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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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 Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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Some time ago John H suggested a fix for the tail wheel post and brace. It involved a brace from the tail wheel bolt to the collar on the tail boom. I should of paid more attention.
On the morning of Sept first, I was intending to go check the neighbors cows in the Pot Hole field to make sure none of them were bogged in any of the sink holes. Saves them some trouble and time and gives me an excuse to go fly.
As I was doing my preflight I noticed that the tail wheel assembly was wobbling. Sure enough the aluminum tube at the end of the steel collar was broken and the tail post was broken where it was connected to the collar on the tube.
I have 500.6 hours on the plane and most of it was on dirt, not grass, Dirt! Here it is soft and the worst side loads on the tail wheel are right in front of the hanger.
I now have it repaired, and this time I applied the side braces that John recommended. If you have not already done so, I would suggest that you make it a priority, because it is a pain to repair, but really easy to prevent.
[img]cid:3686A0B5207B43C6958AC4FC4B7907FE(at)larryPC[/img]
I sleeved the tube and welded the tail post. Of course the problem is the fabric repair.
[img]cid:77B6A3E065AA4FA49A345BFFEA492AB3(at)larryPC[/img]
These two little braces are easy to make and install, the repair is a pain in the butt.
Larry
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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:51 am Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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Larry- Did you make the tubes out of steel, or aluminum?
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks, Ct.
FS 447
[quote][b]
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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Larry,
I also had this failure.First the aluminum tube at the end of the steel tail post.Noticed the frayed fabric first during preflight because I fold and unfold every flight.So I replaced the tube (.032) with (.054) I think.But I continued to use differential braking to swing the FS around in front of the trailer,which puts a lot of side load on the tail post structure.Then the lower short tube from the tailpost failed at the ring.You know what that entails.I thought all of this was self induced by the way I was turning and loading the tailpost,so I spent the money and put a full swiveling tail wheel assy.on it.I never heard about the braces until John mentioned them one day.Then I saw the light.You can make the braces out of fairly light stuff because they are both in tension.The only other mod I made was the clamp on the tail spring at the steel tube to keep the rod from twisting against the bolt and letting the wheel flop over center.Also prevents fish mouthing of the steel tube so it does'nt get loose enough to rattle.
G.Aman MK-3C 475 hrs with Johns braces
--
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:25 am Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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Larry, is that aluminum or steel tube?BB
On 3, Sep 2009, at 11:56 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
| Quote: | Some time ago John H suggested a fix for the tail wheel post and brace. It involved a brace from the tail wheel bolt to the collar on the tail boom. I should of paid more attention.
On the morning of Sept first, I was intending to go check the neighbors cows in the Pot Hole field to make sure none of them were bogged in any of the sink holes. Saves them some trouble and time and gives me an excuse to go fly.
As I was doing my preflight I noticed that the tail wheel assembly was wobbling. Sure enough the aluminum tube at the end of the steel collar was broken and the tail post was broken where it was connected to the collar on the tube.
I have 500.6 hours on the plane and most of it was on dirt, not grass, Dirt! Here it is soft and the worst side loads on the tail wheel are right in front of the hanger.
I now have it repaired, and this time I applied the side braces that John recommended. If you have not already done so, I would suggest that you make it a priority, because it is a pain to repair, but really easy to prevent.
<3686A0B5207B43C6958AC4FC4B7907FE>
I sleeved the tube and welded the tail post. Of course the problem is the fabric repair.
<77B6A3E065AA4FA49A345BFFEA492AB3>
These two little braces are easy to make and install, the repair is a pain in the butt.
Larry
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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[quote] ---
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Tail wheel support and brace |
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Larry
That is an excellent and easy mod to do. I was going to weld the braces on mine, but given what I see in your pictures, your mod looks jut as strong and does not have any of the drawbacks of having to weld. I will make that a priority and do it soon. Given this number of reports of breakages in this place, it is something I check on EVERY preflight.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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Given this number of reports of breakages in this place, it is something I
check on EVERY preflight.
Mike B/Gang:
You gotta fly'em and put a lot of hours on them to break them.
A lot of the little things I have done to my Kolbs, over the years, has been
because I flew a lot (notice past tense) and wore stuff out or caused stuff
to require frequent adjustment.
BTW: There is nothing wrong with the Kolb design, all models. Some of us
fly a lot more than others. Some of us fly in tougher conditions than
others. Larry C, for one, puts lots of hours on his bird in a harsh
environment.
I was never an advocate of the SS multi-hole wire tangs.
