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W & B, cruising, stalling and landing
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:44 am Post subject: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

I still think it's magic,   or wires.>>



Hi Robert,

its magic all right.  With most magic knowing how it works makes it less 

magical. I think flying is one of those things which is still magical even 

when you know (ot think you know) the mechanics.



At least for me, when the wheels leave the ground it doesn`t matter if you 

know how or why....its away with the other broomsticks.



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

/or in the _direction_ of the relative wind will affect this.



Hi Lucien,

that is what I said., or thought I did.



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:17 am Post subject: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

Nah, it's not lift or anything like that at all. It's gobs and gobs of 

cash...>>



You crazy mixed kid! You have gone all twisted and bitter. Go fly



Cheers



Pat

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

Pat, Ladd

Got to take issue with you in re sailboats going  to windward.

You say when the apparent (relative) wind moves forward, as when   

boat speed increases, this enables the boat to point higher. It most  

certainly does NOT -- Just the opposite! You must bear off, point  

lower, point further from  the direction the wind comes from, to keep  

sailing, keep the sails full  -- or to keep lift, if in an  aircraft.  

Just substitute angle of relative wind on the boat for AOA on the  

aircraft. You can delay the luff by trimming in the sails, but  

relative wind moving forward does not allow you to point up further.

As you say, think about it. The sails will luff if you keep your  

course or bear up, you must bear off.

Sorry to disagree but I've been there too often to count.

BTW earlier you mentioned a "Boot Sale in  an  adjacent field"? -- is  

this really a sale of footwear or am I missing some English -  

American translation issue? If so, please pardon my Colonial ignorance!

All best, fair winds,

Russ



On Aug 7, 2009, at 6:06 AM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 but in actual flight they reach those angles at certain  

 corresponding airspeeds.>>



 Hi Rick,



 Not true. Your wing in level flight supports a certain weight .  

 Increase that weight and the wing will NOT support it. In other  

 words it stalls. How can you do this? Easy! Alter your flight path  

 markedly, this will increase the `g` force and the plane will in  

 effect weigh more.



 Its all about what a sailor would call `apparent wind` As a yacht  

 increases its speed  the direction the wind is coming from moves  

 towards the bow. This enables a boat to `point higher`,i.e to  

 decrease the angle of attack. It is the same with a planes wing .  

 Go fast and the AOA moves forward, go slowly and the AOA moves  

 back. If you increase the weight of the a/c (pull `g`) the wing  

 will `mush` through the airand the AOA will move backwards  

 `WHATEVER THE AIRSPEED`



 I am sure thats clear as mud but think about it.



 Cheers



 Pat

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

Russ, that means selling from the trunk of the car.  AKA "boot"

BB

don't ask about bees in the bonnet

On 8, Aug 2009, at 9:30 AM, russ kinne wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Pat, Ladd

 Got to take issue with you in re sailboats going  to windward.

 You say when the apparent (relative) wind moves forward, as when   

 boat speed increases, this enables the boat to point higher. It  

 most certainly does NOT -- Just the opposite! You must bear off,  

 point lower, point further from  the direction the wind comes from,  

 to keep sailing, keep the sails full  -- or to keep lift, if in an   

 aircraft. Just substitute angle of relative wind on the boat for  

 AOA on the aircraft. You can delay the luff by trimming in the  

 sails, but relative wind moving forward does not allow you to point  

 up further.

 As you say, think about it. The sails will luff if you keep your  

 course or bear up, you must bear off.

 Sorry to disagree but I've been there too often to count.

 BTW earlier you mentioned a "Boot Sale in  an  adjacent field"? --  

 is this really a sale of footwear or am I missing some English -  

 American translation issue? If so, please pardon my Colonial  

 ignorance!

 All best, fair winds,

 Russ

 On Aug 7, 2009, at 6:06 AM, pj.ladd wrote:

> 

>

> but in actual flight they reach those angles at certain  

> corresponding airspeeds.>>

>

> Hi Rick,

>

> Not true. Your wing in level flight supports a certain weight .  

> Increase that weight and the wing will NOT support it. In other  

> words it stalls. How can you do this? Easy! Alter your flight path  

> markedly, this will increase the `g` force and the plane will in  

> effect weigh more.

>

> Its all about what a sailor would call `apparent wind` As a yacht  

> increases its speed  the direction the wind is coming from moves  

> towards the bow. This enables a boat to `point higher`,i.e to  

> decrease the angle of attack. It is the same with a planes wing .  

