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New alternate engine on my MKIII
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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: New alternate engine on my MKIII

How much does your Yamaha weigh?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: New alternate engine on my MKIII

Time:        11:43:03 AM PST US                         From:        robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)>                         Subject:        Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII           What RPMs have you been using? snow can be fun too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?

 

 Bob, List,

 

 Flying Kolbs is fun, riding Yamaha snow machines is fun.  Some folks combine the two.

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkjRVTkbt7o

 

 Dave Kulp

 Bethlehem, PA

    [quote][b]

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII

I did not weigh the engine before install, but I do know the bare engine with carbs weighs 119#.  I do believe the total install with radiators, exhaust, gearbox came in at about 180#



The new Yamaha snowmobile engines have a little larger displacement (1050cc), are fuel injected, and weigh a couple pounds less.  I chose not to go with the fuel injection because when you change the intake and exhaust you need to rejet the carbs.  I feel to properly adapt the fuel injection engine, you need to get a mapable injection system and put it on a dyno with all the instruments to get the fuel delivery correct.  With the carbs, I change the jets and read the plugs.  It is interesting that Yamaha fuel injection does not use a O2 sensor so once it is set up, it would be ok to use 100LL.



I hooked up with the person who made the gearbox adapter on the rotary forum.  Below is a link to a lengthly thread if you would like additional information.



http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16100&highlight=yamaha

The contact info for information and plans for the gearbox adapter:

e-mail: razorkisss(at)aol.com

Phone:(719) 499-2378 

His name is Todd

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: New alternate engine on my MKIII

Wow!  Thanks DaveBB



On 3, Jul 2009, at 11:16 AM, Dave Kulp wrote:

[quote]              Time:       11:43:03 AM PST US                    From:       robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)>                    Subject:       Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII         What RPMs have you been using? snow can be fun too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?

 

 Bob, List,

 

 Flying Kolbs is fun, riding Yamaha snow machines is fun.  Some folks combine the two.

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkjRVTkbt7o

 

 Dave Kulp

 Bethlehem, PA

  	  Quote: 	
		  

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: New alternate engine on my MKIII

An all up wt of your plane, noting any differences from standard, 

would be really helpful....Hope everyone on the list is as interested 

as I....Herb

At 10:38 AM 7/3/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I did not weigh the engine before install, but I do know the bare 

engine with carbs weighs 119#.  I do believe the total install with 

radiators, exhaust, gearbox came in at about 180#



The new Yamaha snowmobile engines have a little larger displacement 

(1050cc), are fuel injected, and weigh a couple pounds less.  I 

chose not to go with the fuel injection because when you change the 

intake and exhaust you need to rejet the carbs.  I feel to properly 

adapt the fuel injection engine, you need to get a mapable injection 

system and put it on a dyno with all the instruments to get the fuel 

delivery correct.  With the carbs, I change the jets and read the 

plugs.  It is interesting that Yamaha fuel injection does not use a 

O2 sensor so once it is set up, it would be ok to use 100LL.



I hooked up with the person who made the gearbox adapter on the 

rotary forum.  Below is a link to a lengthly thread if you would 

like additional information.



http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16100&highlight=yamaha

The contact info for information and plans for the gearbox adapter:

e-mail: razorkisss(at)apl.com

Phone:(719) 499-2378

His name is Todd





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 51309#251309





Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

07/03/09 05:53:00

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII

I doubt the engine would last long at 7000  RPM.  On a snowmobile, they use full throttle in short bursts, very little time is actually spent at 7000 RPM.  Think about it, a 120 HP snowmobile would be up to over 100 MPH in about 5 seconds at full throttle, most time is spent at far less RPM and power.   That being said, maybe the Yamaha engine would last a long time if it were limited to 100 HP and maybe 5500 RPM on a Kolb.  One other thing I really like about this conversion is the Rotax Gearbox, that should solve a lot of potential problems right there. This sounds like a very interesting alternative engine, I hope it works out !  Please keep the information coming, a lot of people will be interested in how this engine works for you.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:37 am Post subject: New alternate engine on my MKIII

Hi,



   Re RPM- Seems like I remember from some school I attended  a long  

time ago , that RPM

doesn't have much to do with engine life . Piston speed is what  

counts. Short stroke and

high Rpm equal a certin piston speed and a longer stroke and lower Rpm  

can equal the

same piston speed.As long as the engine is balanced and the parts are  

built to take the

stress of the piston starting and stopping- No problem. Of course the  

valve train is there

to be worried about.



   I'm not trying to present the above as a fact, Only thats what I  

was taught I don't even

remember what school I was in, some navy school I think. But it made  

sense the way it was explaned to me.



Frank Goodnight

FireStar 4 stroke

On Jul 3, 2009, at 8:07 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I doubt the engine would last long at 7000  RPM.  On a snowmobile,  

 they use full throttle in short bursts, very little time is actually  

 spent at 7000 RPM.  Think about it, a 120 HP snowmobile would be up  

 to over 100 MPH in about 5 seconds at full throttle, most time is  

 spent at far less RPM and power.   That being said, maybe the Yamaha  

 engine would last a long time if it were limited to 100 HP and maybe  

 5500 RPM on a Kolb.  One other thing I really like about this  

 conversion is the Rotax Gearbox, that should solve a lot of  

 potential problems right there. This sounds like a very interesting  

 alternative engine, I hope it works out !  Please keep the  

 information coming, a lot of people will be interested in how this  

 engine works for you.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as  

 you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 51391#251391

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII

 	  frank.goodnight(at)att.ne wrote: 	
		  Hi,



   Re RPM- Seems like I remember from some school I attended  a long  

time ago , that RPM

doesn't have much to do with engine life . Piston speed is what  

counts. Short stroke and

high Rpm equal a certin piston speed and a longer stroke and lower Rpm  

can equal the

same piston speed.As long as the engine is balanced and the parts are  

built to take the

stress of the piston starting and stopping- No problem. Of course the  

valve train is there

to be worried about.



   I'm not trying to present the above as a fact, Only thats what I  

was taught I don't even

remember what school I was in, some navy school I think. But it made  

sense the way it was explaned to me.



Frank Goodnight

FireStar 4 stroke

On Jul 3, 2009, at 8:07 PM, JetPilot wrote:



	




It's probably more how hard you work a lump of metal of a given size. In a very general way, the more power you try to extract out of an engine, the lower it's reliability and/or TBO.

This is just a simple function of the extra stresses you impose on it as the power output goes up.  More stress put on the bearings, rods, more sideloads on the piston against the cylinder walls, etc.



I.e. the 912 series are so reliable because they're generally not nearly as suped up as they could be in other applications. Even tho they spin at 5000 to 5500 on a continuous basis, they can go all the way out to TBO at those rpms because they're "only" producing 80 to 90bhp. 

Same with the rotax 2-strokes. The original sno-mo 503 that the current 503 was based on was, IIRC, rated at 75bhp. The 582 was derived from an engine that put out nearly 100bhp (this is all from old memory so I'm hoping I'm remembering this right). The current a/c motors, of course are significantly detuned over the old engines (mainly due to the exhaust used) and are even beefier in the bottom end. That's partly why they work in a continuous-duty environment.



As for conversions, you can actually get a good bit of continuous-duty reliability out of them by simply running them less hard than they're capable of assuming you still have a good power to weight at the lower power settings. I.e. the mazda rotary conversions are becoming pretty successful because they're tough as stink to begin with but can also still produce good power/weight ratios at power settings they can run for a long time at. That's all putting aside the installation issues, of course.



In fact, the main killer of auto conversions is insurance, not the engines themselves. The insurance companies are more powerful than FAA when it comes to the rules of flight we have to fly under; auto conversions that don't have some person or business behind them that they can dishonorably sue generally can't get affordable insurance coverage if they can get it at all.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII

Some things about the Yamaha motor

It is loosely related to a Yamaha R-1, very loosely.

I have seen a few of those in street trim loose connecting rods.

I have ridden people around race track at speeds of 160MPH with no problems.

The snow mobile motor chosen here is lower RPM that an R-1 or RX-1 snow mobile motor.

The area I would be worried about is the fact that the motor has a cam chain and a tensioner for that chain that I have often seen go bad.

Many automatic cam chain tensioners fail, I regularly replace them with APE manual tensioners.

The valve train is a shim and bucket design, I expect you will never wear out the valve guides.

You may contact Dyno-Jet for carb tuning components, my experience has been that you can usually get the motors to run well with th components provided. I you follow the directions exactly, you will have some tuning to do. Apologies to the engineers that designed the kits.

I have also found that most often fuel economy is noticeably reduced, throttle response is better, top end power is similar, mid range power is sometimes increased, some times the only difference is throttle response.

Just for the record, I used to teach Yamaha snowmobiles, 2 and 4 stroke motor performance tuning and Dyno Jet operation.

The factors I look at for a motors life are 

BMEP, Crank, rods, pins, bearings, cases, cylinder head hold down.

Piston speed, Piston, rings

Piston acceleration, ring flutter

RPM valve train wear

From what math I have done the people at Yamaha build good stuff. The piston speeds are higher than what used to be thought possible.

Yamaha has built motors the end up in show rooms with piston speeds in the area of 4,500 feet per minute.

I am suspect of the 1000 4 cylinder and the 500 twin, I think the triple is the best choice of those motors and am very interested in how it works for you.

I kinda like the idea of Jet ski motors, the piston to cylinder clearance is Too high, but the jet pumps only work to about 6,000 RPM so the 2 stroke motors are tuned for that speed, a good match for the 2.58 Rotax gear box and the prop I use.

The four stroke boat motors are gear reduced.

