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PatrickW
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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 Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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| Gig Giacona wrote: |
VNE 140
MGW 1255#s |
Any ramifications for those who are about to begin Phase 1 testing...?
- Pat
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annken100
Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:50 am Post subject: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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I wish Zenith would publish more complete information. The letter from Chris is certainly a cliff-hanger. What "airplane issues" have they identified? What kind of improvements is Zenith working on? What kind of a time-table can we expect for these changes? I guess we'll have to wait until Oshkosh to find out.
The recommended 1255 pound gross weight limit is problematic for me. I was planning on losing some weight, but this is ridiculous. I wonder if I can get Zenith to pay for a Weight Watchers membership?
Ken Pavlou
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_________________
601 XL / Corvair |
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Juan Vega Jr
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Paul says- "Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight
| Quote: | and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am
more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are
clearly needed."
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Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers.
Paul says- "So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and
| Quote: | get a better plane?"
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Juan- Paul, it is clear you are not happy, fail to understand you are the manufacturer and blame others for your plane not flying. I did not say to go get a better plane, never said that Paul, there you go again not listening/ reading.
Paul says "attack on manhood"
Juan says" i offered to fly your plane for you are an honest offer, dont want it, no skin off my back, I am amazed frankly how thin your skin is. Funny how Sabrina said to chear up and go fly your plane and you thought" oh how cute, she is so smart..." Juan says the same, trying to encourage you to fly the plane you built, and its " O God! the quality of my Cojones are being questioned" . too funny.
The facts as they are:
601 has been test to adnausium, no issues found, but to apprease the few, Heintz will continue to study further,
we need to look in the mirror, and ask our selves "is my plane flyable, did I as the builder do a good job?"
The offer to fly your plane was an honest offer, not meant to threaten your skills or Cojones (thats balls in Spanish),
When I built mine, even the second 601 I helped build, it was a very intimidating thing to get in it and go I wold have loved the offer from someone.
The offer to help you still stands.
Juan
--
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Hi Juan,
Thank you for the offer to help. I really mean that. I truly believe
you want to be helpful and not offensive.
I am amazed at how firmly you want to believe in the XL
design. After the designer himself has clearly admitted there are
flaws that need to be fixed you claim his announcement is only to
appease " . . . the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they
are the manufacturers."
Indeed, kit builders are only manufacturers - not designers. We paid
for a finished, competent, design to build along with high quality
parts and documentation of the competent design. Now that it has
become apparent to nearly everyone in the world that there is a
problem with the design it is up to the designer and/or design seller
and kit manufacturer to deal with the problem.
If you really want to help me along the path of completion of my XL
then join me in asking Zenith and its partners to design and release
improvements to the design. I would like to see the ones asked for
by the NTSB. If you think there are other ones that have been
established as being needed then ask for them too.
And yes, I admit I think Sabrina is both cute and smart. I also
realize she is very young and in need of considerable development
before she reaches her peak. I am happy to encourage her, and even
to mentor her, as much as I can. You see, she is a young person who
strives to become a major league engineer. I am a retired major
league engineer. What I do to encourage and possibly help her reach
her goal is as much about me as it is about her. The fact that I
have become aware of her and her goals because of our common activity
building Zodiacs (and communicating on this email forum) is the
primary reason I can help her. I would like to think I would do as
much for anyone else with her talents, accomplishments, and goals.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 12:25 PM 7/8/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease
the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers.
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PatrickW
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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| annken100 wrote: | | The recommended 1255 pound gross weight limit is problematic for me. I was planning on losing some weight, but this is ridiculous. |
I have already lost 34 lbs (which more than makes up for the weight of my BRS). I'm a fairly big guy to begin with, and I don't know how realistic it is to be able to lose very much more.
I guess I could ask my wife to lose some weight, but somehow I don't think that would go over very well...
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair/BRS
90% and getting closer every day...
http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.hoyt
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Juan Vega Jr
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Paul said - Indeed, kit builders are only manufacturers - not designers. We paid
for a finished, competent, design to build along with high quality
parts and documentation of the competent design. Now that it has
become apparent to nearly everyone in the world that there is a
problem with the design it is up to the designer and/or design seller
and kit manufacturer to deal with the problem.
Juan response-" I am sorry to say but you are complete off the mark with regard to CH's responsibilty to us. We bought an experimental Kit, and as such assume all the risks. this is not legos. and there is nothing written any where that documents a problem , they have not found one, so you are asking to fix a problem that has not been found. I like the quote from the 1905 45 cal pistol "if it aint broke...." All data indicates no outstanding issues, so the designer has offered to do something to keep the Nay sayers at bay, far from agreeing there is an issue.
