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Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK
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jmaynard



Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:19 pm    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 06:44:17PM -0700, cookwithgas wrote:
Quote:
Then there is Jay Maynard who purchased his from a store. Jay I can
understand why you keep stirring the pot here because there are hundreds
of parts you don't understand. It makes sense because you wrote a check
and picked up your airplane from the airplane store. No disrespect (I'm
happy for you), but there is no way you can understand what most of us are
talking about here. I welcome your emails, but you aren't really in the
same arena as most of the guys here pulling rivets alone in the garage
with a passion that an airplane purchaser can't comprehend.

Well, I guess I've been firmly put in my place.

I know damned good and well I don't know as much about my airplane as those
of you who have been lucky enough to build one. I'm learning everything I
can about my airplane, and about aviation, and it will never be enough - for
me, or, apparently, for you.

That doesn't mean that I'm going to stick my head in the sand about
potential problems.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Scott,

With all due respect to you, I think you are being very unfair to Jay
and many others.

I have built a complete Zodiac XL from the bottom up, and mine is
grounded. As I mentioned several times on this list and in other
venues, I respect the decision announced by the NTSB. I don't agree
with it, but I respect the organization and their "Authority" on
matters like this.

The kind of familiarity you and I have with this design is more than
Jay's. That can have a great influence on our confidence in the
design. It doesn't make us accident analysis experts.

One funny experience I have had is discussion with many people both
inside and out of the Zenith builder's community. To a man, every
single one I have talked to outside the Zenith community tells me
grounding my plane was the correct choice. All who have expressed
any opinion that seemed to show some knowledge of aviation said the
ailerons need to be mass balanced -- just like the NTSB said. This
has included many old guys including some from the FAA, local
experts, A&P mechanics, and others. It is only Zenith insiders who
have suggested to me that the design is fine the way it is.

'nuff said.

Paul
XL grounded
At 06:44 PM 5/28/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
Then there is Jay Maynard who purchased his from a store. Jay I can
understand why you keep stirring the pot here because there are
hundreds of parts you don't understand. It makes sense because you
wrote a check and picked up your airplane from the airplane
store. No disrespect (I'm happy for you), but there is no way you
can understand what most of us are talking about here.


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cookwithgas



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Paul:

Grounded? What does that mean? Has it flown yet? Who grounded your airplane? Have you had the FAA look at it? Sorry for the ignorance but I haven't spent the time I should to catch up on your progress.

Are you one of the guys who contacted the NTSB in the first place so they could attempt to ground you (and me thank you very little)? I won't prolong this nonsense anymore. You guys have fun chatting about the sky falling and I'll remain un-grounded.

Have a nice day,

Scott Laughlin
601XL/Corvair (dangerous at any speed)


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:43 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Scott C

I don't know what's come over you lately C but I like it! You're asking many of the questions I've been thinking of.  I look forward to meeting you some day.  I think I'll go unground my plane this weekend (now that I have the tools to set the cable tension properly) C and go flying.

Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey

[quote] Subject: Re: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK
Date: Thu C 28 May 2009 21:04:08 -0700
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com>

Paul:

Grounded? What does that mean? Has it flown yet? Who grounded your airplane?  <<SNIP>>
Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. Check it out.
Quote:
[b]


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:22 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Scott,

I appreciate your words. You are right in my case. I have not touched my plane since I got the NTSB bulletin. I read this list to try and gain knowledge and have to sort through the arm chair quarterbacks who know it all yet have not done much. It makes the process difficult.

This list was meant to be a discussion forum but for a while they it turned into a bashing list. Things were stated without concrete evidence/support and others ran with it. I work in a quality group that studies issues and then suggest counter measures. We use hard data to make decisions about path of travel for the judgment phase and then the solution. This list seems to roll dice and pick something in some cases.

I try to remember that the demonstrator for Zenith has thousands of hours and there are many with several hundreds of hour on their units. The builders can smile on most all of their flight hours. You can see it in their comments about their flights.

I personally am waiting to pay cash for my engine kit but wrestle with the still needed $28k investment. (Engine and electronics) Late this years if I can get my motivator started I should have my firewall forward and then things can move on. Till then, I need comments as yours to help filter out the crap and motivate.

Thanks again for your comments.

Rich Simmons
Murfreesboro, TN
601XL Canopy and brake lines
Working in IFR Cert in a Cherokee 140
I really like flying!

OH,

DO NOT ARCHIVE

[quote][b]


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jmaynard



Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:58 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 09:04:08PM -0700, cookwithgas wrote:
Quote:
You guys have fun chatting about the sky falling and I'll remain
un-grounded.

Not that you give a fuzzy rat's posterior about me and my airplane - after
all, I'm just a lowly buyer, not one of the exalted types who built one (and
are scratch builders even more exalted than kit builders? are quick-build
kit builders even more lowly than slow-build kit builders?) - but my
airplane is *not* grounded. I've flown 165.6 hours in it since I took
delivery on June 10 of last year, and will probably have 175-180 hours in it
by the time of the first annual. I'm planning on going flying this evening
after I'm done working at the airport.

