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M3X pictures,numbers
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 7:44 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

within 20' of altitude I retract them to get better climb.>>

Hi,
define `better`. travelling farther faster or climbing more quickly.

See my long and boring reply to Mike.

This has all the making of a thread that will run and run.

Pat


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JetPilot



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:


I normally take off with first notch of flap, which at around 50/55 will
give the best rate of climb and produce height quickly. At 500ft I clean up
the wing and allow the speed to build. This REDUCES the angle at which I
climb but I travel further. It is a nice balance between having a little
extra height or a little extra speed in the case of engine failure. Take
your pick.

Pat


For a normal runway, I don't use any flaps in my Kolb. If the runway was short, rough, or soft, I think Rick's method of retracting the flaps at 20 feet is the best. Rick gets the best of both worlds this technique, he gets off the ground a bit quicker, and then retracts the flaps quickly enough that he does not lose any of his climb performance.

I disagree that the first notch of flap will give you the best rate of climb. You should test a climb to 500 feet with a notch of flaps as you do now, and then do a takeoff without flaps and time how long it takes to get to 500 feet at best rate of climb speed. I will also do this the next time I fly and post my results. This is something that easy to do and can settle this issue very easily since we don't have performance graphs.

One thing I have done a lot of is pulling the power off abruptly in a 60 MPH full power climb to simulate sudden engine failure on takeoff, my MK III easily has enough down elevator shove the nose over very quickly when it happens. It is nothing short of amazing how quickly I need to react given the steep climb angle I have with the 912-S. This is something that EVERYONE here should try no matter which Kolb they fly, having the practice and ability to do this properly could really save your life if you lose your engine after takeoff. Do this at a safe altitude, and dont be shy, really jerk the power off quickly, if you want to simulate a sudden engine failure, it is a real eye opener in a Kolb Shocked

As far as climbout, my MK III with the 912-S with its high thrust line and forward CG when I have passengers needs quite a bit of up elevator as it is to overcome the high thrust and forward CG on takeoff. The last thing I want is to need even more up elevator to overcome the pitch down one notch of flaps would create.

I like to climb at best rate of climb, that gets me the highest the fastest. Best rate of climb in my Kolb is faster without flaps than it is with flaps, it is around 55 to 60 MPH in my Kolb, so I climb at 60 MPH, at anything over 60 I see the climb start to fall off. Having the extra speed would help a lot by giving me more time to push the nose over in case of an engine failure. Being slower and having the extra drag of flaps is exactly what I don't want in case of sudden engine failure on climbout. Again, this is easy enough to try at altitude. I hope you give these things a try, and post your observations on them. I will try these thing the next time I am up, maybe tomorrow, although it will be a tough sell to my wife as I have flown my Kolb the last 6 days in a row Very Happy

Mike


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:20 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 1:47 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

pull one notch of flaps but keep your hand on the handle so that you can either apply more flaps or in the most likely case, slowly release more and more of the flaps while you are in ground effects to get your speed up. Once you have reached normal flying speed go ahead and climb >>

Hi there,
Thats all pretty fancy and obviously on a very rough patch of ground you should get airborne as quickly as possible to lessen the chance of breaking something. However that is a trade off against the danger of staggering into the air at bare flying speed when a slight drop in the wind speed can put you back on the ground, hard.
In any case, as I have mentioned before I have this abortion of a flap lever in my 111Xtra which necessitates letting go of the throttle, reaching across my body with the left hand and grasping a handle which projects from the rear of the cockpit at a height between my shoulder and my elbow. Then i have to pull it towards me to release it from the detent and slide it up or down to the next notch. There is no way that I am going to go through that rigmarole 5ft above the ground at marginal flying speed.
It is possible I believe to `jump` into the air in some aircraft by deploying the flaps and using the extra lift which that generates and then struggle on in ground effect as speed build up. Don`t fancy the idea much.
When taking off the idea is to get the maximum lift for the speed you can attain. If you are slow you need a high lift airofoil. Deploying the flaps achieves that. As your speed increases you can fly more efficiently with a flatter airofoil section. Taking off the flaps does that.