> Go fast and the AOA moves forward, go slowly and the AOA moves  

> back. If you increase the weight of the a/c (pull `g`) the wing  

> will `mush` through the airand the AOA will move backwards  

> `WHATEVER THE AIRSPEED`

>

> I am sure thats clear as mud but think about it.

>

> Cheers

>

> Pat

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

interesting statements on full stall landings...I learned to  fly in a J-3 and was taught to have the stick clear back into your belly when  the plane touched the ground and was fully stalled....I still want to try and do  that with my firestar and found it difficult to get a good landing....have often  had the tail wheel hit 1st...have just by experence learned that I seem to get a  lot better landing when I only bring the stick back part way...so you can see  why your discussions on this subject have been interesting to  me.....jswan

  

 do not archive

  

 JIM  SWAN

firestar ll, 503, N663S

Eaton Rapids, Mi. 48827

PH 517-663-8488  runway 2300' E & W (42-28.58N 084-44.69 W  )

 

  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  Nah, it's not lift or anything like that at all. It's gobs and gobs of 

cash...>>



You crazy mixed kid! You have gone all twisted and bitter. Go fly



Cheers



Pat 	




I don't think the wind is going to allow it this eve, but I may take another shot at it in the morning. I get a lot grumpier when I don't get to fly and summer is a terrible time for it. Can't wait till fall/winter...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

 	  Arksey(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  interesting statements on full stall landings...I learned to  fly in a J-3 and was taught to have the stick clear back into your belly when  the plane touched the ground and was fully stalled....

	




This would be different with different aircraft types, depending on landing gear setup and other factors.  Also many times, instructors say things that are not quite true in the interest of simplifying an idea for a student.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

You can delay the luff by trimming in the sails, but

relative wind moving forward does not allow you to point up further.>>



Hi Russ,

 arguing with you about sailing is like arguing with the Hauck about flying 

and I  have more sense than to do either.

Starting from the assumption that you were right I reworked the problem....I 

think my memory of what we did was accurate but the reason we did it was 

not.



As I remebered it, and I haven`t sailed a dinghy for nearly 60 years, it was 

always `harden up in the gusts` but having spent some time today drawing 

diagrams and trying to think myself through the problem I have come to the 

conclusion that hardening up in the gusts was probably to spill some wind to 

avoid a knockdown. I DO remember that when I sailed catamarans we bore away 

from the wind in the gusts because cats accelerated so much faster than 

monohulls they could ride out a strong gust just by going faster.



Sincere apologies all the way round, my analogy was unsound. I still think I 

am right about the rest of my argument.



About `boot` sales. Remember that in the UK the trunk of your car (where you 

put the luggage) is our boot.



Hence a boot sale happens when a farmer makes a field available. He charges 

people who wish to sell goods, from the boot of their car, to park in his 

field and set up shop. Sometimes stuff is laid out on a groundsheet on the 

grass, some bring folding tables. The farmer then charges prospective 

customers to park in the filelds and go shopping.  Most of the stuff is 

rubbish, but one mans rubbish is anothers treasure. Cheap CD`s and DVD`s 

sometimes pirated, some just secondhand copies . Cheap hand tools, garden 

tools, fishing stuff, you name it. It is a very popular way of passing a 

Sunday morning in the UK. Some affairs are gigantic, perhaps on an old 

airfield, sometimes a small affair with the profits going to the local 

church or Boy Scouts. The farmer whose farm I fly from runs a boot sale and 

proceeds go to the local Flying Ambulance Service.

To get back to flying. Just landed from a nice flight of about an hour. 

Didn`t take off until about 7.45 so the wind had dropped and the air was 

smooth. The Bristol Balloon Festival has been going on all week and there 

were dozens of hot air balloons drifting down towards my field, gettting in 

the last flight of the competition. Spectacular flying alongside the balloon 

stream . crazy designs and brilliant colours. Had to watch it a bit as they 

were coming out of the setting sun and were hard to see from slightly above. 

Getting dusk when I landed and everyone else had packed up. Pleasant way to 

end up a weekend of  glorious weather.



Cheers



Pat

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

To John: something you said got my twisted little mind to working: ...

