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Calibrating fuel qty gauges
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Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

I have seen all sort of fuel gauges, and I don't know what is best....



But I want to add a note to the discussion that might spur some thinking:



Video cameras have become soooooo cheap that using one to directly image the inside of a tank is becoming a practical solution. 



When I consider "things I would like to know", I often imagine visualizing them. So I can imagine a conical piece of acrylic in the fuel tank with a couple LEDs and a tiny video camera looking down the axis as a practical solution, or a video camera looking at a calibrated stick inside the tank. 



Although you could image these directly on a small display, you could also write some simple imaging software to turn these video images into a displayed number of gallons.



For those interested in the basic subject, search the USPTO patents site (advanced search) and enter search string "ttl/(fuel and level and sensor)"



When the Oakies left Oklahoma and moved to California, 

it raised the I.Q. of both states." --Will Rogers

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

Good Morning Ken,

 That sounds great!

 Reminds me of a device that was common in the thirties and early forties.  There would be a standpipe in the fuel tank that fed fuel above a predetermined  amount via the MAIN position of the fuel valve. When switched to the RESERVE  position, the fuel was taken from the bottom of the tank. 

 I had a PT-22 that was so equipped. When the tank ran dry on MAIN, there  was precisely five gallons (thirty plus minutes of fuel) left that was available  via the RESERVE position.  All takeoffs and landings were to be performed  with the fuel valve selected to the RESERVE position.

 Worked great as long as you remembered to select the RESERVE for T/O &  Ldg.

 The early Volkswagen had a similar setup that made the last gallon or so of  fuel available to the engine. No fuel gauge at all in the VW as I recall..

 Happy Skies,

 Old Bob

  In a message dated 8/15/2009 7:40:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  klehman(at)albedo.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken    <klehman(at)albedo.net>

There are simple ways of achieving some of    these goals in some aircraft. 

I have a two gallon gravity fed vented    header tank which is also a great 

gascolator. A low cost float switch    (from aircraft spruce) triggers a 

large two color flashing LED if it is    not full, which means it gets 

quiet in 20 min. for me unless I switch    tanks or land as appropriate. No 

sloshing effects in a full header tank.    No concerns about air bubbles, 

unuseable fuel, or maneuvering with low    fuel in the main tanks. It has a 

press to test button for no good reason    other than it makes me feel good.

The sight gauges in my wing tanks are    damped with a restriction and 

calibrated in blue on the forward side for    flight and in red on the rear 

side for ground (tail dragger). Certainly    not foolproof but surprisingly 

accurate for confirming fuel remaining    agrees with what I estimate 

should be there. Certainly accurate to within    one gallon in my 24 gallon 

wing tanks although I don't remember looking at    them when in head 

bumping seat belt tugging turbulence. They also verify    how much fuel is 

added to the tanks quite accurately. Even parked on a    slight left to 

right slope, the error in one tank tends to be cancelled    out by the 

error in the other tank. Clear teflon sight gauges are shatter    proof and 

will last forever regardless of what fuel one    uses.

Ken

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 01:14 PM    8/14/2009, you wrote:

> Geek, Nerd, or Ernest,

> I'm    surprised you are willing to accept the poor excuse for fuel 

>    measurement we've had for the past 60 years.  With your skills, I    

> would have expected you to jump on this challenge and solve    it.

> There must be a solution.

   Design    goals for the system I'm working on now include

   in-situ    calibration at intervals equal to 5% of full

   capacity. So    an accuracy on the order of 2% of tank

   capacity seems    achievable. But even if it becomes

   a product on either the    TC or OBAM side of the house,

   I'd still be reluctant to    recommend that anyone plan

   a flight that draws a tank down    to less than 30 minutes

   total fuel aboard.

        Bob . . .

Do Not    Archive

  [quote][b]

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:52 am Post subject: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

Bob;  

   

This “standpipe” reserve system with a dual position valve is also quite common to many motorcycles. Works very well, BUT----, The biggest drawback I’ve found to this as applied to VW’s or bikes or whatever, is that when you stop to refuel after having selected “reserve” is that you MUST remember to return the valve to the “main” position lest the next time you run “low” you’re actually completely dry as you were already on “reserve”. (Ran out of fuel on my Honda 500 Interceptor more than once for just this reason.)  

   

Bob McC  

           

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:06 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Calibrating fuel qty gauges  

  

     

Good Morning Ken,  

    

   

    

That sounds great!  

    

   

    

Reminds me of a device that was common in the thirties and early forties. There would be a standpipe in the fuel tank that fed fuel above a predetermined amount via the MAIN position of the fuel valve. When switched to the RESERVE position, the fuel was taken from the bottom of the tank.   

