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HGRAFF(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

I Promised a follow-up on getting our Mark III classical into the air  for the first time. Well, here is how it went on the second day, a  week later. 

  

  First, we checked the Pitot/static and found badly leaking conditions in  both, under the cabin connection to Pitot/static itself. (a 50MPH setting would  leak off in 2 seconds) The spring clamps weren't good enough, so we added a  safety wire temporary cure. Upon the subsequent flight Stalls changed  from 45 to 42,  which is very close to the reported stall of a Mark III  Classic for sale like ours, at 41 mph.  Cruise increased from 45 to 50 but  is still limited by engine RPM which I couldn't let go past redline. Ground  adjusting the prop is a next task. The Pitot/Static is still located on top of  the nose, about 4 inches high. 

  

 We also raised the right flap by two threads at the rod end, but to no  avail at all of mitigating the strong left roll force, which is most annoying.  Our engine turns clockwise. Trim tab(s) will be needed. The question remains  whether rudder or aileron or both. 

  

 Pitch control sensitivity is still extreme. Yes, you can get used to it,  but is definitely a-typical. I wonder if some other Kolb owners have done things  about it, such like adding reflex (Fletcher) trim tabs, as are employed on   the Grumman Yankee. It puts some feedback into the elevator, so it won't feel  like a helicopter cyclic control.

  

 I flew for almost an hour, and there wasn't anything extraordinarily  different from the first flight, except my pitch control had  acclimated.  Did I feel real comfortable, like I usually do in an  aircraft?  No, not yet! 

  

 BTW, an alternate pilot, intending to high speed taxi down the runway, got  surprised with a takeoff, almost scraped the left wing on the ground then bobbed  up & down the length of  the fortunately very long runway.  

 (He did not want to make another try at it!).

  

 Things to do at this point are:

  

 1 try and test trim tabs.

 2. Ground adjust Prop for more pitch. 

 Maybe I can get better climb/cruise performance. I am limited on both with  staying under redline RPM. 

 3. Use of a hand-held (?!) GPS to check on speeds. 

  

 Herb,  

 Mark IIIc, 246KT

neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Herb 

  

Please check that your elevator, horizontal stabilizer, controls all, are built per the plans. Also verify that you are within CG ranges. "Pitch control sensitivity is still extreme" This is not normal, something is not right. Pitch is light but easily controlled.  

  

Kolb MKIIICs fly a bit nose low causing a high pressure area where it sounds like you have you static source. You would be better off disconnecting the static line from the airspeed indicator till you get a better static source. 

  

I will try again. It would appear that your wings are poorly rigged. Get the adjustable wing attachments from New Kolb and you should be able to fix the "strong left roll" 

  

A Kolb MKIIC built to the plans is a nice flying airplane. It is not by definition stable. It will divert from level flight in pitch and roll but is very easy to control. 

  

Rick Neilsen 

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC 

  



---

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,

Herb,



Where is your horiz. stab. L.E. with respect to the fuselage tube?  Kolb has changed this location several times on the Xtra.  Don't know about the Classic.  I seem to remember John Hauck said once that the pitch felt like "flying on a bubble" and corrected it with a relocation of the L.E. of the stabilizer.



I may be wrong.  John, any comments?

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Herb, Rick Neilsen has some good points that you should follow up on IMHO. The thing that disturbs me about your reports are your group's failure to do the basics. 

For instance, "Cruise increased from 45 to 50 but is still limited by engine RPM which I couldn't let go past redline. Ground adjusting the prop is a next task." indicates you've never done a static run up with the aircraft restrained in order to properly set the prop pitch. Very bad form, you can harm your engine as well as yourself by making this mistake.

 For what it's worth, Stop, take a step back and consider what you guys are doing. Don't start bandaiding problems without figuring out the cause. Get some hands on help from someone familiar with the aircraft. 

 What you perceive as overly sensitive pitch may be just being ham handed. I can speak from experience here, I was all over the sky on my first flight until I calmed down and started flying the airplane as it flies rather than trying to impose myself on it.

 We just lost a member for what appears to be preventable causes and we don't need another statistic.



 

Rick Girard

do not archive



 

On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 2:41 PM,  <neilsenrm(at)comcast.net (neilsenrm(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote] 

Herb 

  

Please check that your elevator, horizontal stabilizer, controls all, are built per the plans. Also verify that you are within CG ranges. "Pitch control sensitivity is still extreme" This is not normal, something is not right. Pitch is light but easily controlled.   

  

Kolb MKIIICs fly a bit nose low causing a high pressure area where it sounds like you have you static source. You would be better off disconnecting the static line from the airspeed indicator till you get a better static source.  