So we we agree to disagree. Lets move on.
Juan
--
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chris Sinfield
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Does this mean the original design calculations were incorrect, or that this
is a CYA?
OK what is CYA????
Chris.
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annken100
Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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| chris Sinfield wrote: | Does this mean the original design calculations were incorrect, or that this
is a CYA?
OK what is CYA????
Chris. |
Great, a question I can answer confidently! CYA= Cover Your Ass
The definition as obtained from Wikipedia:
CYA - procedures or practices that are purely defensive against legal penalties, criticism, or other potentially punitive measures. The polite explanation of the abbreviation is "consider yourself accountable".
Ken Pavlou
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_________________
601 XL / Corvair |
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Trainnut01(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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If I keep losing weight at the same rate I am now, and building my airplane at the same rate I am now, I won't weigh but twelve pounds when I'm ready to test fly.
Carroll
do not archive
Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals.
[quote][b]
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arno7452(at)bellsouth.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Yea...........let's hear it for legos!
do not archive
---
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Davcoberly(at)wmconnect.c
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Paul said - Indeed, kit builders are only manufacturers - not designers. We paid
for a finished, competent, design to build along with high quality
parts and documentation of the competent design. Now that it has
become apparent to nearly everyone in the world that there is a
problem with the design it is up to the designer and/or design seller
and kit manufacturer to deal with the problem.
No in fact if you built a Zenith you signed an agreement with these three paragraphs...
10. Custom-built aircraft are licensed by the government to fly in the applicable “Experimental,” “Amateur-Built” or “Ultralight,” etc. category. Each aircraft is treated
legally by the governing authority (FAA) as a “one-of-a-kind” in design and construction, and is liable to be unpredictable, hazardous, and even potentially lethal.
Therefore, construction and operation of such aircraft may be unsafe without acquiring, studying and complying to the letter of all instructions and manuals
pertaining thereto. The Seller does not warrant that the aircraft as constructed by the buyer, or any other person, will be airworthy, or will qualify for certification or
registration by aviation authorities, or will meet the requirement of the buyer. Notwithstanding the forgoing, seller may provide from time to time, but is not required
to provide, technical assistance during the assembly, installation and construction process. However, buyer and seller specifically agree that responsibility for
building the aircraft or its parts shall rest solely with the buyer and that no liability shall arise from or extend from any technical assistance provided by seller.
Purchaser acknowledges that the assembly and construction of the product requires certain technical experience and skill. Further seller and purchaser specifically
agree that the seller cannot and does not warrant the ability of any individual, including purchaser, to properly assemble, construct and maintain an aircraft kit of
the kind sold by seller. In exchange for such technical assistance, purchaser and seller specifically agree that purchaser shall hold harmless seller from any and all
liability which may arise from any technical advice provided by seller, seller’s employee, or seller’s agent.
11. EXCLUSIONS OF WARRANTIES, NO WARRANTIES. THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
PURPOSE AND ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, ARE EXCLUDED FROM THIS TRANSACTION AND SHALL NOT APPLY TO
THE GOODS SOLD, THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE GOODS, THE PLANS & MANUALS, THE GOODS WORKMANSHIP, THE SAFETY OF THE
GOODS DESIGN OR ANY OF THE GOODS COMPONENTS.
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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Patience guys,
The work that Chris Heintz is doing right now is not one of identifying
a fault in the design, but finding a weakest link(s) or area of the
design that can be improved. The complexity of the design lends itself
to a few percentages of failure that could be attributed to
construction, flying history, loading and all of these contribute to a
method of determining specific improvements to the design. It will be
solved, but perhaps without a formal declaration of exactitude. They are
doing the right thing by examining everything as closely as possible to
find what is either a multi-mode problem or a single point of failure
and cause.
Do fly safe,
Larry McFarland 601HDS Stratus Subaru with 137 hours at
www.macsmachine.com <http://www.macsmachine.com/>
annken100 wrote:
| Quote: |
I wish Zenith would publish more complete information. The letter from Chris is certainly a cliff-hanger. What "airplane issues" have they identified? What kind of improvements is Zenith working on? What kind of a time-table can we expect for these changes? I guess we'll have to wait until Oshkosh to find out.
The recommended 1255 pound gross weight limit is problematic for me. I was planning on losing some weight, but this is ridiculous. I wonder if I can get Zenith to pay for a Weight Watchers membership?