What I have now works great for me. I have adjusted tail wire tension once
in well over 1,000 flight hours. Prior to that, I twisted cables, used
washers, and made up a lot of new tail wires for my birds.
I might add, cabled thimbles were never designed to be used in conjunction
with a 1/16" think cable tang. Would work much better if one used a clevis
pinned and safetied with the thimble inserted into the clevis. A lot more
surface area for the thimble to wear against. I have worn thimbles
completely through and into the cable eye before I caught it.
Remember, I share with you what I do, good or bad (the mistakes I have made
along the way), but I am not here to grade any List member on their
performance. It is up to the individual to choose what he/she wants to do.
A couple hundred hours flying and breaking Kolbs does not make anyone an
expert. One must get out there and experience the airplane first.
john h
mkIII - Rawlings, Wyoming (7200 feet msl and still on the ground.)
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Tail wheel support and brace |
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| John Hauck wrote: |
I was never an advocate of the SS multi-hole wire tangs.
What I have now works great for me. I have adjusted tail wire tension once
in well over 1,000 flight hours. Prior to that, I twisted cables, used
washers, and made up a lot of new tail wires for my birds.
john h
mkIII - Rawlings, Wyoming (7200 feet msl and still on the ground.) |
Hi John H,
You made good time going out west, did not expect you to be that far already. As far as your tail wires, I knew you did something better than most of us, but I don't remember what. I'm not a huge fan of the multi hole SS tangs especially after the AD, but am at a loss of what else to use. I bought some Stainless Steel single hole tangs from Aircraft Spruce, but they were extremely thin, and I could bend them with my fingers, they felt much weaker than my Multi hole tangs, so I did not use them. What type of tangs did you use on your MK III, and were can we get them ? I would be as happy as could be to get 1000 hours out of my next set, did you use Stainless Steel Cables also ?
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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As far as your tail wires, I knew you did something better than most of
us, but I don't remember what. I'm not a huge fan of the multi hole SS
tangs especially after the AD, but am at a loss of what else to use. I
bought some Stainless Steel single hole tangs from Aircraft Spruce, but they
were extremely thin, and I could bend them with my fingers, they felt much
weaker than my Multi hole tangs, so I did not use them. What type of tangs
did you use on your MK III, and were can we get them ? I would be as happy
as could be to get 1000 hours out of my next set, did you use Stainless
Steel Cables also ?
Mike B/Gang:
I think Scott has some photos of my tail wires. I don't have any with me.
I just wrote a post describing my set up when this thread got started
several days ago.
I made up tangs from 4130 strap. I don't remember the dimensions. Used
cable ferules that look like little pulley wheels instead of thimbles. 4
turnbuckles located top and bottom of each horizontal stab.
I do not fold my airplane.
I like my cables tight. The way I check for proper tension is grab the
upper vertical stab leading edge near the top and the leading edge of a
horizontal stab near the outboard end while standing in front of the tail
section. I try to pull these to parts together. If I get any cable slack
while going through this exercise, my cables are too loose. When I "twang"
my cable I want it to sound like a guitar string.
If cables are loose, the Kolb will not fly correctly. That goes for tail
wires and elevator cables. Elevator cables can be checked by having someone
hold the elevators in place while you try to move the control stick forward
and aft. If there is fore and aft play the elevator cables are too loose.
During flight the tail wires are constantly loosening. Tail wires exert
inward force on the horizontal stablizers. The aluminum hinges are acting
as thrust washers wearing away the sides of the hinge tangs where they rub
against each other. To help reduce wear in this area I made some small
nylon thrust blocks which I placed between the inboard rear edge of each
horizontal stabalizer and the tailboom. These blocks help carry the inward
force of the tail wires. These blocks also prevent folding the elevators
up.
john h
mkIII - Drinking coffee in Rock Springs, Wyoming. A normal fuel stop when
flying from Oregon to Alabama.
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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> To help reduce wear in this area I made some small
| Quote: | nylon thrust blocks which I placed between the inboard rear edge of each
horizontal stabalizer and the tailboom. These blocks help carry the inward
force of the tail wires. These blocks also prevent folding the elevators
up.
john h
mkIII - Drinking coffee in Rock Springs C Wyoming. A normal fuel stop when
flying from Oregon to Alabama.
|
Mornin' John C
Regarding your nylon thrust blocks C if I understand their placement correctly C wouldn't the
hor. stab. slide fore and aft against them?
As we have discussed the hor. stab movement before C it moves fore and aft with the elevator travel (about 1/8" to 3/16" C at maximum elevator up and down).