  

I will try again. It would appear that your wings are poorly rigged. Get the adjustable wing attachments from New Kolb and you should be able to fix the "strong left roll" 

  

A Kolb MKIIC built to the plans is a nice flying airplane. It is not by definition stable. It will divert from level flight in pitch and roll but is very easy to control. 

  

Rick Neilsen 

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC 

  



---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

> Where is your horiz. stab. L.E. with respect to the fuselage tube?  Kolb 

has changed this location several times on the Xtra.  Don't know about the 

Classic.  I seem to remember John Hauck said once that the pitch felt like 

"flying on a bubble" and corrected it with a relocation of the L.E. of the 

stabilizer.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I may be wrong.  John, any comments?


	




Hi Rex:



I haven't responded to this one because the last two posts of tests flight 

seem very flakey.



There are an awful lot of little things that can be causing all their 

problems, and I would not know where to start to offer any help.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

My MK111c is not difficult in pitch, to get it to  porpus you would need to put in a lot of control movement before it gave you any  problem. It will peal off to the left if trimmed to fly hands off and you let  the stick go. It is not a sudden or violent move to the left. If you fly solo  from the right seat it will head that way hands off, two up it will stay  straight . If you trim the aircraft for hands off flight and trickle off the  power it will drop the nose in a stall, then when it picks a bit of speed up it  will lift the nose again until it runs out of air speed and the process is  repeated. It will do this with no pilot input,you will of course loose some  altitude ,nothing happens fast ,nothing unprodictable happens. Not to be tried  close to the ground.

 I am not a builder, but do agree with those that  suggest you need to check the CG and rigging.

 These are not difficult machines to fly with the  correct training, in my experiance they do nothing suddenly or  violently  .99% of my flying has been in ultralight aircraft so may be  my expectations are different from those with a GA back ground.

 Regards

 Downunder

 MK111c

 400hrs 

 503

 [quote]   ---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,

The anti trim tabs to fix your pitch instability are one of the worst ideas I have heard in a long time.  A number of people, including myself have told you that a properly rigged and balanced Kolb is very easy to control in pitch.  This point seems to have been totally ignored by you.



I also gave you very good advice on rigging your wings correctly to correct the rolling tendency, and again you have ignored good advice and are talking about more trim tabs to hide the problem instead of correcting it.  



I could give you some good information on Prop pitch, but I think I would be wasting my time given that you have ignored the other advice I took the time to give you.  If you want the advice, let me know and I will take the time to post it, but I wont waste my time giving advice to someone that ignores it.



Given your attitude towards solving your problems, and ignoring the good advice you have gotten here, I think there is a high possibility of you crashing and destroying your airplane, and I just hope you don't take any passengers with you when you do it.  I also hope you have anyone that thinks about flying your Kolb read these two threads first, they should know what they are getting into.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

 	  Quote: 	
		   The anti trim tabs to fix your pitch instability are one of the worst 

 ideas I have heard in a long time.  A number of people, including myself 

 have told you that a properly rigged and balanced Kolb is very easy to 

 control in pitch.  This point seems to have been totally ignored by you.



 I also gave you very good advice on rigging your wings correctly to 

 correct the rolling tendency, and again you have ignored good advice and 

 are talking about more trim tabs to hide the problem instead of correcting 

 it.



 I could give you some good information on Prop pitch, but I think I would 

 be wasting my time given that you have ignored the other advice I took the 

 time to give you.  If you want the advice, let me know and I will take the 

 time to post it, but I wont waste my time giving advice to someone that 

 ignores it.



 Given your attitude towards solving your problems, and ignoring the good 

 advice you have gotten here, I think there is a high possibility of you 

 crashing and destroying your airplane, and I just hope you don't take any 

 passengers with you when you do it.  I also hope you have anyone that 

 thinks about flying your Kolb read these two threads first, they should 

 know what they are getting into.



 Mike


	




 Mike B:



I never give advice on this List.



I am not qualified to give another pilot/builder advice over the internet 

when I am not absolutely familiar with what his problem is, what he is 

trying to do, or if he is really getting the description of the problem, 

etc., to me accurately and I am understanding him accurately.



I just don't do it.  I don't want the responsibility I led someone the wrong 

direction and they got hurt because of advice.



The only thing I feel good about doing is sharing my experience, good and 

bad, then letting folks decide for themselves if they want to do it my way, 

or try something else.  I leave that up to them.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Brother Mike...



Just an advisory...  perhaps you would be well advised to take

Brother Hauck's subtle advice against giving advice...under 

advisement...



..feel free to consider this to be friendly advice...

(just couldn't stand it...)



Unsolicited beauford

My advice is worth what you pay fer it...

