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dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

Most of the time I land into the wind. If I lower the nose I progress further over the ground.

The example I was given many years ago was was something like this.

If you stall at 30 and have a 30 MPH headwind you will never make the field flying at 30. 

If you fly 45 into a 30 MPH headwind your chances are better.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: Thank you

so you may be able to end up higher, but at a lower airspeed than when you 

started.>>



Hi Dana,

thats why I said "disregarding other losses" or words to that effect.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: Thank you

If you stall at 30 and have a 30 MPH headwind you will never make the field 

flying at 30. >>



Don`t understand. What has stalling to do with it?



Cheers



Pat

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

Dale,



Your accident would not have happened if you had VG's on your Firestar.  The difference VG's make on a Kolb are nothing short of miraculous, especially in the conditions you describe.  On my MK III Xtra, I get a full 10 MPH reduction on stall, but that is not the best part.  Low speed handling and response is just amazing.  I used to feel like the plane was mushing and that I was on the edge of control if I got much below 60 MPH in the pattern, now I can do turns at 40 MPH, and it feels perfect.  At a weight of 1000 pounds I can do power off approaches holding 50 MPH and get a greaser landing out of it, never touching the power.  None of this was possible before my plane had VG's.



Your practicing for engine failures is a good thing, you will be ready and know how to react properly when the time comes.  Having a plane that is much more capable of flying well and landing at slower speeds will also improve your safety by a large margin if your engine ever quits.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: Thank you

> Your accident would not have happened if you had VG's on your Firestar. 

The difference VG's make on a Kolb are nothing short of miraculous, 

especially in the conditions you describe.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike


	




No kidding!



How did you come up with this profound statement?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Thank you

Probably pulled it out of that "Dark" place ... He pulls alot of answers

and comments out of there...

.

.

Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" the Flying Dog

.

.

.

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: Thank you

you two guys must be reading my mind a properly built Kolb with a qualified pilot doesnt need VG's



Ellery in Maine



--

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:25 pm Post subject: Thank you

John



We had some yahoo ranting for seemed like for ever, like he knew more than 

any of the engineers at Rotax and you hardly gave him any of your wisdom. 

Yea I hope I don't get him started again. Then Mike makes a comment that 

might be a good safety suggestion and you zing him.



I was talking to a retired commercial pilot last week with 20,000+ hours 

that flies a firestar II. He said learning to land the Firestar was about 

the most difficult thing he ever had to learn. Transitioning from a Lear Jet 

would seem to be a big change. Adding VGs helped a bunch.



Now there is nothing wrong with the stock Kolb design but if VGs helps some 

people why not? I got a ride in a MKIIIC last winter with VGs and it did 

seemed to land slower. I might even try a set of VGs on my airplane.



Also starting to think about flying to Oshkosh are you going? Is anyone else 

planning to fly? Sure would be fun to have a big group of Kolb flyers in the 

camp ground.



Oh please do not archive



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: Thank you

 	  Quote: 	
		   We had some yahoo ranting for seemed like for ever, like he knew more than 

 any of the engineers at Rotax and you hardly gave him any of your wisdom. 

 Yea I hope I don't get him started again. Then Mike makes a comment that 

 might be a good safety suggestion and you zing him.


	




Rick:



I quoted what I was responding to:



 	  Quote: 	
		   > Your accident would not have happened if you had VG's on your Firestar.

 The difference VG's make on a Kolb are nothing short of miraculous, 

 especially in the conditions you describe.

>

> Mike


	


Still curious how Mike B knew VG's would have saved the ship.



Still waiting for someone to demonstrate to me how "miraculous VGs are".



Sorry your experienced friend has difficulty flying a FS.  If VGs helped him 

keep from breaking his FS, great.  I haven't found a situation where I could 

not live without them.



You are not reading what I was writing.  I have never, nor will I ever bad 

mouth VGs.  I have flown a FS with them.  I don't need them.



Please don't make me out as a bad guy.  I do all right flying my airplanes 

the way I prefer to.



I doubt I will fly to OSH.



Thanks,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

Hi guys, I have not yet tried VGs, but a friend has bought some for our planes.

There are reasons I question weather VGs would have helped in my situation.

I was not stalled, I was sinking.

I expect VGs would lower my stall, not sure they would stop the sink I was having when I was not stalled.

I flew with a friend that has the same plane I do and has VG's. I think I remember him losing altitude at speeds lower than my stall but I don't remember for sure.

Set me straight if I have this wrong, seems to me the VGs big advantage is more control (ailerons not stalled) and then second slightly more lift because wing is not stalled.

Do I have this wrong? could I for instance climb at lower speeds than before?

 

Not sure if it is related but if I gently pitch up I stall at an indicated 45.

If I pitch up quickly I stall closer to 35.

I have front enclosures and static vent is in the cockpit.

It does seem to stall slower.

The difference it these 2 stall speeds seem to be similar to the reports of VSs performance.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: Thank you

I'm sure many of us have shared the experience of somehow making a  

non-damaging landing out of

one that seemed only a second or two earlier to be sure catastrophe.   

Part luck, part good responses,

part that wonderful ground effect cushion.  Big heavies are also  

subject to down drafts but less immediate

due to their mass.  Watching a FF approach in gusty wind makes me  

glad to have ole tubby, the MkIII.



I respect the atmosphere more than ever, especially now that I am  

older and less bold.

But, if you do want to regain a feel for the plane after a period of  

little flight you would do better going

out and wrestling the breezes than waiting for dead calm only.

BB, more of a sissy than I wuz



On 23, Jun 2009, at 12:35 PM, dalewhelan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>



 Hi guys, I have not yet tried VGs, but a friend has bought some for  

 our planes.

 There are reasons I question weather VGs would have helped in my  

 situation.

 I was not stalled, I was sinking.

 I expect VGs would lower my stall, not sure they would stop the  

 sink I was having when I was not stalled.

 I flew with a friend that has the same plane I do and has VG's. I  

 think I remember him losing altitude at speeds lower than my stall  

 but I don't remember for sure.

 Set me straight if I have this wrong, seems to me the VGs big  

 advantage is more control (ailerons not stalled) and then second  

 slightly more lift because wing is no stalled.

 Do I have this wrong? could I for instance climb at lower speeds  

 than before?



 --------

 Dale Whelan

 503 powered Firestar II

 Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 49692#249692

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: Thank you

At 12:35 PM 6/23/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi guys, I have not yet tried VGs, but a friend has bought some for 

our planes.

There are reasons I question weather VGs would have helped in my situation.



Do I have this wrong? could I for instance climb at lower speeds than before?


	


If you have $100 to spare, it will be the best $100 you have ever spent on

your plane. You can climb at an unbelievable angle at an unimaginable

low speed without stalling -----at least on a single seater (stall 

reduced at least

5 or 6 mph, control increased - but you would have to experience

that part of to know what I'm talking about.)



This thread has been beaten to death.



If you don't want to reinvent the wheel, buy them from

www.landshorter.com



and use their templates and instructions to install them, they've

already done the work.



Most of these were shot with VGs and are all, of course, "Photo 

shopped" and no ducks were killed

or injured and not eaten during the making of these films as per PETA 

guidelines.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4600043392041186975



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8022448200127542755



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5232234046747826901



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid 622632755661898541

_________________
Possum

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: Thank you

Lol.



==================

---- possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net> wrote: 



=============




At 12:35 PM 6/23/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi guys, I have not yet tried VGs, but a friend has bought some for 

our planes.

There are reasons I question weather VGs would have helped in my situation.



Do I have this wrong? could I for instance climb at lower speeds than before?


	


If you have $100 to spare, it will be the best $100 you have ever spent on

your plane. You can climb at an unbelievable angle at an unimaginable

low speed without stalling -----at least on a single seater (stall 

reduced at least

5 or 6 mph, control increased - but you would have to experience

that part of to know what I'm talking about.)



This thread has been beaten to death.



If you don't want to reinvent the wheel, buy them from

www.landshorter.com



and use their templates and instructions to install them, they've

already done the work.



Most of these were shot with VGs and are all, of course, "Photo 

shopped" and no ducks were killed

or injured and not eaten during the making of these films as per PETA 

guidelines.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4600043392041186975



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8022448200127542755



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5232234046747826901



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid 622632755661898541 

--

kugelair.com

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:11 am Post subject: Thank you

properly built Kolb with a qualified pilot  doesnt need VG's>>

  

 Hi Ellery,

  

 2 points. From the flying point of view I don`t  think anyone has claimed that you NEED them. They just make things a bit  easier.

  

 Second point. In the UK with an Xtra you DO NEED  them because you will not be allowed to fly it as a microlight without them.  With no VG`s you cannot get the stall speed low enough to fit into the formula  which must be met to qualify as a legal microlight.

  

 Horses for courses?

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

  

  

   [quote][b]

sky-king(at)inbox.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: Thank you

Don't want to cause any undue heart-ache,but,I installed landshorter vg on my mk3 and love them.



[quote] --

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

Accidental Double post, read below...

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Last edited by JetPilot on Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:12 pm; edited 2 times in total

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  



Still curious how Mike B knew VG's would have saved the ship.



john h

mkIII 	




John,



I know this based on experience with flying my Kolb both with and without VG's.  Given the amount of damage to the plane, he was beyond the planes performance but a SMALL amount, not by a lot.   VG's have increased my performance by more than this amount.   I have done flight tests, and even posted videos of my plane landing with no power at 1000 pounds in the same circumstances described in Dales accident.