Is this a lubricated thrust block?
Soon C I hope C I will will be back to work on my plane C and I should not have to fold the wings C either. (more about this soon).
Mike Welch
MkIII
Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. Find out more. [quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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Mike W/Gang:
If the elevator hinge pin is not centered on the center of the pivot point of the elevator control mechanism, the horizontal stabilizer on that side will have some fore and aft movement. The further the hinge pin is off center, the more movement in the horizontal stabilizer.
My right horizontal stabilizer does not move, but the left moves about an 1/8th inch.
Nylon blocks are somewhat self lubricating.
john h
mkIII
Rock Springs, WY
[quote] Regarding your nylon thrust blocks, if I understand their placement correctly, wouldn't the
hor. stab. slide fore and aft against them?
As we have discussed the hor. stab movement before, it moves fore and aft with the elevator travel (about 1/8" to 3/16", at maximum elevator up and down).
Is this a lubricated thrust block?
Soon, I hope, I will will be back to work on my plane, and I should not have to fold the wings, either. (more about this soon).
Mike Welch
MkIII
[b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:55 am Post subject: Tail wheel support and brace |
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John C
On my MkIII C C I would estimate my hor. stabilizers move fore and aft at least 1/8" C possibly 3/16". While I do not think this is excessive C it is clear there are minor fabrication differences between your elevator hinge and mine.
One thing C for sure C is I will experience wear on the front sliding attach bolt C at the leading mount of the hor. stab. I will have plenty on hand C and replace as needed!! This location would also be a good candidate for a shot of grease (just a tiny daub).
Due to movement differences of my tailfeathers C compared to your's C I'm probably precluded from doing the same reinforcement as you did C although I certainly see their value.
Mike Welch
MkIII
From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Tail wheel support and brace
Date: Sat C 5 Sep 2009 07:27:24 -0600
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10pt;} Mike W/Gang:
If the elevator hinge pin is not centered on the center of the pivot point of the elevator control mechanism C the horizontal stabilizer on that side will have some fore and aft movement. The further the hinge pin is off center C the more movement in the horizontal stabilizer.
My right horizontal stabilizer does not move C but the left moves about an 1/8th inch.
Nylon blocks are somewhat self lubricating.
john h
mkIII
Rock Springs C WY
| Quote: | Regarding your nylon thrust blocks C if I understand their placement correctly C wouldn't the
hor. stab. slide fore and aft against them?
As we have discussed the hor. stab movement before C it moves fore and aft with the elevator travel (about 1/8" to 3/16" C at maximum elevator up and down).
Is this a lubricated thrust block?
Soon C I hope C I will will be back to work on my plane C and I should not have to fold the wings C either. (more about this soon).
Mike Welch
MkIII
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icrashrc
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:10 am Post subject: Re: Tail wheel support and brace |
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The pictures i posted before are in this thread. I'll check and see if i have any others if someone needs them.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=54500&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=8d080f528cbeb98081c2dd0a62a4ef9f
Scott
[/quote]
Mike B/Gang:
I think Scott has some photos of my tail wires. I don't have any with me.
I just wrote a post describing my set up when this thread got started
several days ago.
I made up tangs from 4130 strap. I don't remember the dimensions. Used
cable ferules that look like little pulley wheels instead of thimbles. 4
turnbuckles located top and bottom of each horizontal stab.
I do not fold my airplane.
I like my cables tight. The way I check for proper tension is grab the
upper vertical stab leading edge near the top and the leading edge of a
horizontal stab near the outboard end while standing in front of the tail
section. I try to pull these to parts together. If I get any cable slack
while going through this exercise, my cables are too loose. When I "twang"
my cable I want it to sound like a guitar string.
If cables are loose, the Kolb will not fly correctly. That goes for tail
wires and elevator cables. Elevator cables can be checked by having someone
hold the elevators in place while you try to move the control stick forward
and aft. If there is fore and aft play the elevator cables are too loose.
During flight the tail wires are constantly loosening. Tail wires exert
inward force on the horizontal stablizers. The aluminum hinges are acting
as thrust washers wearing away the sides of the hinge tangs where they rub
against each other. To help reduce wear in this area I made some small
nylon thrust blocks which I placed between the inboard rear edge of each
horizontal stabalizer and the tailboom. These blocks help carry the inward
force of the tail wires. These blocks also prevent folding the elevators
up.
john h
mkIII - Drinking coffee in Rock Springs, Wyoming. A normal fuel stop when
flying from Oregon to Alabama.[/quote]
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