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IFR KItfox
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

Michel makes an excellent point.   I sometimes wonder why we as humans tend 

to think in absolute terms.  It seems, in most of the discussion, the 

presumption was that the F16 pilot has two choices, i.e. drive exclusively 

or fly exclusively.



I live in a residential airpark and many residencts fly to the SF Bay Area 

to work - airline pilots, silicon valley techies etc.  Do they fly 

exclusively? No.  Occasionally conditions mandate that they leave an hour or 

two earlier and drive, or they may find themselves in a hotel over night. 

Nothing scary in that.



This also brings to mind the time I was heading to "Factory Town" in Idaho. 

I got to Winnemucca, Nevada in heavy rain.  Three of us sat in the Pilots 

Lounge waiting for things to clear up a bit.  Me with my Kitfox, a guy in a 

182 and a guy with a Mooney.  Guess who left first.  There were lots of dirt 

roads on the way North that I was perfectly able to land on.  The other guys 

needed airports.  The Kitfox could drfinitely be a bumpy ride in serious 

IFR, but a Kitfox certainly gives more alternatives if it is prudent to put 

it down. Maybe the F16 guy did his homework better than we are giving him 

credit for.



Lowell



---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

[quote="icubob(at)gmail.com"]jeff, your judgement is very good.

 �bob noffs

 On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:01 PM, n85ae <n85ae> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "n85ae" <n85ae>

 

Mine is IFR, with a full panel, not just pseudo IFR but with Vor, glideslope,

markers, gps, etc. I'm instrument rated, however I don't, and won't fly it

IFR except for punching layers or very simple stuff. 



Jeff

	




I have to agree with Jeff.  Its great safety advantage to have all the IFR stuff in case you need it, but I would not PLAN on flying a Kitfox IFR.   From the original post, it definitely sounded like IFR flying is the plan, not just a backup, but we will never know for sure as Michael says he is not directly communicating with the pilot looking for a Kitfox.



I am building my Kitfox with a Glass panel, it will not be a legal IFR, but it will have better IFR instrumentation than most small GA  " Legal " IFR aircraft out there.  With a good Electronic Horizon, GPS, and Flight Director, you can fly in the weather much more safely, have more situational awareness, and shoot more accurate approaches than most older non glass equipped aircraft that are " Certified IFR "....   Again, not something I ever plan on doing, but weather surprises us at times and it is a great safety advantage to have IFR capability when it does.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

Actually I built mine fully intending to fly it IFR, then when I started flying 

it I realized I had wasted several thousand dollars on stuff that would never

be used.



I didn't build it IFR as a safety thing, I built it IFR because I'm rated, and

had planned to use it. Just that it's a poor IFR platform, is the reason I

now don't fly it IFR.



Jeff

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

My best guess is it all depends to what extent IFR he wants to use the 'Fox.

Night flights probably OK, Climbing over a little mist also probably Ok.

That's all right to get to work but he also has to get home.  Hope his strip

has ILS.



I'd expect any one who makes holes in the sky with an F-16 has his IFR

certification.  But there is a world of difference between the reliability

of a turbine engine and any piston unit that will fit in a 'Fox.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rick(at)5mike3.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:15 am Post subject: IFR KItfox

Jeff,

I think you are right. Your personal minimums are just that... "yours".

I am an IFR pilot and I fly IMC (not in a kitfox).

Even though I will not launch without VFR ceilings or launch if the 

destination froecasts less than 1000', I know many pilots who have no 

problems flying to minimums.

I think no less of these pilots nor judge them as being unsafe.



YMMV...

--Rick Kitfox IV/912



---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

only gonna chime in quick on this one.  I see guys that will go IFR to punch though cloud layers, without filing IFR or using IFR separation.  Do you think yo uare the only one in that cloud doing the same thing?  I just a call from a buddy who has had 2 VERY close almost midairs in the last week.  Both times he stayed below the soup even though he is IFR rated and the turbine otter is IFR equipt.  He was on the radio talking to a guy that was reported to be behind him by several miles that was going to descend through the soup.  He ended up shooting right over the top of my bud and missed him by about 15' when the guy thought he was a couple miles behind him.  There is a reason that Mark has made it 11,000+ hours flying hardcore bush work and has not dinged a plane.  He will not push weather as he knows there are too many other operators out there doing it already and he has no desire to become a 182's hood ornament.



I have done my fair share of scud running, but intensionally going hard IFR in a plane such as ours is a pretty darn good way to get me to hand out a darwin award to your widow.  I have my flame suit on but I will stand behind it.  If we were in that big of a hurry to get someplace, would you really have bought a kitfox (or avid) in the first place?  Too many mountains to fly into around here, and way to many idiots that risk it in the clouds not even thinking that there is someone of equal intelligence doing the same thing.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

At 01:17 PM 8/7/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have done my fair share of scud running, but intensionally going 

hard IFR in a plane such as ours is a pretty darn good way to get me 

to hand out a darwin award to your widow.


	


Really Leonard? What's wrong with doing legal IFR in a properly 

equipped Kitfox with a properly proficient pilot? I'll admit my plane 

wouldn't be the easiest to keep on track, but I know plenty of 

Kitfox's with glass cockpits and 2 axis autopilots that would do just 

fine. One thing in your favor is that you're going so slow that 

you've got lots of time for bookkeeping and decision-making. And any 

excursions from "proper course" are going to be minimal. Of course, 

you're going to exercise all the good judgement consistent with 

weather, icing, communications, and the like.



MOBY CAVEAT: I'm not an IFR pilot.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

ya got me... IF you have auto pilot, it will reduce the workload to a manageable level, however, I still stand by my thoughts on hard IFR.  If done properly, you will probably be OK.  but what about the other yahoos you cant see that are just trying to punch through a layer that you are happy cruising in.  I went through all the IFR training and was ready to take my check ride when I moved to Hawaii and dropped it.  Since returning, I am a little older and alot wiser..  Could I do IFR if I needed to get home, sure, would I EVER intentionally go IFR, not on your life.  Hotel rooms and overnight camping in the plane are more fun than trying pick you corpse off a mountain side.  With the SPOT I can send out an I am OK message so the other half does not send out the S&R looking for me in bad weather and putting their butts on the line as I am happily sitting by a camp fire waiting for weather to clear.



Not saying that it cant be done, but to you really think intentional hard IFR is your best choice?

cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

I have many thousand hours IFR in everything from Piper Aztecs to Kingairs 

to Air Force jets.

 I would not consider going IFR in a Kitfox in our mountains.



Floran Higgins

Helena, Mt.

Speedster

912 ULS

---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: IFR KItfox

At 02:42 PM 8/7/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  but what about the other yahoos you cant see that are just trying to 

punch through a layer that you are happy cruising in.


	


HA. I naively assumed that NOBODY, but NOBODY would be so crazy as to 

fly uncontrolled IFR. I should have known better, but it's got to be 

a sad thing when one of those idiots takes somebody out.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

FlyboyTR

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Mobile, Alabama

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:51 am Post subject: Re: IFR KItfox

Even though my thoughts match many posts on this topic...I thought I would chime in.  Our Vixen is minimal IFR.  About the longest we have spent in the soup was 30 minutes.  No storms...no fronts...nothing that could go bump in the scud.  The autopilot "certainly" helps with the workload.  However...This is not my idea of FUN flying!  It's nice to know the plane is capable of IFR flight...but I would never consider taking off knowing my flight was going to be IFR!  It's nice to have the option...just in case...but I had much rather enjoy a fun flight.



Travis

_________________
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
www.enotam.net (My Flying Info Website)

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