Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - First Flight follow-up,

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

First Flight follow-up,
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

etzimm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:18 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

On Aug 23, 2009, at 9:30 AM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have never flown a Kolb that could be flown with rudder alone, more than a very short time.  When they begin to roll, rudder alone will not pick up tyhe wing. Because they lack any significant dihedral, if you lose aileron control, be nice to have a parachute. 	




John,

I can fly  indefinitely  and pick up either wing in a bank with rudder only in my plane. 

I believe it is due to the  Hoerner type  mod I have done to my wing tips.

None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that capability.

Gene Z

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:19 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Gene:Didn't you also  add some additional dihedral to your wings?

  

 I don't have a photo of your Kolb  handy.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

  

  

  

  On Aug 23, 2009, at 9:30 AM, John Hauck wrote:

 [quote]       	  Quote: 	
		  I      have never flown a Kolb that could be flown with rudder alone, more than a      very short time.  When they begin to roll, rudder alone will not pick      up tyhe wing. Because they lack any significant dihedral, if you lose      aileron control, be nice to have a parachute. 	




   



   John,

   



   I can fly  indefinitely  and pick up either wing in a    bank with rudder only in my plane. 

   I believe it is due to the  Hoerner    type  mod I have done to my wing tips.

   



   None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that    capability.

   



   Gene Z

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

find a  regular storm of many outraged  responses. >>

  

 Hi Herb, get used to it. Some of the listers seem  to have very short fuses. I have been accused of everything from having  no  experience to being anti American because I have explained that we do thinks  differently this side of the pond. Not better, just differently.

 But the majority are helpful, have more hours and  miles under their wings than you could shake a stick at, and talk sound  sense.

 Perhaps you gave the wrong impression about how bad  things were with your plane.

 If your plane really wants to roll and takes a lot  of stick to fly level look at your wing root attachments. There is room for a  fair amount of adjustment by arranging the washers. I have mine full up on one  side and full down on the other. If the plane rolls gently just because you are  sitting on one side of the centre line a bungee round the stick to give a little  leverage will suffice.

  Ignore he diatribes, take the advice given,  apply common sense to the suggestions made and you will be fine.

 A couple of years ago I drove my brand new  Mark3Xtra into a barn. Everyone was full of condolences and good wishes at the  time but that doesn`t stop them occassionally reminding me that I was a bloody  idiot . As if I need reminding!

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

etzimm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:10 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

[img]cid:02E8ED0F-A811-48D7-9FDC-76F75B013671(at)gateway.2wire.net[/img]



 [img]cid:3EB73288-70B7-4945-A45E-D3DBF54798A3(at)gateway.2wire.net[/img]

[img]cid:4F732969-C47D-4121-9E30-D495CC569329(at)gateway.2wire.net[/img]

[img]cid:1EF46A83-7A4C-44A2-9319-F04C79A68D92(at)gateway.2wire.net[/img]

[img]cid:C3CA1143-0A72-4678-A093-92F8CFF70F47(at)gateway.2wire.net[/img]



On Aug 24, 2009, at 10:33 AM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Gene:Didn't you also add some additional dihedral to your wings?

 

I don't have a photo of your Kolb handy.

 

john h

mkIII

 

 

 

 

 

 

 On Aug 23, 2009, at 9:30 AM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  I have never flown a Kolb that could be flown with rudder alone, more than a very short time.  When they begin to roll, rudder alone will not pick up tyhe wing. Because they lack any significant dihedral, if you lose aileron control, be nice to have a parachute. 	




John,

I can fly  indefinitely  and pick up either wing in a bank with rudder only in my plane. 

I believe it is due to the  Hoerner type  mod I have done to my wing tips.

None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that capability.

Gene Z

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 	




href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

1.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

87.98 KB

Viewed:

4113 Time(s)

Landing.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

57 KB

Viewed:

4113 Time(s)

Landing_@_Homer's.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

316.44 KB

Viewed:

4113 Time(s)

wing_tip2.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

156.68 KB

Viewed:

4113 Time(s)

wingtip_1.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

66.38 KB

Viewed:

4113 Time(s)

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Looks good.

  

 Glad it works.

  

 Must be those tips.

  

 john h

 mkIII

   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

At 09:38 AM 8/24/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  John,



I can fly  indefinitely  and pick up either wing in a bank with 

rudder only in my plane.

I believe it is due to the  Hoerner type  mod I have done to my wing tips.



None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that 

capability.



Gene Z


	


Yep - I'll bet it's the tips.

0.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

70.45 KB

Viewed:

4109 Time(s)

5_IM002601.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

158.32 KB

Viewed:

4109 Time(s)

4.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

94.53 KB

Viewed:

4109 Time(s)

_________________
Possum

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

From: Eugene Zimmerman

 	  Quote: 	
		  

John,
	




I can fly  indefinitely  and pick up either wing in a bank with rudder only 

in my plane. I believe it is due to the  Hoerner type  mod I have done to 

my wing tips.



None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that 

capability.