    

   

    

I had a PT-22 that was so equipped. When the tank ran dry on MAIN, there was precisely five gallons (thirty plus minutes of fuel) left that was available via the RESERVE position.  All takeoffs and landings were to be performed with the fuel valve selected to the RESERVE position.  

    

   

    

Worked great as long as you remembered to select the RESERVE for T/O & Ldg.  

    

   

    

The early Volkswagen had a similar setup that made the last gallon or so of fuel available to the engine. No fuel gauge at all in the VW as I recall..  

    

   

    

Happy Skies,  

    

   

    

Old Bob  

  

  

       [quote][b]

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

Good Morning Bob McC,

  

 No doubt about it!

  

 Every "improvement" adds another point where failure could occur!

  

 The simplest fuel system possible would have one tank, no valves and no  filters.

  

 Lindbergh wanted many small tanks because he had experienced so many fuel  tank leaks.

  

 'Tis a quandary Indeed.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 8/15/2009 10:53:36 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

Bob;   

    

This    â€œstandpipeâ€ reserve system with a dual position valve is also quite common to    many motorcycles. Works very well, BUT----, The biggest drawback Iâ€™ve found to    this as applied to VWâ€™s or bikes or whatever, is that when you stop to refuel    after having selected â€œreserveâ€ is that you MUST remember to return the valve    to the â€œmainâ€ position lest the next time you run â€œlowâ€ youâ€™re actually    completely dry as you were already on â€œreserveâ€. (Ran out of fuel on my Honda    500 Interceptor more than once for just this    reason.)   

    

Bob    McC   

                

   

From:    owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com

Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:06    AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List:    Calibrating fuel qty gauges

   

       

Good Morning    Ken,

      

 

      

That sounds    great!

      

 

      

Reminds me of a    device that was common in the thirties and early forties. There would be a    standpipe in the fuel tank that fed fuel above a predetermined amount via the    MAIN position of the fuel valve. When switched to the RESERVE position, the    fuel was taken from the bottom of the tank.  

      

 

      

I had a PT-22 that    was so equipped. When the tank ran dry on MAIN, there was precisely five gallons (thirty plus    minutes of fuel) left that was available via the RESERVE position.  All    takeoffs and landings were to be performed with the fuel valve selected to the    RESERVE position.

      

 

      

Worked great as long    as you remembered to select the RESERVE for T/O &    Ldg.

      

 

      

The early Volkswagen    had a similar setup that made the last gallon or so of fuel available to the    engine. No fuel gauge at all in the VW as I    recall..

      

 

      

Happy    Skies,

      

 

      

Old    Bob

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

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tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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  [quote][b]

phillip.johnson(at)lmco.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:02 am Post subject: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

Was  Said> 

 The  Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to the AF-3400 EM do not  work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they still fluctuate between full and 8  gallons when the tanks are full and fluctuate wildly when less than full.  Perhaps I've done something wrong in the calibration - I  know most errors  are installation or operator errors - but, I tried to follow the AF-3400  instructions accurately.<end

  

 When  I installed my capacitance senders I seem to remember having to drill a small  hole at the highest point so that the fuel could drain back down the tube as  necessary.  It is possible that you have entrapped fuel in the tube that is  being held there and needs to be released by a small vent.

  

 Regards,

 



  Phillip  Johnson

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

Phillip,

 Thanks for your response.

 Your idea may be correct.  Not having the vent hole would cause a  problem.  As I recall, the Princeton senders did have a small (maybe a #40)  hole drilled in the side to allow flow.  But, I will check photos to see if  that is correct.

 Thanks for the idea.

 Stan Sutterfield

 Do not archive

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  Was    Said> 

The Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to the    AF-3400

EM do not work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they still    fluctuate

between full and 8 gallons when the tanks are full and fluctuate    wildly

when less than full. Perhaps I've done something wrong in    the

calibration - I  know most errors are installation or operator    errors -

but, I tried to follow the AF-3400 instructions    accurately.<end



When I installed my capacitance senders I seem to    remember having to

drill a small hole at the highest point so that the fuel    could drain

back down the tube as necessary.  It is possible that you    have entrapped

fuel in the tube that is being held there and needs to be    released by a

small vent.



Regards,



Phillip  Johnson 	


 

  

 

  [quote][b]

phillip.johnson(at)lmco.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

My sensors are not Princeton but the principle is the  same.  I seem to remember drilling about a 1/16" or 3/32" hole at the top  of the tube.