Outside the Zodiac community, there are folks who won't get in the airplane
because of the NTSB recommendation. I wound up having to travel over 250 nm
to find a pilot examiner to give me my CFI-SP checkride because the local
one is one such person. I've been told by some people that they don't think
much of her decision. I've got no problem with it, and certainly don't place
the blame on her; the answer "no" is *always* acceptable to the question
"can we make this flight?" in aviation. I don't place the blame on ZBAG;
their actions have been in the interest of safety, nothing more and nothing
less. I don't blame the NTSB, either (except in that they seem to be
contradicting themselves, something I'd love to see a better explanation
for). To me, Zenair's attitude needs work. They seem to be interested mainly
in denying a problem, when their focus, in my opinion, should be on doing
whatever it takes to restore confidence in the type. Issuing denials won't
cut it. Doing whatever testing is necessary - and releasing full and
complete documentation on the tests - is the only approach that wil work in
the long term.

To answer an accusation that was leveled at me in the other message: No,
I'm not just stirring the pot. I, and folks who aren't intimately associated
with the type, have legitimate questions about the aircraft that have not,
to date, been answered. Until those answers are found, the type will have a
black eye in the eyes of both the aviation community and the wider public.

Our interests are not well served by denying that there's a problem. They're
better served by either *proving* there's not a problem, or else finding the
problem and fixing it.

Grounding one's Zodiac is a personal decision. I carefully evaluated the
risks and decided I would be comfortable with flying mine as long as I did
so with the risks in mind, and take appropriate actions to minimize those
risks. I respect the decision of some folks to ground theirs, just as I
respect the decision of others not to. What I do not respect is those who
have displayed the hazardous attitudes of invulnerability (it won't happen
to me), antiauthority (don't tell *me* what to do!), or macho (taking
unjustified risks is good and manly). Those attitudes are quite evident from
some posters on this list.

I hope that the folks who are displaying those attitudes will at least
maintain their aircraft to the highest standards and fly them
conservatively. Quite aside from the obvious consequences to them and their
families in the event of a crash, the resuts in terms of public confidence
in the type and the value of existing aircraft would be devastating.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:47 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Yep, we do tend to be snobs. To add to your pecking order, folks that design their own flying machines trump the scratch builders. I have not done that, but both of my sons are engineers and we dream. Hope we get to it before I check out.

No disrespect is intended toward anyone.

Cheers,
Bill

601XL

do not archive


Jay said:
Quote:
after all, I'm just a lowly buyer, not one of the exalted types who built one (and
are scratch builders even more exalted than kit builders? are quick-build
kit builders even more lowly than slow-build kit builders?)


[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Scott, & listers,
Thanks for the voice of reason.
Everyone should read the letters at
http://www.zenair.org/nuke/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17

There are at least two instances of 601XL's that have had aileron
flutter and have live to tell about it.
When I first found out that this could be a problem back in December, I
checked the tension on my aileron cables at about 25 hrs flight time.
They were loose. They had been checked before the DAR came and were
within specs. I check them on every preflight, they have not loosened
again. I attribute it to wear in of the parts.

The problem that I dealt with the most was leaky screws around the fuel
senders. Could have been the source of an explosion that could have
caused a wing to fold??

Thank goodness for my DYNON180, it showed low fuel pressure on climb out
after takeoff, the warning would only occur for a few seconds. The
gascolator screen had a fine mesh like silk on it, after cleaning no
more problems. Without this warning I am sure that I would have bellied
in some field.

I am sure that most people on this list would get along very well if
they were to meet at a flyin. Just about anything can be said with a
smile. On this list, everything is taken personally and gets heated.

I miss Sabrina's posts.

David, N601EX 81 hours and flew yesterday


<cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com>

Guys:

I've been reading these flutter posts once again till I'm blue in the
face


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 6:42 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Jay, You seem to believe the speculation by the NTSB but not the proven
tests done by
the German engineers. You say "Zenair's attitude needs work", I believe
their attitude
is fine and have taken the proper steps.
To me, Zenair's attitude needs work. They seem to be interested mainly
Quote:
in denying a problem, when their focus, in my opinion, should be on doing
whatever it takes to restore confidence in the type. Issuing denials won't
cut it. Doing whatever testing is necessary - and releasing full and
complete documentation on the tests - is the only approach that wil work
in
the long term.


The results of the German-led GVT (Ground Vibration Tests) are in and
they are unequivocal: The Zodiac CH 601 XL and CH 650 E are not subject
to flutter if built, maintained and flown as intended by Zenair. The
linear flutter tests confirmed this for all speeds up to 400 km/h and
with aileron control cable tension down to less than ten pounds. Chris
Heintz and representatives from Zenair Europe will be meeting with DAeC
engineers in Germany during the coming week to review results of the
recently concluded tests and to discuss the process for lifting
remaining flight limitations on the LTF-UL certified aircraft.

