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rv-9a-online(at)telus.net
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 Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:26 pm Post subject: Ground Power |
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Bob, there's been some discussion on ground power setup over on the VAF list, and there's an issue that has come up that needs your sage advise.
My design is based on a modified version of the one you have published (I use the milspec plug and add an over-ride so that I can force power out of the connector as well). Another builder has a different design that feeds the electrical system after the master contactor (not directly to the battery): See http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/90Electric...eBookPage2.pdf.
I contend that if he has a dead battery, he cannot charge it with ground power, or even with a running engine. In my opinion, this defeats one of the purposes of ground power, which is jump-starting an aircraft with a dead battery. Since you can't fly without electrical power (usually). He claims that this is the way Cessna does it, and maybe they think that if you have a dead battery, you should charge it with a proper charger rather than jumpstarting and using your (overstressed) alternator to do the job for you.
What are your thoughts on this?
The list is here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=286211#post286211
Thanks,
Vern Little
[quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: Ground Power |
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At 07:24 PM 1/3/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob, there's been some discussion on ground power setup over on the VAF list, and there's an issue that has come up that needs your sage advise.
My design is based on a modified version of the one you have published (I use the milspec plug and add an over-ride so that I can force power out of the connector as well). Another builder has a different design that feeds the electrical system after the master contactor (not directly to the battery): See http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/90Electric...eBookPage2.pdf .
I contend that if he has a dead battery, he cannot charge it with ground power, or even with a running engine. In my opinion, this defeats one of the purposes of ground power, which is jump-starting an aircraft with a dead battery. Since you can't fly without electrical power (usually). He claims that this is the way Cessna does it, and maybe they think that if you have a dead battery, you should charge it with a proper charger rather than jumpstarting and using your (overstressed) alternator to do the job for you.
What are your thoughts on this? |
It's a toss up. It's being done both ways on TC
aircraft since day one. All biz-jets at H-B can
be operated from ground power with the battery
switch off.
The architecture described in your cited link was crafted
by someone who marches to his/her own drum. Set up your
own design goals and drive toward them. When I crafted . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
I was coming from a background of having a line boy
hitting my 14v airplane with a 28v ground power
cart. That got me to thinking about the fact that
the C172XP offered no way for the pilot to have
absolute control over external power. It also
occurred to me that I could be hit with a reversed
polarity. I wanted to KNOW when ground power was
available before it was actually connected to
the airplane. Ov protection was a pretty
good thing too. Finally, I wanted to charge a
battery externally without powering up the
whole airplane.
The architecture you cited was crafted to different
goals. I'm mildly curious as to why the fuses
were added . . . but then, one builder's goals
are another builder's conundrum.
The lesson to be learned here that ANY architecture
crafted to rational design goals is fine. The risks
are that some features are driven my irrational
concerns. Other features may be driven by incorrect
deductions. Nobody's rationale is "golden". Decide
what you want to do, make it happen and understand
its limitations.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
[quote][b]
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woxofswa
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Ground Power |
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I am bumping this after a search.
I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my RV10.
I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and contactor from BandC.
My primary goals are:
1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power, and go fly.
2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove access panels.
3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo spare battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before my first start.
I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off. I'm okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However, I would like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes sense.
Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
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_________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014 |
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Matt Dralle
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26321
Location: Livermore CA USA
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: Ground Power |
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At 05:42 PM 5/9/2009 Saturday, you wrote:
| Quote: |
I am bumping this after a search.
I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my RV10.
I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and contactor from BandC.
My primary goals are:
1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power, and go fly.
2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove access panels.
3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo spare battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before my first start.
I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off. I'm okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However, I would like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes sense.
Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
|
Hi Myron,
Attached are some pictures of my GPU power installation in the RV-8. Works great and allows me to charge the battery, run the avionics, or start the engine. I also included the backbone wiring schematic. I'm using the Vertical Power VP-200 electrical system, but the GPU wiring should be fairly common. The GPU wiring is shown in the lower right hand side of the diagram. I haven't updated the diagram yet, but you might need to add a connection between the Sense input on the GPU plug through a Normally Open push button to the EBus (and through a small fuse or polyfuse). What I found was that the late-model chargers won't turn on their output unless they see about 4-5 volts. So, they won't pull the GPU relay down when you plug the GPU plug in. The button allows you to pull the relay in and make the charger think there is voltage. The only catch is that your aircraft battery has to have enough juice to pull the relay down.
Let me know if you've have any questions.
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
Laying Carpet Out in CAD...
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rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.ne
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: Ground Power |
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Hi Myron,
I installed the ground power circuit per Bob Nucolls including the breaker
switch in my RV-6A. I used it pretty much as you describe except that I
never had occasion to start the engine using ground power. All through the
early testing and any time I wished to run electronics on the ground, I used
a battery charger conneccted to the ground power receptacle. I also did an
endurance test on the battery to determine how long it would maintain
avionics in the event of an alternator loss when the battery was one year
old. Then, I re-charged the battery via the receptacle. It was a great
convenience an did all the things I intended.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
---
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: Ground Power |
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5/10/2009
Hello Myron, You wrote: "1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start
it from ground power, and go fly."
NOT a good idea -- (especially if the weather is woxof).
If the alternator quits before it has time to recharge the batterey (that
could take quite a while) then you have an airborne electrically dead
airplane.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
============================================================
Time: 05:51:00 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Ground Power
From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
I am bumping this after a search.
I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my
RV10.
I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and
contactor
from BandC.
My primary goals are:
1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power,
and go
fly.
2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove
access
panels.
3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo
spare
battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before my
first
start.
I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off.
I'm
okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However, I
would
like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes sense.
Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
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woxofswa
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Ground Power |
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>>not a good idea<<
Thank for the input. I understand where you are coming from. That is one reason why I am going with the two alternator system. I plan on flying to several unimproved strips where 110vac wouldn't be available for charging, but a car battery for a jump would, like Monument Valley (where I got stuck once).
Since I fly for a living I want a capable airplane, but I lost all interest in woxof IFR in GA aircraft thousands of hours ago!
Here in AZ, our IFR weather last year was on a Tuesday I believe.
Matt,
Thanks for the pix. Very nice craftsmanship.
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_________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014 |
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walter.fellows(at)gmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: Ground Power |
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Thanks for the post, your installation is nicely documented.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)> wrote:
[quote]At 05:42 PM 5/9/2009 Saturday, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com (woxof(at)aol.com)>
>
>I am bumping this after a search.
>
>I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my RV10.
>
>I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and contactor from BandC.
>
>My primary goals are:
>
>1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power, and go fly.
>
>2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove access panels.
>
>3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo spare battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before my first start.
>
>I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off. I'm okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However, I would like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes sense.
>
>Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
>
>Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
>
>--------
>Myron Nelson
>Mesa, AZ
>Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Hi Myron,
Attached are some pictures of my GPU power installation in the RV-8. Works great and allows me to charge the battery, run the avionics, or start the engine. I also included the backbone wiring schematic. I'm using the Vertical Power VP-200 electrical system, but the GPU wiring should be fairly common. The GPU wiring is shown in the lower right hand side of the diagram. I haven't updated the diagram yet, but you might need to add a connection between the Sense input on the GPU plug through a Normally Open push button to the EBus (and through a small fuse or polyfuse). What I found was that the late-model chargers won't turn on their output unless they see about 4-5 volts. So, they won't pull the GPU relay down when you plug the GPU plug in. The button allows you to pull the relay in and make the charger think there is voltage. The only catch is that your aircraft battery has to have enough juice to pull the relay down.
Let me know if you've have any questions.
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
Laying Carpet Out in CAD...
[b]
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