There is another KOLB MK III based at my field that has no VG's , he can not even com close to landing power off at the speeds I can.  People that have flown both airplanes are just amazed at how much better mine handles and lands.   They describe his Kolb as dropping and landing hard with power off at slower speeds, while mine greases right on.



We have done comparisons, and I can say that given Dales speed, and the amount of damage to the airplanes, that properly installed VG's would have most definitely made the difference in this case.



Dale,



You did not read my post very well, I talked about " MUSH " and how the stall speed was not the best part of VG"s...  Elimination of the mush and reduced response at slower speeds is probably the best part of VG"s.  I stated this very clearly.   I have posted this many times in the past before your accident.   If you do put on VG's, the design and placement of VG's is CRITICAL to them working well.  Just cutting some aluminum and placing them where it " Looks Right " does not cut it.  Spend the 100 bucks and get them from and follow their directions exactly.



www.landshorter.com



Now you have the best information and advice you are ever going to get on how to make your Kolb perform better at low speeds.  You can either try VG's for yourself, put them on temporarily with 3M double sided automobile trim tape if you are hesitant to do anything permanent to your airplane ( I did this )... That way you can get them off if you don't like them.  You can either try vortex generators for yourself or ignore the evidence, its up to you.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: Thank you

> I know this based on experience with flying my Kolb both with and without 

VG's.  Given the amount of damage to the plane, he was beyond the planes 

performance but a SMALL amount, not by a lot.   VG's have increased my 

performance by more than this amount.   I have done flight tests, and even 

posted videos of my plane landing with no power at 1000 pounds in the same 

circumstances described in Dales accident.



 	  Quote: 	
		   There is another KOLB MK III based at my field that has no VG's , he can 

 not even com close to landing power off at the speeds I can.  People that 

 have flown both airplanes are just amazed at how much better mine handles 

 and lands.   They describe his Kolb as dropping and landing hard with 

 power off at slower speeds, while mine greases right on.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   We have done comparisons, and I can say that given Dales speed, and the 

 amount of damage to the airplanes, that properly installed VG's would have 

 most definitely made the difference in this case.


	




 	  Quote: 	
		   Now you have the best information and advice you are ever going to get on 

 how to make your Kolb perform better at low speeds.  You can either try 

 VG's for yourself, or ignore the evidence.



 Mike


	




Mike B:



I don't agree with anything referenced above.



The only thing that would have helped Dale W keep from busting his and his 

girl friend's butts would have been more airspeed.  Larry Cottrell could 

probably add some actual experience information he gained by stalling his 

FSII equipped with VGs.  This is also the airplane that I have flown several 

times to see how the VGs perform.  Larry also busted his butt when he got 

too slow, too close to the ground, with the "devices".    If you stall 

the airplane close to the ground, with or without VGs, you are going to bend 

and/or break something.



I have well over 6,000 documented landings, in my log book, in all kinds of 

conditions on my mkIII alone.  Most of them have been power off right to the 

ground, full flaps, full stall.  All the other mkIII's I have flown, land 

the same way.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Thank you

John H,



What kind of VG's does Larry have ?   The only time I have seen reports that VG's have had little effect is when they have been made at home, not the exact same size and shape, or when they have been put on incorrectly.  Like I said, as with anything in aviation, they must be put on to precise tolerances or they wont work very well.



Your experience in a Kolb may be why you think VG's are not needed.  I am sure you can out fly anyone here, and I think your skill level is to the point that you don't even notice things that would be difficult for most others.  You could probably do a very difficult landing in a Kolb with a cup of coffee in one hand while carrying on a casual conversation, while others would bend the gear.  Where VG's would help most others, you would compensate with skill, I just have to guess that is why you don't really notice the difference.



I do wish you would get the chance to fly a Kolb with properly designed VG's that are put on exactly like they should be.  I would be very interested to see what you think.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Thank you

John H,



What kind of VG's does Larry have ?   The only time I have seen reports that VG's have had little effect is when they have been made at home, not the exact same size and shape, or when they have been put on incorrectly.  Like I said, as with anything in aviation, they must be put on to precise tolerances or they wont work very well.



Your experience in a Kolb may be why you think VG's are not needed.  I am sure you can out fly anyone here, and I think your skill level is to the point that you don't even notice things that would be difficult for most others.  You could probably do a very difficult landing in a Kolb with a cup of coffee in one hand while carrying on a casual conversation, while others would bend the gear.  Where VG's would help most others, you would compensate with skill, I just have to guess that is why you don't really notice the difference.



I do wish you would get the chance to fly a Kolb with properly designed VG's that are put on exactly like they should be.  I would be very interested to see what you think.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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