Cheers

Pat
[quote][b]


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JetPilot



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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

Pat,

What kind of place are you flying out of ? I would have thought being in england, that all the grass strips would be manicured green golf course smooth strips, thats the ones they show us over here on TV anyways Wink

They did change the flap lever for the better on the Xtra, its above my head in the middle, and very easy and quick to get to and to operate.

Mike


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lucien



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:

Hi there,
Thats all pretty fancy and obviously on a very rough patch of ground you should get airborne as quickly as possible to lessen the chance of breaking something. However that is a trade off against the danger of staggering into the air at bare flying speed when a slight drop in the wind speed can put you back on the ground, hard.
In any case, as I have mentioned before I have this abortion of a flap lever in my 111Xtra which necessitates letting go of the throttle, reaching across my body with the left hand and grasping a handle which projects from the rear of the cockpit at a height between my shoulder and my elbow. Then i have to pull it towards me to release it from the detent and slide it up or down to the next notch. There is no way that I am going to go through that rigmarole 5ft above the ground at marginal flying speed.
It is possible I believe to `jump` into the air in some aircraft by deploying the flaps and using the extra lift which that generates and then struggle on in ground effect as speed build up. Don`t fancy the idea much.
When taking off the idea is to get the maximum lift for the speed you can attain. If you are slow you need a high lift airofoil. Deploying the flaps achieves that. As your speed increases you can fly more efficiently with a flatter airofoil section. Taking off the flaps does that.

Cheers

Pat


Don't understand how flying in ground effect in a soft-field takoff is "staggering into the air"? I've done zillions of max performance soft-field takeoffs in numerous planes and have never noticed this?

LS


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:11 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

List
I hope this is helpful to some.
FWIW, on T/O I set flaps first, before even starting the T/O roll;
then open the throttle fully & keep one hand on the throttle and one
on the stick untiI I get some altitude. That way your passenger (if
you have one) can't change anything big, and you're in good position
to handle an engine-out or bird collision or other emergency. I fly
in ground effect, a couple feet off the ground, until I reach Vx or
Vy, your choice. Then climb to my desired altitude; THEN retard
throttle, raise flaps, whatever else I need to do.
Keep both of your hands on the controls until then!
I do NOT want to fiddle with flaps or anything else until the
aircraft is stabilized in climb, at the target airspeed and a safe
altitude. Certainly don't want to take a hand off when I'm only a
few feet high. I realize if you're alone in a Kolb, and the throttle
has a good friction-lock, you can take that hand off and do other
things. But it's not a good idea to do any such things when you're
still low.
On a soft field you want to lift off the ground ASAP, then fly at a
foot or two -- what Pat calls 'staggering into the air' -- until
speed builds. That way, if you should fall out of a gust at least
you'll only drop a very short distance.
One very exciting thing happened on climbout in a friend's aircraft,
when the flaps, set at 20 degrees, banged themselves down to zero,
due to a worn notch. Neither of us were near the flap-handle. Glad to
say my reflexes kicked in, I shoved the stick forward in about half a
nanosecond, and we recovered uneventfully. It's good to consider,
before even taxiing, "what should I do if this or that happened -- "
Then you'll have a proper mindset ready to go when and if something
pops up. Or down .
Pat, I wonder if it would be easier for you to switch hands; drop the
throttle, take the stick in your left hand & use your right hand for
the flaps? At a safe altitude of course.
Anyway, let's us all fly as safely as possible
Russ K


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:14 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

They did change the flap lever for the better on the Xtra, its above my head
in the middle, and very easy and quick to get to and to operate.>>

Lucky you! how they ever let my design out of the shop door is beyond me.

I fly from a farmers field, 15ft hedges at both ends but plenty of room. It
is kept pretty well mown. That is farmers mower, not a lawn mower but it
gets pretty wet at times

Pat


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:17 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

Don't understand how flying in ground effect in a soft-field takoff is
"staggering into the air>>

Hi Lucien,

If you are relying on ground effect to stay airbourne then that is
staggering into the air in my book.

Cheers

Pat


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lucien



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:

Hi Lucien,

If you are relying on ground effect to stay airbourne then that is
staggering into the air in my book.