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Gene,



Just some thoughts. There a couple of other factors that may help you.  Your 

lateral cg is centered and this puts equal load on each wing.  Also, you 

engine and propeller combination may weigh less than John's so your vertical 

cg is lower.  Both of these factors will promote increased lateral stability 

given equal dihedral.



I have never let go of the stick and tried to fly the FireFly with just 

rudder and throttle.  I have put it on the short list to try.  I do know 

that when I had the 15 inch chord ailerons on the FireFly and flew to my EAA 

Chapter meetings at Painton, I could not level the wings at cruise speed.  I 

just had to wait for the FireFly to right its self, but most of the time I 

kicked a rudder pedal to help lift the low wing.  After changing to nine 

inch ailerons, and adding VG's, all I had to do was apply a little side 

pressure to keep the FireFly from rolling when passing a wing tip through a 

thermal.



FWIW



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

Very nice work both of you.  There may be a bit more vortex induced  

but the stabilizing effect is worth it.

I'll wait until I hit something before I go in there.

BB



On 24, Aug 2009, at 4:03 PM, possums wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   At 09:38 AM 8/24/2009, you wrote:



> John,

>

> I can fly  indefinitely  and pick up either wing in a bank with  

> rudder only in my plane.

> I believe it is due to the  Hoerner type  mod I have done to my  

> wing tips.

>

> None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had  

> that capability.

>

> Gene Z



 Yep - I'll bet it's the tips.



 <0.JPG><5 IM002601.jpg><4.JPG>

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

From: "possums" <possums(at)bellsouth.net>

 > 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Yep - I'll bet it's the tips.

 
	




Damn, they're sprouting up all over.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,

 	  etzimm(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		   wing in a bank with rudder only in my plane. 

I believe it is due to the  Hoerner type  mod I have done to my wing tips.

None of the other kolb planes that I have ever flown, have had that capability.

Gene Z

	




Gene Z,



That is a really great Modification you did to the wingtips !  The stock wingtips are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the design of the plane.  I know John H will take offense to this, but no plane on the planet is designed perfectly from day one, and even the best planes ever produced have been improved over the years.   The Kolb is no different, a good plane, but still can be made a lot better.  Any plane design that is not improved over time is at risk of becoming outdated and ceasing production.   Once I saw the new wingtips Kolb put on the MK III Xtra, I have been thinking about what to do about my old style and inefficient wingtips.  As it is now, the last 1 1/2 foot of each wingtip has no good airfoil and is basically wasted.   The air coming over this non airfoil wing tip for the last 1 1/2 feet cant be doing the aileron response much good either.  I like the Droop tips that Kolb is now putting on the MK III's, but I do not do fiberglass work that well, and I still think I can do just as well with hoerner type wingtips.   

 

I did a lot of research on wingtips and thier effect on airplanes, and decided to put Hoerner wingtips on my MK III Xtra.  I have even gone as far as to buy all the parts needed to do this from Kolb, and have them sitting in my Workshop.   It is just a matter of finishing another plane before I do this project on my Kolb.   Did you change your wingtips on an existing plane, or did you build the plane with them from day one ???  I would really be interested to get your performance numbers and any other differences you notice in flight characteristics. 



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: First Flight follow-up,

I can't say what the Hoerner style wingtips will do for a Kolb wing but can tell you they make a world of difference on a Cherokee 140. Can't tell much difference at high cruise but slow flight lateral control and stability were much improved over the standard Cherokee wingtips.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

etzimm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:08 am Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

On Aug 24, 2009, at 5:29 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Gene,



 Just some thoughts. There a couple of other factors that may help  

 you.  Your

 lateral cg is centered and this puts equal load on each wing.  Also,  

 you

 engine and propeller combination may weigh less than John's so your  

 vertical

 cg is lower.  Both of these factors will promote increased lateral  

 stability

 given equal dihedral.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN


	




Jack,



The position of the cg does have  a significant  effect on roll  

performance.  However on  my plane with the modified hoerner type wing  

tips the cg is significantly lower than on my Mark II. giving it more  

pendulum effect which works to resist rolling.  To roll out of a bank  

angle with rudder only the hoerner type tips must over power this  

greater pendulum stability.



My Firestar with the hoerner modified tips will pick up a wing with  

rudder only.  On my Mark II will not,  But The Mark II does have a  

noticeably quicker aileron roll response, I believe primarily because  

the cg is closer to the center of the wing's  roll axis.

Gene

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: First Flight follow-up,

At 03:06 PM 8/26/2009, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  My Firestar with the hoerner modified tips will pick up a wing with

rudder only.  On my Mark II will not,  But The Mark II does have a

noticeably quicker aileron roll response, I believe primarily because

the cg is closer to the center of the wing's  roll axis.


	


That makes sense.  The slanted underside of he Hoerner tips probably gives 

a little dihedral effect, and it's dihedral (which stock Kolbs have little 

or none of) that's necessary for rudder to induce roll.



-Dana

--

  Lie ? Me ? Never!  No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun!

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum