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Winglts ?
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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:19 am Post subject: Winglts ?

Tim (James) did not report that to be the case.  His testimony will be First Person.  The manufacturer up in Washington also thought differently on "certain models of aircraft" so YMMV.  I am interested in hearing from others on the subject who have walked the walk.  Any Columbia/Cessna 400 drivers out there.  They put the pressure on Mooney and upped the ante for "Fastest Certified SEL".  It may be found that a "Faster" laminar flow airfoil must be the first step to trade those knots you are referencing.  

   

Your position is noted.  

   

Every kit builder should know their mission before beginning the journey.  Getting lost, detoured or discontinuing the course is unfortunate.  See you all at the destination.  

   

John  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen

 Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 5:13 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Winglts ?  

  

   

Unfortunately, VGs benefits come at a cost of reduced cruise speed. Depends on airfoil and max speed range. I would not be surprised to see a loss of 3-5 kts from cruise. Fine if you main mission is back country, not so good if you mainly fly cross country.    

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:    

--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>  

  

Tim James #623 has done a major improvement in both handling and low

 speed flight with his VGs.  Others might query at OSH and post their

 impressions here.

 

 The 10 can provide some great, short, soft, H DenAlt landings and

 unimproved surfaces with a few reasonably simple mods.

 

 For many who never leave the asphalt jungle, I understand.    



 John

 

 --

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: Winglts ?

I added VG’s to my souped up, mint condition Cherokee 140. The VG’s made a 3-4 MPH difference in the stall speed there by really reducing the touchdown speed and ground roll. As far as the top end it is difficult to tell as full power forward was unchanged at a brisk walking pace L  

I doubt Columbia drivers will know as they either have them or they don’t. Those certified guys don’t take hardware on and off like garage builders.  

I vaguely remember that there was minimal top end loss for some of the Cessna (high wing) VG packages but again high speeds are not their forte. When is the last time you saw a 182 fly by? Yawn…  

   

Robin  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox

 Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 8:19 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Winglts ?  

  

  

   

Tim (James) did not report that to be the case.  His testimony will be First Person.  The manufacturer up in Washington also thought differently on "certain models of aircraft" so YMMV.  I am interested in hearing from others on the subject who have walked the walk.  Any Columbia/Cessna 400 drivers out there.  They put the pressure on Mooney and upped the ante for "Fastest Certified SEL".  It may be found that a "Faster" laminar flow airfoil must be the first step to trade those knots you are referencing.  

   

Your position is noted.  

   

Every kit builder should know their mission before beginning the journey.  Getting lost, detoured or discontinuing the course is unfortunate.  See you all at the destination.  

   

John  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen

 Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 5:13 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Winglts ?  

  

   

Unfortunately, VGs benefits come at a cost of reduced cruise speed. Depends on airfoil and max speed range. I would not be surprised to see a loss of 3-5 kts from cruise. Fine if you main mission is back country, not so good if you mainly fly cross country.    

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:    

--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>  

  

Tim James #623 has done a major improvement in both handling and low

 speed flight with his VGs.  Others might query at OSH and post their

 impressions here.

 

 The 10 can provide some great, short, soft, H DenAlt landings and

 unimproved surfaces with a few reasonably simple mods.

 

 For many who never leave the asphalt jungle, I understand.    



 John

 

 --

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

A few brave souls tried them on Mooneys after they were STCd.  I believe 

universally they removed them, as they cost 5 kts on the laminar flow 

wing. Maybe not an issue with the -10, but would be worth some before 

and after testing to know.



Robin Marks wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I added VG’s to my souped up, mint condition Cherokee 140. The VG’s made 

 a 3-4 MPH difference in the stall speed there by really reducing the 

 touchdown speed and ground roll. As far as the top end it is difficult 

 to tell as full power forward was unchanged at a brisk walking pace L

 

 I doubt Columbia drivers will know as they either have them or they 

 don’t. Those certified guys don’t take hardware on and off like garage 

 builders.

 

 I vaguely remember that there was minimal top end loss for some of the 

 Cessna (high wing) VG packages but again high speeds are not their 

 forte. When is the last time you saw a 182 fly by? Yawn…

 

  

 

 Robin


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John Cox


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Tim (James) did not report that to be the case.  His testimony will be 

 First Person.  The manufacturer up in Washington also thought 

 differently on "certain models of aircraft" so YMMV.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

John,will the upgrade you describe fit on the van supplied wheels and  

allow the attachment of my standard fairings ? Can you tell me or send  

pics of such a mod? Where do I get the safer mil spec fluid? Robert  

N661G in hot Arizona leaving back to Texas coast in the am



Sent from my iPhone



Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

520 Lawrence St.

Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

Phone: 361-888-8808

Facsimile: 361-888-6753

robert(at)brunklaw.com



On Jul 16, 2009, at 2:46 PM, "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:



[quote] Robert,



 I am going with 0.375" thick rotors and dual pad calipers per side to

 spread the force.  A couple of RV-x main landing gear caliper fires  

 that

 consumed the glass pant caused a few to change from H-5606 a few years

 back. The flame propagation was right below each main AVGAS fuel tank.

 Fiberglass fires are a perverted thing to watch. So take a test sample

 and learn by experiment not experience how the cured resin and glass

 strands come to life until gone. Mine was watching a '69 Vette being

 prepped for custom paint.



 VANS mantra is stay conservative with the brakes and build your kit  

 bone

 stock.  Some of us tend to lean into the wind - just for the fresh sea

 breeze in the summer. With a Barrett and Forsling Exhaust, the brake

 upgrade was an easy choice.  Ask about VGs for the RV-10 at OSH.



 Mil H-83282 provides another level of combustion protection.  I have

 found that H-5606 tends to coagulate with age. Its low flash point is

 routinely accepted by most builders without consideration of

 alternatives.



 Some will yell "Stay off the brakes and learn Happy Feet".  Then your

 neighborhood A&P will explain how proper engine leaning and a higher

 idle than 700 or 800 will cause the aircraft to move in a forward

 direction requiring those darned toes again.



 Fly Often, Fly Safe, Earn your grey hair over time.  Take a Grandchild

 for a Young Eagles flight.  Stop by Camp Condrey for a beer.



 John



 --

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

For what it's worth, you can also use automatic transmission fluid as  

brake fluid.



I've been using it for 3 years now.



Picked that up from an old A&P, IA.



grumpy

N184JM



do not archive



On Jul 18, 2009, at 5:17 PM, Robert Brunkenhoefer wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 John,will the upgrade you describe fit on the van supplied wheels  

 and allow the attachment of my standard fairings ? Can you tell me  

 or send pics of such a mod? Where do I get the safer mil spec fluid?  

 Robert N661G in hot Arizona leaving back to Texas coast in the am



 Sent from my iPhone



 Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

 Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

 520 Lawrence St.

 Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

 Phone: 361-888-8808

 Facsimile: 361-888-6753

 robert(at)brunklaw.com



 On Jul 16, 2009, at 2:46 PM, "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>  

 wrote:



> Robert,

>

> I am going with 0.375" thick rotors and dual pad calipers per side to

> spread the force.  A couple of RV-x main landing gear caliper fires  

> that

> consumed the glass pant caused a few to change from H-5606 a few  

> years

> back. The flame propagation was right below each main AVGAS fuel  

> tank.

> Fiberglass fires are a perverted thing to watch. So take a test  

> sample

> and learn by experiment not experience how the cured resin and glass

> strands come to life until gone. Mine was watching a '69 Vette being

> prepped for custom paint.

>

> VANS mantra is stay conservative with the brakes and build your kit  

> bone

> stock.  Some of us tend to lean into the wind - just for the fresh  

> sea

> breeze in the summer. With a Barrett and Forsling Exhaust, the brake

> upgrade was an easy choice.  Ask about VGs for the RV-10 at OSH.

>

> Mil H-83282 provides another level of combustion protection.  I have

> found that H-5606 tends to coagulate with age. Its low flash point is

> routinely accepted by most builders without consideration of

> alternatives.

>

> Some will yell "Stay off the brakes and learn Happy Feet".  Then your

> neighborhood A&P will explain how proper engine leaning and a higher

> idle than 700 or 800 will cause the aircraft to move in a forward

> direction requiring those darned toes again.

>

> Fly Often, Fly Safe, Earn your grey hair over time.  Take a  

> Grandchild

> for a Young Eagles flight.  Stop by Camp Condrey for a beer.

>

> John

>

> --

Lenny Iszak

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Winglts ?

Robert,



I got my 83282 brake fluid from SkyGeek:



http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.html



They also sell a 1 gallon can.



I don't know if it's necessary but I also changed the o-rings in the calipers to Viton. Those are part # V1000-224   at http://www.allorings.com

Lenny

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: Winglts ?

A couple years back I made the decision to switch to 83282 because of the increased flash point of the fluid.  Down side is you can only get it a large quantity so you will end up with enough to build 10 aircraft or you can sell it off to your other building mates and come out even.



  Another thing of note it that Vetterman has developed a new exhaust for the James Cowl and Barrett cold air combination that looks to do a better job at balancing the exhaust than his original for $1895.  More info here:



http://www.vettermanexhaust.com/



  It's a fairly straight forward process to have his ceramic coated like the Forsling and you will still come in a few hundred less.



Michael



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: Winglts ?

EAA chapter involvement is a great way to share the investment in safer Mil H-83282.

  



  John Cox



 

  From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Sun 7/19/2009 6:44 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Winglts ?

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>    A couple years back I made the decision to switch to 83282 because of the increased flash point of the fluid.  Down side is you can only get it a large quantity so you will end up with enough to build 10 aircraft or you can sell it off to your other building mates and come out even.    Another thing of note it that Vetterman has developed a new exhaust for the James Cowl and Barrett cold air combination that looks to do a better job at balancing the exhaust than his original for $1895.  More info here:  http://www.vettermanexhaust.com/    It's a fairly straight forward process to have his ceramic coated like the Forsling and you will still come in a few hundred less.  Michael  --

rv(at)thelefflers.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: Winglts ?

AS Lenny posted a few days ago, you can get 83282 in quart cans from

Skygeek.



http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.ht

ml 

--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: Winglts ?