Cheers

Pat


Interesting, as that's not in any book I've ever read. You do understand the effects of ground effect, right? And its use in soft-field and even short-field takeoff technique?

I.e.

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/185905-1.html

LS


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:58 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

climbing out of ground effect will have the opposite effect.. There will be
a dramatic increase in the drag, which may be seen by the pilot as a loss of
thrust. At any rate, the increase can be quite dramatic when an aircraft
that was flying just a second ago quits and settles back to the runway. .

Hi Lucien,
thanks for the reference to that article quoted above.

I think it validates just what |I said. If I may paraphrase "Flying in
ground effect means that you are airborne but not `really` up to flying
speed" That is not to say that the effect cannot or should not be used. In
the particular circumstance of a soft or rough field , but even if you have
done it zillions of times unless you NEED to use it ,it is a pointless
exercise.
It is much safer to have a few mph in hand above stalling speed BEFORE you
leave the ground.

Cheers

Pat


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

. I fly
in ground effect, a couple feet off the ground, until I reach Vx or
Vy, your choice. >>

Hi Russ,
I said this one would run and run.

You obviously have had much more experience than I but unless you need to be
quickly clear of rough or soft ground I would rather build up the speed with
my wheels on the ground and then lift her off.

Cheers

Pat


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 4:25 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

At 12:02 PM 5/14/09 +0100, you wrote:
Quote:


You obviously have had much more experience than I but unless you need to be
quickly clear of rough or soft ground I would rather build up the speed with
my wheels on the ground and then lift her off.


Pat,

With the FireFly, I always tease it off into ground effect, then advance the
throttle and accelerate it up to at least 50mphi before climbing out. There
are several reasons for this. Normally I fly off a runway that is open on
one side and a subdivision on the opposite side that includes tall trees. I
have found that the air closer to the ground is less disturbed and lower
velocity than air higher up when a cross wind is coming over or around the
subdivision. I like the idea of getting the FireFly completely under
control and up to speed just one or two feet off the ground before blasting
on up into the turbulence.

Taking off and landing in/on grass is the exception for me. I have been
suckered onto tall grass fields and grass runways that were covered with
water that could not be seen until you were touching down. These
conditions make for interesting take off because of the FireFly's small
wheels.

Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:42 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

Pat
You're right, and this needn't run on forever! I think we're saying
pretty much the same thing anyway.
On hard-surfaced runways I lift the tail about 50-55 & lift off about
70-75. (Vx is around 62)
On soft ground or grass I lift off as soon as I can, usually below
60. This immediately stops the drag of grass or soft ground & I can
accelerate faster, in ground effect, until I reach 70 or more; then
climb out.
Both hands on the controls all the time of course!
In a couple inches of soft snow you may have to make several runs up
& down the runway to mash the snow down & pack a couple of sort-of-
paved ruts for your wheels to run in, without a lot of drag.
Otherwise you wouldn't ever get fast enough for a takeoff.
Not suggesting anything to anybody, but it works for me.
Russ
On May 14, 2009, at 7:02 AM, pj.ladd wrote:

Quote:


. I fly
in ground effect, a couple feet off the ground, until I reach Vx or
Vy, your choice. >>

Hi Russ,
I said this one would run and run.

You obviously have had much more experience than I but unless you
need to be quickly clear of rough or soft ground I would rather
build up the speed with my wheels on the ground and then lift her off.

Cheers

Pat




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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:16 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

Pat

Flying in ground effect is flying within one half the wings span of the
ground. Lift is increased, drag decreased, and stall speed is less. There is
a whole type of craft that never goes above ground effect called WIG.

Now to make this Kolb related. When we talk about flaps we need to specify
flaps verses flaperons. In Kolbs flaps produce mostly drag and some
increased lift. I'm told that flaps are considerable more effective in
producing drag than flaperons.

When flaps (all Kolb types) are retracted the angle of incidence of the wing
is reduced so if nothing else is done a Kolb will not fall out of the sky
even when near stall speed. Granted when flaps are reduced there is some
pitch up trim change but as pilot in command I'm not just along for the ride
so I adjust pitch for the conditions. Also in take off conditions my plane
will noticeably surge ahead when I reduce flaps from one notch to none so
any potential stall is quickly eliminated well ahead the impact of a pitch
trim change.