FF-076 survivor

Brandon, FL

Do Not Archive



---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:44 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

It will peal off to the left if trimmed to  fly hands off >>

  

 What you need is the Hauck patented trimming  device.

  

 Obtain a short bungee. anchor one end somewhere on  the passenger seat at floor level. Take two turns around the base of the joy  stick and then anchor the free end close to the starting point..

  

 The elastic  should be fairly tight.  Adjustment of the amount of input is obtained by moving the bungee up the stick  for more trim and towards the base for less.

  

 Works everytime. Nothing to go wrong.. Just what  aircraft control should be.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Well there you go Herb. How dare you not take  advice  crammed down your throat.

 Especially when it comes from a guy that just a  couple weeks ago was giving advice 

 on list ethics and honesty.

 Some just hit delete when they see his  babble.

 It's kind of like watching a tv soap opera for a  minute until you realize how crapy it really is.

  

 By the way I'm still learning to land my Xtra.  They are pitch sensitive. Just because most learn

 to fly them well and safely doesn't mean otherwise.  

 I have to learn to keep the nose and speed  up.

 Wait till you try landing in rough air and  crosswind.

  

 Vic 

 Builder more than flyer

 MKIIIX 912

 20 Hrs.

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

I fly both a Challenge and a Mk111c/912 I was on  the Challenger site for a long time and I seen 

 the same thing happen there that is happening here  now..back biting and bickering. It got to the 

 point on the challenger site I just had all that  mail put in the junk box. Now I check it to see those 

 that was still interesting in flying and are  civil in their comments. There is a lot of good information out

 there and lets face  it not ever plane fly's the same even though they are the same model plus the  

 fact that where you live the fly's conditions are  different and we have to adjust to them if we want to fly.

 Flying some what is like men  & women..what works for one may not work for another...we adjust  or

 find the right one fit your  needs..     

  



  From: Vic (vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net) 

 Sent: 2009-08-18 10:25

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: First Flight follow-up, 

 



 Well there you go Herb. How dare you not take  advice  crammed down your throat.

 Especially when it comes from a guy that just a  couple weeks ago was giving advice 

 on list ethics and honesty.

 Some just hit delete when they see his  babble.

 It's kind of like watching a tv soap opera for a  minute until you realize how crapy it really is.

  

 By the way I'm still learning to land my Xtra.  They are pitch sensitive. Just because most learn

 to fly them well and safely doesn't mean otherwise.  

 I have to learn to keep the nose and speed  up.

 Wait till you try landing in rough air and  crosswind.

  

 Vic 

 Builder more than flyer

 MKIIIX 912

 20 Hrs.

 do not archive

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,

 	  vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net wrote: 	
		  Well there you go Herb. How dare you not take  advice  crammed down your throat.

 Especially when it comes from a guy that just a  couple weeks ago was giving advice 

 on list ethics and honesty.

 Some just hit delete when they see his  babble.

 It's kind of like watching a tv soap opera for a  minute until you realize how crapy it really is.

  

	




Vic, you clearly are doing your best to try to insert personal politics and bickering into a important discussion where Herbs safety is at risk.  You are doing your best to distract from the facts and discussion at hand by posting something that has ZERO information on Herbs problem, and does not contribute anything to this thread except your personal agenda.  Shame on you.



Herb has a dangerous condition that he is proposing of hiding through the use of trim tabs instead of fixing.  Herb did not pay attention to the good information he got when told in a nice and gentle way.  Given the second flight report and the really bad " fixes " that Herb is proposing, Herb needed to be told what a dangerous situation he has in a very direct manner.  I don't care if it hurts his feelings or not, Herb needed to hear it for his own good.  I am not trying to become best buddies with Herb or even care if he likes what I say or not, but I did give him the best advice he could possibly get.  Now if Herb goes out and hurts himself, he will have no one but himself to blame as I did everything humanly possible to warn him.  So tell me Vic, since when is properly rigging the wings of your Kolb to fly level and recheck the CG to make sure it is in limits bad advice ?  Do you have anything to add to this thread other than trying to insert personal politics instead of facts into this discussion ?   



I do see some really bad advice here in this thread, which was just given by you.  I know your type, a know nothing that tells others to only listen to people he " Likes ".  Let me get this straight, if Vic likes someone, everything they say should be heeded, and if Vic does not like them, then they are not qualified to talk about technical matters in aviation.  This type of attitude may work in Junior High school, but most people grow out of this " Clique " and " gang " mentality ...   This type of conduct definitely has no place in an aviation forum where people get information that affect their and their passengers safety.    I cant think of a worse attitude to have towards aviation.  Your advice and attitude is a true disservice to this list, a person like you that puts more importance on personal politics than on facts, knowledge, and good information is the LAST type of person I would ever look to for advice or information on airplanes.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Jet Pilot

 If you don't like the taste of your own medicine  don't dispense it.