See Lenny's post from skygeek.  Under $9/quart seems

plenty reasonable to me.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:

[quote] 

 <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>

 

 A couple years back I made the decision to switch to 83282 because of

 the increased flash point of the fluid.  Down side is you can only

 get it a large quantity so you will end up with enough to build 10

 aircraft or you can sell it off to your other building mates and come

 out even.

 

 Another thing of note it that Vetterman has developed a new exhaust

 for the James Cowl and Barrett cold air combination that looks to do

 a better job at balancing the exhaust than his original for $1895.

 More info here:

 

 http://www.vettermanexhaust.com/

 

 It's a fairly straight forward process to have his ceramic coated

 like the Forsling and you will still come in a few hundred less.

 

 Michael

 

 --

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:05 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

Ya, but when I got it like 4 years ago I could only find the gallon's.  



Do not archive



--

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Winglets ?

Thanks for the thoughts about winglets.  



Any new information from OSH on this?  Maybe it's like some have said -- the winglets on new models similar to the -10 are just to look cool ... and they do!



Later, - Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

David Shelton

Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 22
Location: C77

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Winglts ?

One of my friends is a leading winglet designer and here is my understanding... If they are carefully optimized in a wind tunnel (airfoils, cant, sweep, twist, etc), they can decrease drag by a very small amount (0.5 to 1.5% on a sailplane). However, without expert design and testing, the winglets will almost certainly increase drag. 



Increasing the wingspan (higher aspect ratio) is a better way to reduce drag. If you have no limitations on your wingspan (hangar space, sailplane class rules, etc.), this is a better way to kill induced drag.



For the RV-10, I believe you would get a lot more bang-for-the-buck with these improvements:



1) Seal your flaps. When retracted, the leading edge of the flap should nest against a foam-rubber seal. This will prevent air from flowing through the gap and creating interference drag.



2) Wingroot fairings. These should start with a very small radius at the leading edge. Beginning at the thickest part of the wing, the radius should gently grow. Some people make them backwards!



VGs can boost your maximum lift (lower stall, shorter take-off) but they generate drag and reduce your high-speed performance. If STOL isn't your primary mission (you probably shouldn't have an RV-10 if it is), then I wouldn't worry about them.



In the case of the Columbia 400, I believe the VGs were used to improve the stall/spin characteristics at high-altitude. Without them, I heard that it gives an abrupt stall with unpredictable wing drop. The VGs took care of this problem but with a corresponding drag penalty.



-David

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: Winglts ?

David,



I agree about the winglets.



But in regard to the RV-10 specifically,  I think a strip of foam in the flap cove might reduce flap effectiveness by disrupting the air through the gap when the flaps are down.  The gap is referred to as a "nozzle", which makes me think that the air going through it is being managed to at least some degree.  Wouldn't a span-wise strip disrupt that flow?  Besides, I think that the upper skin, which should contact the top of the flap, does a pretty good job of sealing off that airflow.  I don't have any hard facts on any of this, just my .02.

  

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

  [quote][b]

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: Winglts ?

Hey David,



Thanks for the input.



Later, - Lew



do not archive

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

David Shelton

Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 22
Location: C77

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Winglts ?

[quote="dave.saylor.aircrafters(a"]David,

 I think a strip of foam in the flap cove might reduce flap effectiveness by disrupting the air through the gap when the flaps are down.ï¿½    	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




Hey Dave,



That's something to consider but I don't think there would be much harm to the air through the gap. The gap geometry is already simplified and I'd expect the flow to be separated already in the vicinity of the foam strip.



It's too bad there isn't a way to seal those frise ailerons because they are a much larger problem by comparison.



-David

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: Winglts ?

David,



You're right, they are pretty well angled by the closeout.  Not exactly a

smooth transition.  But...what if it had a nice smooth transition?  Maybe

the flaps would be more effective.  We just finished cleaning up that area

on another type of plane, haven't flown it yet.  I think there might be room

for improvement on the -10 with a cleaned up fiberglass insert in the cove.



A foam strip in the aileron cove might be the ticket...I was just looking at

it, and it wouldn't be too hard to put some squishy foam under the trailing

edge so it just contacted the aileron.  Or are you *supposed* to have

airflow through there?



On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:01 AM, David Shelton <SBaircraft(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



[quote] 



 [quote="dave.saylor.aircrafters(a"]David,

  I think a strip of foam in the flap cove might reduce flap effectiveness

 by disrupting the air through the gap when the flaps are down.ï¿½

 > [b]

 Hey Dave,



 That's something to consider but I don't think there would be much harm to

 the air through the gap. The gap geometry is already simplified and I'd

 expect the flow to be separated already in the vicinity of the foam strip

lessdragprod(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

The RV series ailerons are slotted ailerons.Â  They need the air flow through the gap between the wing rear spar and aileron.Â  The RVÂ aileron design has been called a "Frise" aileron from the beginning.Â  But they are actually "slotted" ailerons.



Tracy Saylor sealed the gap on one aileron on his RV-6.Â  He found the roll control to be terrible, and immediately removed his aileron gap seal

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