Ken Pavlou
--------
601 XL / Corvair
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leo.gates
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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All- I just gotta weigh in. My HDS at 1200 lbs GTW is somewhat below
the new proposed XL limit of 1255 lbs. I do have a question. Chris, in
his letter says, "Reduce aircraft gross weight to 1255 pounds (i.e. no
baggage)." What does that mean? GTW equals 1255 pounds PLUS baggage?
Back to my HDS. At 674 pounds empty I can add 20 gallons of fuel (120
lbs), myself (165 lbs), my wife (175 lbs) and 66 pounds of baggage. I
intend to fly only 3 hour legs max. as my wife and I only have three
hour bladders so remove one hour of fuel (4 gal or 24 lbs) from the five
I have and I can carry 90 lbs of baggage, cruise at 125 MPH and it is
light sport qualified.
Am I happy with my choice? You betcha!
Do not archive.
Leo Gates
N601Z
chris Sinfield wrote:
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z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:19 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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On Wednesday 08 July 2009 16:45, LarryMcFarland wrote:
| Quote: |
Patience guys,
The work that Chris Heintz is doing right now is not one of identifying
a fault in the design, but finding a weakest link(s) or area of the
design that can be improved. The complexity of the design lends itself
to a few percentages of failure that could be attributed to
construction, flying history, loading and all of these contribute to a
method of determining specific improvements to the design. It will be
solved, but perhaps without a formal declaration of exactitude. They are
doing the right thing by examining everything as closely as possible to
find what is either a multi-mode problem or a single point of failure
and cause.
|
...but we want our answers now, even if they're wrong. 
=============================================
Do not archive.
=============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
=============================================
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z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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On Wednesday 08 July 2009 17:02, Leo Gates wrote:
| Quote: |
All- I just gotta weigh in. My HDS at 1200 lbs GTW is somewhat below
the new proposed XL limit of 1255 lbs. I do have a question. Chris, in
his letter says, "Reduce aircraft gross weight to 1255 pounds (i.e. no
baggage)." What does that mean? GTW equals 1255 pounds PLUS baggage?
|
I suspect, but do not know, that he means the weight limitation effectively
eliminates the possibility of baggage if two people are on board.
| Quote: | Back to my HDS. At 674 pounds empty I can add 20 gallons of fuel (120
lbs), myself (165 lbs), my wife (175 lbs) and 66 pounds of baggage. I
intend to fly only 3 hour legs max. as my wife and I only have three
hour bladders so remove one hour of fuel (4 gal or 24 lbs) from the five
I have and I can carry 90 lbs of baggage, cruise at 125 MPH and it is
light sport qualified.
|
I looked hard at the HDS, but (in part) rejected it because of the limited
fuel. It's a personal choice: I tend to do a lot of cross countries. I climb
high, reduce the power, trim out, and stay there for 4 1/2 to 5 hours.
I also rejected an Ercoupe because of the limited load carrying capabilty.
Just now it looks like that might have been the better choice. Time will
tell.
--
=============================================
Do not archive.
=============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
=============================================
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agbeyer(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Hi Jim,
How much fuel do you want to carry? I have an HDS and can carry 29 Gal. of usable fuel. I have flown from Oshkosh to SnF and have been out west a couple of times. I have also flown 4 1/2 Hour legs. On my normal cross country flights I will burn off the wing tanks (21 Gal.) and then land with 8 Gal. left in the header tank.
Al From Oshkosh
(Jim said)
"I looked hard at the HDS, but (in part) rejected it because of the limited
fuel. It's a personal choice: I tend to do a lot of cross countries. I climb
high, reduce the power, trim out, and stay there for 4 1/2 to 5 hours".
[quote][b]
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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I still think that you should all design, build and fly your own aircraft and get off your high horses with opinion and inuendo regarding the Zenith designs.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 7/8/2009 1:27:43 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net writes:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
Paul says- "Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight
| Quote: | and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am
more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are
clearly needed."
|
Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers.
Paul says- "So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and
| Quote: | get a better plane?"
|
Juan- Paul, it is clear you are not happy, fail to understand you are the manufacturer and blame others for your plane not flying. I did not say to go get a better plane, never said that Paul, there you go again not listening/ reading.
Paul says "attack on manhood"
Juan says" i offered to fly your plane for you are an honest offer, dont want it, no skin off my back, I am amazed frankly how thin your skin is. Funny how Sabrina said to chear up and go fly your plane and you thought" oh how cute, she is so smart..." Juan says the same, trying to encourage you to fly the plane you built, and its " O God! the quality of my Cojones are being questioned" . too funny.
The facts as they are:
601 has been test to adnausium, no issues found, but to apprease the few, Heintz will continue to study further,
we need to look in the mirror, and ask our selves "is my plane flyable, did I as the builder do a good job?"
