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White Paper on Russian Generator System
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

I am no longer a "warrior"... just a "used to be" old fart at this point.  Freaking Marines don't even want to let me carry a weapon anymore in IRAQ~!  

  

 (screw that~!)

  

 Merry Christmas, 

  

 Mark

 



 

 ---

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Rob Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Hi TJ,



I'm away for the holidays so no schematics to hand ... however if memory serves me right the TKE52PODR has three sets of contacts, only one of which turns the generator warning light on/off.



Of the other two;

- one isolates the battery from the voltage (series) side of the differential relay

- and the other replaces that feed with the output of the DC generator



So if this relay is faulty in effect the "voltage" side of the differential relay is now being referenced to the battery rather than the generator output and also serves as an alternate current path for the load, either (or both) of which might well be a factor in the low drop out level (20% rpm) etc.



So it may be worth a punt to pull that relay & see if it can be salvaged as it's a relatively quick check that might just resolve your problem ... and I guess if you're not able to get the bits for the alternator option until after the holidays then you may as well give this a try in the meantime.



Hope this helps.



Rob Rowe



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Rob:

My "Gen Out" light has been notoriously unreliable for the last year.

It does not come on at any time, except maybe once in a while.

I discovered if I "TAP" on relay TKE52PODR which is connected to terminal "C" of the combined device the light comes on, but then won't work correctly for long.  Funky relay I think.



That replacement "200" would never kick the gen offline and flat short the battery, but I switched off the GEN switch instantly and nothing else popped.  That "200" is out of the airplane.



My gen comes on normally at 36%, but does not turn off below 34%.  It is more like 20%.  The GEN OUT light may or may not come on.

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Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

I am running  NGK's , auto plug wires and Bose headsets and have no radio noise issues in my 52. Smooth and quite. With the Bose I could hear a rocker on the #1 that was clicking and after adjusting it the noise went away. Recently four of us flew 150 miles cross country.  My plane was the only one with auto plugs.  I burned 1.5 to 2.5 gal per hour less than the other guys who made me buy coffee for feeling so good. That and a spinner on mine are the only thing different between the planes.

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tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Follow up on the Russian Generator System thread link.



After consulting with Mark Bitterlich and many others, and throwing around lots of parts... turns out my batteries were bad.



Showed 24v, but failed load test.  Thanks Mark.



Tj

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shahnow

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 1
Location: MALAYSIA

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Hi All,



I have a situation with Mi-17-1V Russian Aircraft whereby when pilot switch off all the generators after flight, I found that the combine device DMR-200D still combining Rectifier Bus and Battery Bus.



I have test the DMR-200D to simulate as per on Aircraft operation. The "B" is shorted to "+" terminal, "-" connected to ground, 'MAINS' connected to Battery +24V, 'GEN' connected to DC Supply +28V.



I run the test. after put in the DC supply +28V, the DMR-200D combine the DC supply +28V with the Battery +24V. Thats mean when I measure the voltage at both terminal of 'GEN' and 'MAINS' the voltage are the same.

Then I reduce the DC Supply +28V down to 0V. I found that the DMR-200D still combining the between the two terminal 'GEN' and 'MAINS'



I have two new DMR-200D. I tried both and the results show same.



My question. Is the DMR-200D was designed to be like that? 



Is there a way to change the wiring connection so that the DMR-200D will release the combination of 'MAINS' to 'GEN' after we cutoff all the powers of generators of aircraft? 



Refer attachment for the wiring diagram of DMR-200D on the Mi-17-1V aircraft.

Thanks,

Shahrul

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conn of RCCR.ppt

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conn of RCCR.ppt

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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: White Paper on Russian Generator System

Dear Shahnow, please write me directly at markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com (markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com)  and send me your attachment again.  I did not get it on the YAK list.  

  

 I am reading what you said carefully, and I think I might know what you are doing.  

  

 When you reduce your power supply voltage to ZERO, you are checking between the GEN and MAINS terminals with an OHM meter.  That is my guess anyway?  Or are you still seeing battery voltage on the GEN side?  

  

 Try this first:  

  

 Disconnect the B terminal from ANYTHING.  In fact, just take a DMR 200 device with nothing hooked to it and you should be able to see a complete OPEN between GEN and MAINS.  No connection should be there at all.   

  

 Now apply 28 volts to the terminal marked "A" with ground connected to the "-" contact on the DMR-200.   The letter "A" has a flat top to it.  /-\   like that with a flat line on the top that I can't put in with this keyboard.  It is right above the GEN terminal on the right side.  You should hear a pretty loud sound as the MAIN CONTACTOR relay closes.  This will connect MAINS to GEN and it will be a LOUD SOUND when you do this as the relay closes.    Remove the power to "A" and you will hear the relay open and power will be disconnected between GEN and MAINS.  This tests just the main contactor alone.  

  

 With the test you are running, the problem you are having is NOT with the DMR-200 but with your actual test equipment.  It is very very tricky to test this device and make it work the way it actually works in the aircraft.  I suspect everything you have is working properly the way you explained it.. but it is not actually doing what you might think it is doing.  I know that sounds strange, but this is a very complicated device.  What is happening is that your power supply is not exactly duplicating what happens in the an actual aircraft with a real generator in there instead of a power supply.  I suspect your particular power supply is now allowing reverse current.  

  

 Let me explain.  

  

 With the way you have it set up, the relay will stay closed as you have said, because of the battery now powering the device and keeping it closed.   Here is how you can complete your test.  Do exactly as you have already done.  When you get to the point where you reduce the power supply voltage to zero... do exactly the same thing and then REMOVE the PLUS wire from the power supply to the GEN contact.  

  

 Now take a load... something like a big 28 volt light bulb.  A landing light will do.  Connect it between your battery MINUS lead and the GEN contact.  As soon as you do this, current will flow from the MAIN contact to the GEN contact and will light up the bulb, but only very briefly.    This is REVERSE CURRENT!  As soon as the DMP-200 senses this reverse current with the reverse current relay, the device will OPEN and the contact between GEN and MAIN will open.  

  

 Remember the way it works in the aircraft.  

  

 By putting in a jumper between the B and GEN and then putting power on the GEN/B connection, you are simulating an aircraft generator.  When the generator voltage (or power supply voltage) gets high enough the DMR-200 will turn on and connect GEN to MAIN.  Yours did this, and it is normal. 

  

 Once connected, the job of the device is to disconnect GEN from MAINS only if it sees reverse current flowing from the MAINS back to the GEN.  Which would be the case if the generator stopped spinning or failed.  

  

 ANYWAY... what you are SEEING is normal, but is not quite the way it works in the aircraft, basically because your test setup power supply is not allowing reverse current.  

  

 I am going by memory on all of this and need to see the diagram again, but I think ... and I need to check this... but I think if you disconnect the jumper you have from B to +,  the device should OPEN and disconnect GEN from MAINS.  I need to check that, but I will get back to you on it.  I could be wrong on that, and will get back to you on that by tomorrow.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

  

 

   From: shahnow <shahnows(at)yahoo.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:26:56 PM

Subject: Yak-List: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System



--> Yak-List message posted by: "shahnow" <shahnows(at)yahoo.com (shahnows(at)yahoo.com)>



Hi All,



I have a situation with Mi-17-1V Russian Aircraft whereby when pilot switch off all the generators after flight, I found that the combine device DMR-200D still combining Rectifier Bus and Battery Bus.



I have test the DMR-200D to simulate as per on Aircraft operation. The "B" is shorted to "+" terminal, "-" connected to ground, 'MAINS' connected to Battery +24V, 'GEN' connected to DC Supply +28V.



I run  the test. after put in the DC supply +28V, the DMR-200D combine the DC supply +28V with the Battery +24V. Thats mean when I measure the voltage at both terminal of 'GEN' and 'MAINS' the voltage are the same.

Then I reduce the DC Supply +28V down to 0V. I found that the DMR-200D still combining the between the two terminal 'GEN' and 'MAINS'



I have two new DMR-200D. I tried both and the results show same.



My question. Is the DMR-200D was designed to be like that? 



Is there a way to change the wiring connection so that the DMR-200D will release the combination of 'MAINS' to 'GEN' after we cutoff all the powers of generators of aircraft? 



Refer attachment for the wiring diagram of DMR-200D on the Mi-17-1V aircraft.

Thanks,

Shahrul





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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=244724#244724





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keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:10 am Post subject: Re: White Paper on Russian Generator System

How about "Tron" short for, well you know...electron.

Keith



[quote="ByronMFox(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 2/14/2007 9:29:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, KingCJ6(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Rob - if not previously bestowed upon you, a call sign of "Sparky" is clearly  befitting your excellent demonstrated expertise!

	


 Nope,Dave. Sorry, "Sparky" already belongs to Doug Sapp's lovely daughter. I'll go for "Sparks", though. ...Blitz, Chairman

    AHSACSC

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

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