---


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jmaynard



Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 09:38:07AM -0500, Randy wrote:
Quote:
Jay, You seem to believe the speculation by the NTSB but not the proven
tests done by the German engineers. You say "Zenair's attitude needs
work", I believe their attitude is fine and have taken the proper steps.

Some of the proper steps. They should release the full report they got from
the engineers so that the actual conclusions may be evaluated.

As things stand, I believe that flutter is not the issue - as I have said
since Zenair sent out their press release. That does not explain why Zodiacs
are breaking up in flight. We still do not know what the issue *is*.

Zenair's best tool in this discussion is total, complete openness. So far,
they've been more interested in stonewalling. That's what I mean by a change
in their attitude.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:10 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

I have not seen any reference to where we might find a copy of the
reports to read. The only public information I have found so far is
a short video that shows testing of a CH650.

If you know of a location where the supposed report can be found,
please publish it.

Paul
XL grounded
At 07:38 AM 5/29/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
The results of the German-led GVT (Ground Vibration Tests) are in and
they are unequivocal: The Zodiac CH 601 XL and CH 650 E are not subject
to flutter if built, maintained and flown as intended by Zenair.


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:39 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Don't include me in that "we". I don't care how anybody gets a plane, even the renters. A person who shares my interests will give me reason to start a conversation, what they have to say will give me reason to continue or walk away.

Do not archive


[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:41 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Paul, for you I totally concur whole heartily that you and your airplane should be grounded. We "others" will continue to turn dead dinosaurs in to fun. Best regards, Bill of Georgia


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your support.

I have always agreed with Jay's recent comments that this is a
decision each of us must make for ourselves. There are no universal
answers. This could change if there are ever any actual facts about
the causes of the XL accidents. For now it is simply an open question.

One small correction, my Zodiac is grounded but I am not. I have
been flying nearly every day since receiving my leased Tecnam P92
Echo Super Deluxe a couple of weeks ago. I imagine it has very
similar performance and behavior to the Zodiac XL. Alas, it has a
Rotax engine instead of the Jabiru in my XL.

Just for the record, I don't consider Zodiac XLs to be dead
dinosaurs. It is still the ideal design for my needs and perhaps the
best LSA there is. Unfortunately, it has a small cloud hanging over it.

Best regards,

Paul
do not archive
At 10:41 AM 5/29/2009, you wrote:

Quote:
Paul, for you I totally concur whole heartily that you and your
airplane should be grounded. We "others" will continue to turn dead
dinosaurs in to fun. Best regards, Bill of Georgia


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:20 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Paul, is this the model you got?
http://p92.org/
(talking abot the one with wings, not the ones near the dog)

Carlos

2009/5/29 Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)>
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)>


Hi Bill,

Thank you for your support.

I have always agreed with Jay's recent comments that this is a decision each of us must make for ourselves.  There are no universal answers.  This could change if there are ever any actual facts about the causes of the XL accidents.  For now it is simply an open question.

One small correction, my Zodiac is grounded but I am not.  I have been flying nearly every day since receiving my leased Tecnam P92 Echo Super Deluxe a couple of weeks ago.  I imagine it has very similar performance and behavior to the Zodiac XL.  Alas, it has a Rotax engine instead of the Jabiru in my XL.

Just for the record, I don't consider Zodiac XLs to be dead dinosaurs.  It is still the ideal design for my needs and perhaps the best LSA there is.  Unfortunately,  it has a small cloud hanging over it.

Best regards,

Paul
do not archive


[b]


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Sorry Paul, I'll slow down a bit. 'The phrase 'turning dead dinosaurs into fun' actually meant to use gasoline made from petroleum extracted from underground pools of decayed ancient carbon based life forms of which dinosaurs are included by internal combustion in the engines of our 601 XLs by flying them in the air and thereby gaining enjoyment and pleasure. Best regards, Bill


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Hi Carlos,

Yes, that's it. You even got the paint colors right. Only difference I can see is mine has a two blade Sensenich ground adjustable composite prop.

Paul
do not archive

At 11:11 AM 5/29/2009, you wrote:

[quote]Paul, is this the model you got?
http://p92.org/
(talking abot the one with wings, not the ones near the dog)

Carlos[b]


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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:35 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

No problem Bill.

Have you heard the dinosaurs didn't really become extinct? They became birds.

Best regards,

Paul
do not archive

At 11:15 AM 5/29/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
Sorry Paul, I'll slow down a bit. 'The phrase 'turning dead
dinosaurs into fun' actually meant to use gasoline made from
petroleum extracted from underground pools of decayed ancient carbon
based life forms of which dinosaurs are included by internal
combustion in the engines of our 601 XLs by flying them in the air
and thereby gaining enjoyment and pleasure. Best regards, Bill


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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 8:45 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

I nearly killed a bird today. We have a family of Mottled Ducks (black mallards) that like to sit on our runway. So far only a few tense moments and no bird strikes. I wouldn't mind if these ducks would get a bit more extinct.

Ed
[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:48 am    Post subject: Flutter Testing shows 601/650 OK Reply with quote

Hey Ed ,what do you expect when you named your plane" Papa Goose".
Wade Jones South East Texas

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