  

 Vic

   [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Guys, please CUT IT OUT!!

DROP IT!!

do not archive

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

At 02:52 PM 8/16/2009, HGRAFF(at)aol.com wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 We also raised the right flap by two threads at the rod end, but to no avail at all of mitigating the strong left roll force, which is most annoying. Our engine turns clockwise. Trim tab(s) will be needed. The question remains whether rudder or aileron or both. 	


 If you have a "strong" roll force, you should be checking the airplane's rig.  Trim tabs are for light forces.  As to whether you need rudder or aileron trim, it's whatever it takes to make the airplane fly level with the ball (or yaw string) centered.



  	  Quote: 	
		   Pitch control sensitivity is still extreme. Yes, you can get used to it, but is definitely a-typical. 	


 Are you sure your weight and balance is OK?  A tailheavy aircraft will be very pitch sensitive (and dangerous to boot!)



 -Dana

 

 --

  When you were born, you cried and the world  rejoiced...

 Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.

 -- Cherokee saying    [quote][b]

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,

I bought a Firestar II.

I called Travis at Kolb and asked how I should go about learning to fly one.

First idea, come to Kolb and we can teach you in one of ours.

Second idea, Find an instructor with a Challenger II, they fly similar.

I took the second. My instructor told me a lot of GA guys are caught off guard by these little planes and have problems.

After I flew the Challenger I went and flew an Aeronca.

I damn near flew that into the ground, it works different than a Challenger, slower to respond to pitch commands on landing.

The first thing I did to my Firestar was drag the right wingtip down the tarmac and almost ground loop it.

Things are better now.

Good luck, hope things get better, I had to get that piece to adjust my wings.

My plane is not as stable as my instructors Challenger, his plane is not as responsive as mine.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

HGRAFF(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:13 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Wow, I've been away from the computer for a couple of days and find a  regular storm of many outraged responses. Also, as well, intended  helpful ones. 

  

 My, I've been told I have an attitude problem, with  the implications I don't appreciate good advice, fly an out of rig, out of  CG, not built to plans, porpoising monster into an imminent crash.

  

 Guys cool it. The porpoising only lasted 3 - 4 seconds into the first  flight, when I over-controlled, surprised by the sensitivity of the pitch. My  friend, another GA type had the same problem. Maybe it was my problem for  calling this sensitivity "extreme", because I find it at the extreme end of  anything I've flown before, excepting maybe the helicopter I owned. Gosh, I only  asked the "insane" question if anybody had done anything  to reduce this pitch sensitivity.

  

 To put some of the feathers down, let me state the CG is normal, Mr.  FAA went through the various load calculations to check. This is a straight  built classic, without any mods yet. The engine was run in stages for 5 hours,  going through the recommended step ups. When it was time for high RPMs the prop  was set the specified Static RPM. (Yeah, double checked with a separate optical  meter)

  

 In regards to the heavy left wing, where I said "strong" force is required  to overcome it. Well, what is strong, perhaps the same force required to  initiate a bank. I do think one or two trim tabs will cure that. 

  

 I have a question. For all those sweetheart perfectly trimmed Kolbs, how  long will it fly when you remove your hand, or do you still need to switch hands  to set the flaps. Oh yes, how many of you use flaps in a normal landing.  (considering the acute pwr off sink rate already - flames away!)

  

 To be sure, I thank you for and appreciate all your writing efforts.  (I'll confess, I did a few quick deletes)

 Off line I have been in contact with one of yours, a hundreds of hours guy,  that has been most helpful. His opening remarks were something  like "Hi, when I started out, I had very similar experiences" was a  most reassuring msg someone could send to me. 

  

 Haven't had that much time to work on the Kolb, since its airport is 2  hours away, at Columbia Co. Airport in upstate NY, plus weather has been some  fickle. Shall I dare do another follow-up?

  

 Herb

  

 MarK IIIc, 246KT,  1.3 hrs and going.

Arksey(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:42 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

sure Herb do a follow up...you don't sound like a ding bat to  me....but by your lst remarks you made it sound more of problem than it now  sounds to be...jswan

  

 JIM  SWAN

firestar ll, 503, N663S

Eaton Rapids, Mi. 48827

PH 517-663-8488  runway 2300' E & W (42-28.58N 084-44.69 W  )

 

  [quote][b]

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:56 am Post subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,

I would be interested in hearing how things develop.

It seems the responses are often not too friendly, sorry that happens.

Funny how that approach gets your ideas less heard and your behavior more noticed.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

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