The offer to fly your plane was an honest offer, not meant to threaten your skills or Cojones (thats balls in Spanish),
When I built mine, even the second 601 I helped build, it was a very intimidating thing to get in it and go I wold have loved the offer from someone.
The offer to help you still stands.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
| Quote: | From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
Sent: Jul 8, 2009 11:04
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
At 07:18 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote:
HI Juan,
I don't understand you. You have said about ten times now that I
should give up my nearly life long project to build a Zodiac. Why do
you keep saying that.
First, I have ignored your opinion on my life's direction many times
before and will continue to do so.
Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly
my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me
and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes
you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are?
Third, your latest nonsense that I should get a better airplane and
not continue down the path of completion for my Zodiac seems the most
outrageous comment you have made to date. Why do you think I could
use such a plane when I have told you and the list many times that I
don't have a medical and can't fly anything other than LSA?
How is it that you KNOW what will not happen with regard to the XL
design enhancement?
Or perhaps, you just keep ignoring what I say just like I keep
ignoring what you say.
The simple truth is that the NTSB has DEMANDED mass balance for the
ailerons and control system redesign. I am confident that will
happen at some point. Perhaps it has already been done for the LAA
exercise. We will learn more about those secret design changes when
the LAA completes its test program. I am sure it includes mass
balance for the ailerons and other design improvements, but I am not
sure what other improvements.
Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight
and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am
more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are
clearly needed. So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and
get a better plane?
Paul
XL grounded
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>
>
>Paul,
>you will most likely not get your wish as mass balancing opens up an
>engineering can of worms. and the stick forces will not be modified
>as this is a little wing loaded aircraft with a wide speed
>envelope. I suggest you either finish the plane and sell it and get
>a heavy wing loaded aircraft like a Cessna or just sell the zoidac
>and movw on. OPtion 3 is finish your plane, and learn to fly it
>within its design parameters. You are issing out by not flying your plane.
>
>Juan
&g========================; the ties Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ===================================================
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Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals.
[quote][b]
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jonaburns
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Paul Said:
..Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly
..my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me
..and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes
..you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are?
One answer may be WHY you don't have a Medical.
Why didn't you put as much effort and research into picking the plane you were going build as you have in trying to convince as many people as possible that the 601XL is, in your mind, a "Death Trap?"
When I hear comments by a couple of people all that I can think of is Chicken Little and the Boy that Cried Wolf. Your credibility is shot and the more you say, the farther you get from kosher. Even if Zenith does find an issue, you will find something else to complain about because it won't fall within your alternate reality. Most of us won't forget that this all started out because some said the issue HAS TO BE flutter. We know where that went.
While I do sympathize with our European colleagues that are legally prohibited from flying, but I am so tired of hearing words like "DEMAND" and "GROUNDED" thrown around when all they really are is exaggerated cries for attention.
Jon Burns
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ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: New Chris Heinz Letter Today |
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Ya,
Thanks Roger for coming over and helping me BUILD today! 1.5 more
hours in the build LOG!!
E.
1.5 h closer to FLYING !!!
Do not archive
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 7:22 PM, <JohnDRead(at)aol.com> wrote:
[quote] I still think that you should all design, build and fly your own aircraft
and get off your high horses with opinion and inuendo regarding the Zenith
designs.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 7/8/2009 1:27:43 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net writes:
Paul says- "Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe
flight
>and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am
>more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are
>clearly needed."
Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease the few
that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers.
Paul says- "So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and
>get a better plane?"
Juan- Paul, it is clear you are not happy, fail to understand you are the
manufacturer and blame others for your plane not flying. I did not say to go
get a better plane, never said that Paul, there you go again not listening/
reading.
Paul says "attack on manhood"
Juan says" i offered to fly your plane for you are an honest offer, dont
want it, no skin off my back, I am amazed frankly how thin your skin is.
Funny how Sabrina said to chear up and go fly your plane and you thought" oh
how cute, she is so smart..." Juan says the same, trying to encourage you to
fly the plane you built, and its " O God! the quality of my Cojones are
being questioned" . too funny.
The facts as they are:
601 has been test to adnausium, no issues found, but to apprease the few,
Heintz will continue to study further,
we need to look in the mirror, and ask our selves "is my plane flyable, did
I as the builder do a good job?"
The offer to fly your plane was an honest offer, not meant to threaten your
skills or Cojones (thats balls in Spanish),
When I built mine, even the second 601 I helped build, it was a very
intimidating thing to get in it and go I wold have loved the offer from
someone.
The offer to help you still stands.
Juan
--
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