/08/09 11:43:00

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

While it makes little difference as long as the runway is decent, I  

find one notch on takeoff gets

me off the bumps earlier (John's meadow muffins?).  As soon as I have  

established a reasonable

stability I ease them off for the better climb rate.

BB

MkIII, suzuki 3 cyl



On 8, May 2009, at 2:51 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Very nice numbers, I am nothing short of amazed !  You must have a  

 really big smile on your face after performance like that     

 Normal takeoff would be no flaps unless you are on a very short or  

 soft field.  Flaps do reduce stall, but they add more drag than  

 anything, so you will be higher more quickly without flaps on  

 takeoff.   The other reason to takeoff zero flaps is that if the  

 engine were to quit on takeoff, you would slow down less quickly,  

 and glide further without flaps.



 What kind of prop do you have on your plane ?



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 43170#243170

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

The prop I am running is a Sensenich W58DJL44 wood prop,and all speed numbers are IAS. I guess I am just used to adding 10-15* of flap on the Skyhawk to get off quicker....and it does work for the m3 too,but next time I will try no flaps and give you those numbers.I have never flown one of these before,so I really have nothing but my 172 to compare it to...I guess if I had to compare it to something ,it would be a Super Cub PA-18-150.



chris ambrose

m3x/jab

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

The prop I am running is a Sensenich W58DJL44 wood prop,and all speed

numbers are IAS. I guess I am just used to adding 10-15* of flap on the

Skyhawk to get off quicker....and it does work for the m3 too,but next time

I will try no flaps and give you those numbers.I have never flown one of

these before,so I really have nothing but my 172 to compare it to...I guess

if I had to compare it to something ,it would be a Super Cub PA-18-150.



chris ambrose

m3x/jab

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  From my training,,   lowering the flaps increases lift as well as drag...

adding up to 10 to 15 deg of flaps increases lift far more than the drag.
	


After 20 deg the drag is increased at a far greater rate than the lift.



That said,  my testing was at 0, 20, & 40 deg of flaps on my mkIIIC  my take

off roll for 0 and 40 deg was about the same...  while 20 deg of flaps

reduced my takeoff roll by around 25%.  



Boyd Young

MKIIIC

Utah

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

Flaps do reduce stall, but they add more drag than   anything, so you will 

be higher more quickly without flaps on

 	  Quote: 	
		   takeoff.   >>


	


Where did you get that from?. Try looking out of the window on takeoff next 

time you are on a trip.Well, well, well Just look. They have the flaps down. 

I wonder why they do that?



Pat

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

Hello all...

Well...I had her up again today..made 1 take off  with no flaps and it took about 250 feet to get off and climbed at 60-65 mph IAS at 1745 feet per minute. One notch does get you off faster.



chris ambrose

M3X/Jabiru A-2200

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  Flaps do reduce stall, but they add more drag than   anything, so you will 

be higher more quickly without flaps on

 	  Quote: 	
		   takeoff.   >>



	


Where did you get that from?. Try looking out of the window on takeoff next 

time you are on a trip.Well, well, well Just look. They have the flaps down. 

I wonder why they do that?



Pat 	




Maybe you do not realize this Pat, but have been an airline pilot for many years, I know where the flaps are when I takeoff in an airliner as I set them myself and have an indicator that tells me exactly where they are      To answer your question as to Why do we always use flaps for takeoff in an airliner, because there are tire limit speeds which we would be exceeded on takeoff without flaps, any runway under 15,000 feet long would be to short for takeoff in an airliner without flaps, and because takeoff without flaps is prohibited on this class of airplane.   None of these is an issue with small propeller driven airplanes most people here fly, so the procedure that works for a 200,000 airplane is not the same as a Kolb or a Cessna...  Even in a Jet Airliner we use the minimum flaps we can for takeoff, unless the runway is very short, Icy, or other special consideration in which case we use more.  The less flaps we use for takeoff, the safer we are and the better our performance is... Even in the airliners I fly, climb and performance increases a LOT up as soon as the flaps are retracted which is something we do as soon as speed permits.



The appropriate use of flaps is something that every pilot should know and it is worth taking the time to study.  In small Cessnas and Kolbs, takeoff on a short, soft, or even rough runway, one notch of flaps is desirable to get the tires off the runway as soon as possible.  You will pay a big price for getting off the ground sooner though with much reduced performance and climb until they are retracted.  In a Kolb that accelerates like a slingshot, if you get the flaps retracted very quickly after getting off the ground, you will have a very small performance hit, maybe so small that it is not even noticeable.  If you leave the flaps down for your climb to 1000 feet, you will be sacrificing a lot of performance.  Flaps down does bring you off the ground quicker, and lowers your stall speed, but they also degrade your performance in the vast majority of airplanes.