"3-Required the wings be rigged with more angle of attack so we could take off and land in a nearly level attitude, and to prevent the tail from sagging to the extreme when doing slow flight. It also slows the cruise speed because of additional drag of pulling the tailboom through the air sideways. The Sling Shot will really sag in the tail when slowed down because is has a lot less incidence than the MKIII and FS.



john h

mkIII"



Hmmm - so I went out to the hangar and looked at how the bottom of the root rib aligns with the frame that you attach the center section lower fabric to, which is (more or less) aligned with the underside of the wing. Mine has always been misaligned, the rear lines up, the front, not so much. The wing has too great an angle of attack to line up with the front part of the framework, it is about 5/8" too high. And it is built exactly to plans. (At least in this area...)



So I gets to thinking - "What if I were to drill a new hole in each root rib tang about 5/8" lower and drop the angle of incidence of each wing until it lines up with the lower center section? That would take about 2.5-3 degrees of incidence out of the wings, and maybe pick up a bit of cruise speed? Would need to retrim the elevators, reshim the angle of the motor mounts, etc, but might be worth the hassle. Takeoff runs might be a bit different, landings too, but overall... Hmmm..."



Now look what you've done...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:18 am Post subject: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

> So I gets to thinking - "What if I were to drill a new hole in each root 

rib tang about 5/8" lower and drop the angle of incidence of each wing until 

it lines up with the lower center section? That would take about 2.5-3 

degrees of incidence out of the wings, and maybe pick up a bit of cruise 

speed? Would need to retrim the elevators, reshim the angle of the motor 

mounts, etc, but might be worth the hassle. Takeoff runs might be a bit 

different, landings too, but overall... Hmmm..."

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Now look what you've done...



 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)


	




Rev:



I would have taken some incidence out of my wings a long time ago, but it 

would have required too many other changes.  I wasn't willing to make all 

the other changes required for a couple mph.



Gary Haley took some incidence out of his MKIII wings when he rebuilt it a 

couple years ago.  Speed increase was not significant.



Decreasing incidence will also increase dihedral, unless lift struts are 

shortened accordingly.



Will also require changing the 3 point stance of the MKIII, raising the nose 

to increase angle of attack and allow the aircraft to rotate on take off.



Raising the nose will also improve 3 point landing capability.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:27 am Post subject: W & B, cruising, stalling and landing

Richard, if you still have the aluminum legs you may be in for a  

somewhat longer ground roll during takeoff.

I got as far as installing the longer legs but got sidetracked by  

fuel flow/pressure problems and life in general.

A stock MkIII windshield and cabin configuration might not see much  

change.  Mostly because the curvature

of the window allows most of the air to slip around and provide more  

lift at the wing root bottoms.

There would be a slight increase in lift under the nose which would  

reduce down force requirement at the tail.



Your cabin configuration is another matter.  Not much down force on  

your window.



Mine has a wide flat window that slips a lot of air up and over,  

around the engine to the prop.  Very little

is diverted to underside wing lift.  The down force on the nose is  

considerable.  I should benefit from

an incidence more like the Xtra.

One of these days.

BB



On 12, Aug 2009, at 10:58 PM, Richard Pike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 To John: something you said got my twisted little mind to working: ...

 "3-Required the wings be rigged with more angle of attack so we  

 could take off and land in a nearly level attitude, and to prevent  

 the tail from sagging to the extreme when doing slow flight. It  

 also slows the cruise speed because of additional drag of pulling  

 the tailboom through the air sideways. The Sling Shot will really  

 sag in the tail when slowed down because is has a lot less  

 incidence than the MKIII and FS.



 john h

 mkIII"



 Hmmm - so I went out to the hangar and looked at how the bottom of  

 the root rib aligns with the frame that you attach the center  

 section lower fabric to, which is (more or less) aligned with the  

 underside of the wing. Mine has always been misaligned, the rear  

 lines up, the front, not so much. The wing has too great an angle  

 of attack to line up with the front part of the framework, it is  

 about 5/8" too high. And it is built exactly to plans. (At least in  

 this area...)



 So I gets to thinking - "What if I were to drill a new hole in each  

 root rib tang about 5/8" lower and drop the angle of incidence of  

 each wing until it lines up with the lower center section? That  

 would take about 2.5-3 degrees of incidence out of the wings, and  

 maybe pick up a bit of cruise speed? Would need to retrim the  

 elevators, reshim the angle of the motor mounts, etc, but might be  

 worth the hassle. Takeoff runs might be a bit different, landings  

 too, but overall... Hmmm..."



 Now look what you've done...



 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)





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