The carbs or fuel injection system are far less effected by negative Gs if you ever got an aerobatic inclination.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII

Forgot to mention, valve wear has been an issue with many Yamaha 5 valve motors. Just check the clearance, if they start to tighten up you may want to replace the valves. They get tighter as they wear and will not make noise.

If you need the valve seats cut I can do that for you.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:08 am Post subject: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII

Hello fellow Kolbers,



I just wanted to give an update on my experience with the Yamaha engine on my MKIIIC.



There is more information in this thread, so please reread from the beginning if you are interested.



So far I have about 35 trouble free hours on it.  I did reconfigure the cooling system from the video to have only 1 radiator and it still cools fine and is much simpler.  It burns about 4.5gal/hour at a cruise of 7000 RPM which is about 73 MPH on my airspeed.  I do not have a GPS so I cannot confirm that, but it seems about right.  I have it propped to turn about 7600 RPM on climb out (8500 is rated max rpm) at that RPM I am getting about 1000ft/min climb at a gross weight of 985#.  I gave up some climb to get the cruise speed up at lower RPM.  At full throttle in level flight, it will push the airplane to close to 90mph.  I get many complements about how it sounds with the exhaust system I  installed.  It has not burned any oil in that 35 hours, I have been using Amsoil but will probably change to John H's full synthetic Rotilla at the next oil change.  So far, I would give this engine a two thumbs up rating.  If it goes to 300 or 400 hours, I am way ahead of the price curve compared to the Rotax 2 strokes.  As it always is in the alternate engine game, only time will tell how it works out.



Regards

Jason

MKIII, Yamaha powered

Portland, Oregon

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Yamaha New alternate engine on my MKIII

Hello All,



I just wanted to give this thread a bump because a couple of people sent me some e-mails asking questions about my installation.  If you are interested in the Yamaha engine, please read this whole thread.  There is contact information and a link to a thread on the rotary wing forum with much more information.



I would also like to throw out a word of caution.  Adapting engines to airplane use is not for the faint of heart.  It will take you an entire season of flying to work out all the bugs.  Just because an engine has been used by someone else, does not mean all the issues have been worked out.  Some of us find it very interesting and rewarding to finally achieve the goal, but there is a journey involved.



Jason

MKIII Yamaha powered

Portland, OR

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: New alternate engine on my MKIII

I would also like to throw out a word of caution.  Adapting engines to 

airplane use is not for the faint of heart.  It will take you an entire 

season of flying to work out all the bugs.  Just because an engine has been 

used by someone else, does not mean all the issues have been worked out. 

Some of us find it very interesting and rewarding to finally achieve the 

goal, but there is a journey involved.



Jason

Jason O/Gang:



Thanks for making that qualifying comment on your work with Yamaha 

(aircraft) engines.  There are people who do not realize it is a bolt on and 

fly off forever project, at this stage of development.



It is refreshing read comments from someone who is working on a project and 

being open with their experience.



I am always interested in what folks out there doing, right or wrong, as 

long as they are doing something, and not regurgitating something they heard 

someone else say.



I'd probably be flying something other than a 912 if there was something out 

there equal to or better than.  However, the type of flying I do, I already 

have enough excitement to deal with.  Don't need to add the role of tester, 

technician, developer to that work load.



Good luck on your project.



BTW:  I will be in SE Oregon next May and planning on a possible return 

flight from the Rock House to the Oregon Coast, then south through Northern 

California before turning back east to Alabama.  Maybe we can hook up and I 

can see your project.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: New alternate engine on my MKIII

Thanks for making that qualifying comment on your work with Yamaha

(aircraft) engines.  There are people who do not realize it is a bolt on and

fly off forever project, at this stage of development.



 ***************



Sorry about that folks.  I proofed that last post and still screwed it up.



Should have read, "There are people who do not realize it (alternate 

engines) is not a bolt on and fly off forever project, at this stage of 

development.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII

Hello All,



I made a new video and posted it on youtube, below is the link



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Tlg9RMKx8



I now have a about 50 hours on the engine.  I recently put that spiffy new landing gear on it and am having to learn how to land again.  Many thanks to all the people who helped me with information on constructing a new gear.



Regards

Jason

MKIII Yamaha Powered

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: New alternate engine on my MKIII

 	  Quote: 	
		  BTW:  I will be in SE Oregon next May and planning on a possible return 

flight from the Rock House to the Oregon Coast, then south through Northern 

California before turning back east to Alabama.  Maybe we can hook up and I 

can see your project.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama 	




Hello John,



I talked with Arty at our club meeting and she will keep me updated on the timing of you folks being at the rock house.  It is highly unlikely that I would be able to convince the rest of my family that it is a good idea for me to fly away for 4 days, but I will see what I can do.



Regards

Jason

MKIIIC

Portland OR

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject: New alternate engine on my MKIII

Jason 

   send some flying video  that is very interesting looks like a great job fitting that engine to your plane have you recorded any performance numbers  fuel burn rate on it yet? 

 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

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