For takeoff on normal runways with adequate length, zero flaps is the best procedure for the airplanes we fly.   With Zero flaps your:



Rate of climb will be higher

You will be climbing at a faster speed which gives you more time to react in case of engine failure.

You will bleed speed less quickly in event of an engine failure.

You will glide better in the event of an engine failure.

If you have an engine failure at a the same point in time after takeoff with no flaps, you will be higher when it happens, which gives you more options.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

.......Valid.....



chris ambrose

m3x/jab

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

Mike,



In general, you are correct, but not for every airplane. On some

 airplanes the "no flaps" position is with flaps actually reflexed several

 degrees and their ROC is less with flaps in this position than with the

 first flap position of 10-15 degrees. The "no flaps" position on these

 airplanes is for improved cruise performance, and not a good choice for

 take-off, nor recommended by the manufacturer. 



I can't remember which one it was but read recently the operators 

manual for one of the new SLSAs gave best glide performance with first

 notch of flaps. This might have been the Pipestrel, but not sure.



I've never owned a Kolb with flaps, only two early Firestars which didn't

 have flaps so I can't say with first hand experience about flaps on any

 Kolb. But do know that I get better initial ROC with 10 degrees of flaps

 on our RANS S6-S at its best climb speed than with zero flaps at the 

best climb speed for zero flaps. The two best climb speeds are different.

 Normal take-off is with 10 degrees of flaps. Soft field take-off is with 20

 degrees and then slowly reduce to 10 degrees in ground effect. The 

ground roll difference with 20 degrees is dramatic. I've done a few 

take-offs with zero flaps but the ground roll is a LOT longer and I like to

 keep my tires in the air as much as possible to reduce wear since I 

operate off of a paved runway.



Bottom line is not all airplanes use the same technique for best 

performance, so your generalization about very light wing loading

 airplanes is not completely valid.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

etzimm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 4:42 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

Mike,



There is one Kolb  peculiarity that you have not addressed in your  

discussion  on flap use.



On a typical Kolb takeoff with their typical  steep climb out,  and  

with their high thrust line effecting a strong nose down force, there  

is a very serious problem that must be overcome IMMEDIATELY in the  

event of a SUDDEN ENGINE FAILURE  in that steep climb out attitude.

To get the nose down "enough to avoid a stall" will require all the  

nose down force the kolb elevator is capable of producing  in that  

unique situation.



Flaps on a Kolb have a very positive increase in nose over authority,  

which greatly needed at that moment.



I almost always use 5 to 10 degrees of flaps on takeoff specifically  

for this reason.



I encourage every Kolb pilot  to experiment with that situation,  at a  

safe altitude sometime,  and you will  discover the danger I am  

concerned about, should it happen near the ground.



Gene Z





On May 11, 2009, at 10:41 PM, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >



 Maybe you do not realize this Pat, but have been an airline pilot  

 for many years, I know where the flaps are when I takeoff in an  

 airliner as I set them myself and have an indicator that tells me  

 exactly where they are  [Wink]    To answer your question as to Why  

 do we always use flaps for takeoff in an airliner, because there are  

 tire limit speeds which we would be exceeded on takeoff without  

 flaps, any runway under 15,000 feet long would be to short for  

 takeoff in an airliner without flaps, and because takeoff without  

 flaps is prohibited on this class of airplane.   None of these is an  

 issue with small propeller driven airplanes most people here fly, so  

 the procedure that works for a 200,000 airplane is not the same as a  

 Kolb or a Cessna...  Even in a Jet Airliner we use the minimum flaps  

 we can for takeoff, unless the runway is very short, Icy, or other  

 special consideration in which case we use more.  The less flaps we  

 use for takeoff, the safer we are and the better our!

  performance is... Even in the airliners I fly, climb and  

 performance increases a LOT up as soon as the flaps are retracted  

 which is something we do as soon as speed permits.



 The appropriate use of flaps is something that every pilot should  

 know and it is worth taking the time to study.  In small Cessnas and  

 Kolbs, takeoff on a short, soft, or even rough runway, one notch of  

 flaps is desirable to get the tires off the runway as soon as  

 possible.  You will pay a big price for getting off the ground  

 sooner though with much reduced performance and climb until they are  

 retracted.  In a Kolb that accelerates like a slingshot, if you get  

 the flaps retracted very quickly after getting off the ground, you  

 will have a very small performance hit, maybe so small that it is  

 not even noticeable.  If you leave the flaps down for your climb to  

 1000 feet, you will be sacrificing a lot of performance.  Flaps down  

 does bring you off the ground quicker, and lowers your stall speed,  

 but they also degrade your performance in the vast majority of  

 airplanes.



 For takeoff on normal runways with adequate length, zero flaps is  

 the best procedure for the airplanes we fly.   With Zero flaps your:



 Rate of climb will be higher

 You will be climbing at a faster speed which gives you more time to  

 react in case of engine failure.

 You will bleed speed less quickly in event of an engine failure.

 You will glide better in the event of an engine failure.

 If you have an engine failure at a the same point in time after  

 takeoff with no flaps, you will be higher when it happens, which  

 gives you more options.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as  

 you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 43652#243652

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:09 am Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers

 	  etzimm(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Mike,



There is one Kolb  peculiarity that you have not addressed in your  

discussion  on flap use.



On a typical Kolb takeoff with their typical  steep climb out,  and  

with their high thrust line effecting a strong nose down force, there  

is a very serious problem that must be overcome IMMEDIATELY in the  

event of a SUDDEN ENGINE FAILURE  in that steep climb out attitude.

To get the nose down "enough to avoid a stall" will require all the  

nose down force the kolb elevator is capable of producing  in that  

unique situation.



Flaps on a Kolb have a very positive increase in nose over authority,  

which greatly needed at that moment.



I almost always use 5 to 10 degrees of flaps on takeoff specifically  

for this reason.



I encourage every Kolb pilot  to experiment with that situation,  at a  

safe altitude sometime,  and you will  discover the danger I am  

concerned about, should it happen near the ground.



Gene Z



	




Concur.... I practiced this in my FSII a fair bit and the results were pretty dramatic. I was surprised at how much altitude I needed to have to be able to recover in a climbout at my lower climb speed. I figure it was at least 100'? 



So I usually would lift off but fly in ground effect to close to cruise and climb out flat like that to about 100'. Then I'd pull back and climb out at a slower climb speed for a higher ROC.



It didn't have flaps of course, but with that big flat bottom airfoil it had so much lift already I couldn't imagine needing more......



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

Mike



That was well said. Keep those great comments coming.



I use flaps to get off the ground only, within 20' of altitude I retract 

them to get better climb. My Kolb has a very low angle of attack on the 

ground even with the tail down. Homer designed it this way to make sure we 

have plenty of flying speed before we clear the ground. I use one notch of 

flaps to increase the angle of attack to get me off my draggy grass runway 

quicker.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers

Maybe you do not realize this Pat, but I have been an airline pilot for many 

years, I >>



Hi Mike,



when I am a bit sarcastic I certainly know the right target to pick! An 

airline pilot forsooth.



Nevertheless your original statement "Flaps reduce stall ,but they add more 

drag than anything" is not strictly accurate.

 AT LOW ANGLES flaps increase lift much more than they produce drag, The 

stall speed reduces BECAUSE they produce more lift. As the angle of the flap 

increases the drag component goes up until the wing produces more drag than 

lift and the plane descends at a steeper angle for the same flying speed.



I didn`t know about the tyre speed limit although what you say makes sense. 

It is not something which concerns the average GA pilot but surely flaps 

were introduced to do their thing long before any consideration of tyre 

speed came into the picture.



The basic problem as I see it, and I am sure you will correct me, is that 

you need a different airofoil for high lift/low speed  flight than for high 

speed. All that flaps  (and the leading edge droops) do is produce a low 

speed, high lift section  with a sharp camber. This shape is less efficient 

as the speed increase and a flatter shape will produce the same lift .You 

therefore put the flaps away.

Your comment that you `reduce the flap as soon as speed permits` bears this 

out.  The airspeed dictates the airofoil camber to produce a specified 

amount of lift. As the speed goes up the same lift is produced by a flatter 

camber. If you reduce the camber before the proper airspeed is reached then 

you will fall out of the sky. Many years ago we had a BAC 111 do just that. 

The captain, by mistake,  retracted the leading edge flaps while still in 

the climb out from Heathrow and piled in.



I normally take off with first notch of flap, which at around 50/55 will 

give the best rate of climb and produce height quickly. At 500ft I clean up 

the wing and allow the speed to build. This REDUCES the angle at which I 

climb but I travel further. It is a nice balance between having a little 

extra height or a little extra speed in the case of engine failure. Take 

your pick.



Your point about "take off with no flaps will see you higher in the same 

amount of time in the case of engine quit" I believe is moot. That will need 

working out and/or plotting on a graph. You will certainly be farther from 

the field but I do not think you will be higher.

Regarding `gliding better` in the case of engine loss, define `better`. 

Anyone who has flown gliders will know that there is a speed for `farther` 

and another for flying longer. Can`t remember it all now but it has to do 

with the L/D coeffecient.



Incidentally I had a little indicator in my Challenger to show me the angle 

of the flaps. Airline pilots don`t have all the gismoz.



Cheers



Pat

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