When flying a standard gear leg Kolb you can't get off the ground till you
are well above stall speed even with flaps. If you switch to the longer gear
legs Kolb recommends that you reduce the incidence of the wing. Also flying
a 912 (any) or a Redrive VW powered Kolb the acceleration is sufficient that
you have to work at keeping the airspeed low for a better climb rate. Under
powered Kolbs may react differently.

I do on occasion take off with a strong down wind from my one way strip. But
again I'm not just along for the ride and I will add considerable airspeed
to my climb out of ground effect.

Also Pat, I have never heard of any Kolb flap handle mounted between my
elbow and shoulder??? Is that some England required mod? My old MKIIIC flap
handle is mounted about top of my head high.

Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

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Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:
climbing out of ground effect will have the opposite effect.. There will be
a dramatic increase in the drag, which may be seen by the pilot as a loss of
thrust. At any rate, the increase can be quite dramatic when an aircraft
that was flying just a second ago quits and settles back to the runway. .

Hi Lucien,
thanks for the reference to that article quoted above.

I think it validates just what |I said. If I may paraphrase "Flying in
ground effect means that you are airborne but not `really` up to flying
speed" That is not to say that the effect cannot or should not be used. In
the particular circumstance of a soft or rough field , but even if you have
done it zillions of times unless you NEED to use it ,it is a pointless
exercise.
It is much safer to have a few mph in hand above stalling speed BEFORE you
leave the ground.

Cheers

Pat


Er, no it kind of refutes what you said Wink. That's the "effect" of ground effect - remember, stall is determined by _AoA, not airspeed_. When flying in ground effect, you already _are_ safely below stall AoA at a significantly lower airspeed because of the effective increase in wingspan and aspect ratio. Thus, you lift off at a lower ground speed, which is easier on the tires, airframe and everything.
But, it's quite right you're not going fast enough to be able to fly out of ground effect - that's why you stay in it until you get enough speed up to maintain a safe AoA _out_ of GE.....

It's not a useless exercise, it's good practice and one that has been taught forever as far as I know. For soft fields, of course, it's practically required technique.

LS


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:52 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

<< Thus, you lift off at a lower ground speed, which is easier on the tires,
airframe and everything.
But, it's quite right you're not going fast enough to be able to fly out of
ground effect - that's why you stay in it until you get enough speed up to
maintain a safe AoA _out_ of GE.....>>

Hi Lucien
All that is of course true but in the case of our machines what are we
tallking about...5 mph? How much wear and tear can that produce? What have
you saved .. just a few seconds of rolling time.
As your article states `if you are not up to speed when you try to fly out
of GE you will be back on th ground` I would rather be on the ground for
those extra few seconds and then rotate positively.

Good thread though
Pat


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:57 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

Also Pat, I have never heard of any Kolb flap handle mounted between my
elbow and shoulder???>>

I wish I hadn`t . It is b******y awkward. You get used to it but you
certainly don`t want to be messing about with it close to the ground. It is
not just a mod. required over here. That was the way the kit came.

I think it must have escaped when the works were not looking.

Cheers

Pat,


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

Otherwise you wouldn't ever get fast enough for a takeoff.(in Snow)

Russ,
A very experienced micro flier once told me that one year when there was
heavy snowfall and he couldn`t leave his farm to visit his girl friend he
tied the bumpers from an old car on to his microlights undercarriage. He
said it worked. He was a pretty hairy flyer anyway

Pat


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: M3X pictures,numbers Reply with quote

I always tease it off into ground effect, then advance the
throttle and accelerate it up to at least 50mphi before climbing out.>.

Hi Jack,

different techniques suit different people and different circumstances. The
grass on my strip is usually reasonably well cut and in any case there is a
fair amount of room.
I always use one notch of flap, always take off at full throttle and always
get the tail up as quickly as possible. Inever watch the ASI. I watch the
runway. The Kolb and the seat of your pants will tell you when she is ready
to fly.

Pat


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