  

  Phillip  Johnson



  



   From: Speedy11(at)aol.com [mailto:Speedy11(at)aol.com]  

Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:07 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Cc: Johnson, Phillip  (EXP)

Subject: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

 

  Phillip,

 Thanks for your response.

 Your idea may be correct.  Not having the vent hole would cause a  problem.  As I recall, the Princeton senders did have a small (maybe a #40)  hole drilled in the side to allow flow.  But, I will check photos to see if  that is correct.

 Thanks for the idea.

 Stan Sutterfield

 Do not archive

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  Was    Said> 

The Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to the    AF-3400

EM do not work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they still    fluctuate

between full and 8 gallons when the tanks are full and fluctuate    wildly

when less than full. Perhaps I've done something wrong in    the

calibration - I  know most errors are installation or operator    errors -

but, I tried to follow the AF-3400 instructions    accurately.<end



When I installed my capacitance senders I seem to    remember having to

drill a small hole at the highest point so that the fuel    could drain

back down the tube as necessary.  It is possible that you    have entrapped

fuel in the tube that is being held there and needs to be    released by a

small vent.



Regards,



Phillip  Johnson

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

Are you using 100LL or ethanol blend car gas.  

 jerb



 At 05:12 AM 8/19/2009, you wrote:

 [quote] My sensors are not Princeton but the principle is the same.  I seem to remember drilling about a 1/16" or 3/32" hole at the top of the tube.

  

 Phillip Johnson

  



  From: Speedy11(at)aol.com [ mailto:Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)] 

 Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:07 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Cc: Johnson, Phillip (EXP)

 Subject: Re: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

 

 Phillip,

 Thanks for your response.

 Your idea may be correct.  Not having the vent hole would cause a problem.  As I recall, the Princeton senders did have a small (maybe a #40) hole drilled in the side to allow flow.  But, I will check photos to see if that is correct.

 Thanks for the idea.

 Stan Sutterfield

 Do not archive

  

   Was Said> 

  The Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to the AF-3400

  EM do not work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they still fluctuate

  between full and 8 gallons when the tanks are full and fluctuate wildly

  when less than full. Perhaps I've done something wrong in the

  calibration - I  know most errors are installation or operator errors -

  but, I tried to follow the AF-3400 instructions accurately.<end



  When I installed my capacitance senders I seem to remember having to

  drill a small hole at the highest point so that the fuel could drain

  back down the tube as necessary.  It is possible that you have entrapped

  fuel in the tube that is being held there and needs to be released by a

  small vent.



  Regards,



  Phillip Johnson



   



  [b]

phillip.johnson(at)lmco.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:13 am Post subject: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

Mine  is not flying yet.  I was just relating to what I had done and what was in  the instructions.

  

 I  will be using auto fuel though.

  

  Phillip  Johnson

  

 Cozy MK IV Powered by Subaru IO-200

 www.canardzone.com/members/phillipjohnson

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: Calibrating fuel qty gauges

100LL.

 I have an IO-390, Princeton fuel probes, Advanced Flight Systems AF-3400EM  engine monitor.

 Stan Sutterfield

 Do no archive

  	  Quote: 	
		  Are you    using 100LL or ethanol blend car gas.

jerb



At 05:12 AM 8/19/2009,    you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  My sensors are not Princeton but the principle is the    same.  I seem 

to remember drilling about a 1/16" or 3/32" hole at    the top of the tube.



Phillip    Johnson

----------

From: Speedy11(at)aol.com    [mailto:Speedy11(at)aol.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:07    PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Cc: Johnson, Phillip    (EXP)

Subject: Re: Calibrating fuel qty    gauges



Phillip,

Thanks for your response.

Your    idea may be correct.  Not having the vent hole would cause a    

problem.  As I recall, the Princeton senders did have a small    (maybe 

a #40) hole drilled in the side to allow flow.  But, I    will check 

photos to see if that is correct.

Thanks for the    idea.

Stan Sutterfield

Do not archive



Was    Said>

The Princeton Capacitance Sensors I bought and connected to    the AF-3400

EM do not work. I've calibrated them 7 times and they still    fluctuate

between full and 8 gallons when the tanks are full and    fluctuate wildly

when less than full. Perhaps I've done something wrong    in the

calibration - I  know most errors are installation or    operator errors -

but, I tried to follow the AF-3400 instructions    accurately.<end



When I installed my capacitance senders I    seem to remember having to

drill a small hole at the highest point so    that the fuel could drain

back down the tube as necessary.  It is    possible that you have entrapped

fuel in the tube that is being held    there and needs to be released by a

small    vent.



Regards,



Phillip  Johnson 	


 
	


  

 

  [quote][b]

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