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Tail shaking

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jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: Tail shaking

Hi All,

  I was talking Offlist with a few fellow  Kolbers about the tail wire tension, (and the Kolblist tension), and a question  was posed to me about how much tailshaking is normal, so, if you guys don`t  mind, how about looking over your shoulder the next time you fly & report  back on this topic please?

 With all the talk about the wire attach tangs  lately, What We`re specifically looking for is  several things.:

 How much , if any, is the leading edges of the  horizontal & vertical stabilizers  vibrating in flight? And, If they  are any worse or better at any power settings & or airspeeds?

  For instance, does power matter? or Airspeed  in a descent with no power? I will chime in too, but later.

 I`m posting this because there are a SEVERAL of  Kolb Owner newbies that have been in touch with me & are reluctant to post  to the list, because of all of the negative comments that have been thrown by a  certain member of this list, & didn't want to stir up more crap. (Sad,  Huh?)

  The owners are MK-3C & MK-3X pilots, but  I`m sure we all may learn.

 Of course, we will all have to understand that the  tail wires are as tight as the owners are comfortable flying with, or they  wouldn't` fly.

  I know this topics was touched on earlier,  `cuz an archive search yielded John H`s response, but we`d like an up to date  comment.

 Thanks in advance

 Jim Kmet

 Cookeville, TN

 912 MK-3C

  

   [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject: Tail shaking

Jim,  my tail wires have never been very tight.  They are more so now than originally but not "twangy"I have never noticed any problems with vibration or rudder flutter.  The cable thimbles are starting to show

a little wear and will have to be checked closely before next season.

I'm still a little shy about picking up too much speed in a long power off dive because of the aileron flutter I once had.

(pre-balancers)  and pay close attention to what's going on.  Seems good now.

BB

MkIIIc



On 4, Sep 2009, at 5:14 PM, Jim Kmet wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi All,

 I was talking Offlist with a few fellow Kolbers about the tail wire tension, (and the Kolblist tension), and a question was posed to me about how much tailshaking is normal, so, if you guys don`t mind, how about looking over your shoulder the next time you fly & report back on this topic please?

With all the talk about the wire attach tangs lately, What We`re specifically looking for is several things.:

How much , if any, is the leading edges of the horizontal & vertical stabilizers  vibrating in flight? And, If they are any worse or better at any power settings & or airspeeds?

 For instance, does power matter? or Airspeed in a descent with no power? I will chime in too, but later.

I`m posting this because there are a SEVERAL of Kolb Owner newbies that have been in touch with me & are reluctant to post to the list, because of all of the negative comments that have been thrown by a certain member of this list, & didn't want to stir up more crap. (Sad, Huh?)

 The owners are MK-3C & MK-3X pilots, but I`m sure we all may learn.

Of course, we will all have to understand that the tail wires are as tight as the owners are comfortable flying with, or they wouldn't` fly.

 I know this topics was touched on earlier, `cuz an archive search yielded John H`s response, but we`d like an up to date comment.

Thanks in advance

Jim Kmet

Cookeville, TN

912 MK-3C

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 [quote][b]

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Tail shaking

I don't tighten my wires THAT much.... they're tight ... but a dull twang



 My tail is steady....  I know I had a bad wiggle/shimmy ( still do)



 But I found out it's those cheap outa round tires I got ( Chin?)



 I hit my brakes after take-off and it solves it....  Once these wear



a little more... I'll buy better tires...  I like the ones I bought for



my other plane... Same wheel size , but taller ( Still 6 X 6.00 )



          .

Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN

New Kolb Forum -  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kolbaircraft/

.

.

.

h20maule(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: Tail shaking

Jim C the first time I noticed mine it scared me so bad and called my friend Jack. He said it was normal C so I kept going. Is yours shaking? or swaying?

  From: slyck(at)frontiernet.net

Subject: Re: Tail shaking

Date: Fri C 4 Sep 2009 21:40:04 -0400

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Jim C  my tail wires have never been very tight.  They are more so now than originally but not "twangy" I have never noticed any problems with vibration or rudder flutter.  The cable thimbles are starting to show

 a little wear and will have to be checked closely before next season.

 I'm still a little shy about picking up too much speed in a long power off dive because of the aileron flutter I once had.

 (pre-balancers)  and pay close attention to what's going on.  Seems good now.

 BB

 MkIIIc

  On 4 C Sep 2009 C at 5:14 PM C Jim Kmet wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Hi All C

  I was talking Offlist with a few fellow Kolbers about the tail wire tension C (and the Kolblist tension) C and a question was posed to me about how much tailshaking is normal C so C if you guys don`t mind C how about looking over your shoulder the next time you fly & report back on this topic please?

 With all the talk about the wire attach tangs lately C What We`re specifically looking for is several things.:

 How much  C if any C is the leading edges of the horizontal & vertical stabilizers  vibrating in flight? And C If they are any worse or better at any power settings & or airspeeds?

  For instance C does power matter? or Airspeed in a descent with no power? I will chime in too C but later.

 I`m posting this because there are a SEVERAL of Kolb Owner newbies that have been in touch with me & are reluctant to post to the list C because of all of the negative comments that have been thrown by a certain member of this list C & didn't want to stir up more crap. (Sad C Huh?)

  The owners are MK-3C & MK-3X pilots C but I`m sure we all may learn.

 Of course C we will all have to understand that the tail wires are as tight as the owners are comfortable flying with C or they wouldn't` fly.

  I know this topics was touched on earlier C `cuz an archive search yielded John H`s response C but we`d like an up to date comment.

 Thanks in advance

 Jim Kmet

 Cookeville C TN

 912 MK-3C

 	  Quote: 	

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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ronics.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution

Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. Find out more.  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Tail shaking

 	  jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  



I`m posting this because there are a SEVERAL of  Kolb Owner newbies that have been in touch with me & are reluctant to post  to the list, because of all of the negative comments that have been thrown by a  certain member of this list, & didn't want to stir up more crap. (Sad,  Huh?)

 

 Jim Kmet

 Cookeville, TN

 912 MK-3C

  

	




Its obvious from your comment that you just cant let your bitterness go or even respect what Matt asked of us, and end this.   Here, instead of just post your question, you just had to take the opportunity to try to post a negative comment even after everything had pretty much blown over. You were so desperate to throw out some negative comments and insults that you resorted to doing it in a new thread.  You are nothing but a hypocrite that is saying how sad it is to have crap stirred up, when you take every opportunity to stir it up yourself.   I am tired of bitter and vindictive and bitter hypocrites like yourself blaming me for your bad behavior.   



As far as newbies on the list, I have been talking to a lot of them myself and many are afraid to post because of the likes of yourself and your little gang that try to intimidate and silence the opinions of those on this list you don't like.   What is really sad is that even after Matt Dralle asked nicely, you are so bitter you have to try to start shit again in a new thread.   No is one responsible for you trying to stir up shit and hard feelings on the list but yourself.  Your nasty and negative comments in this thread were unsolicited and uncalled for.  People must be getting tired of this crap, I am sure you will not get much support for starting it up again.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:15 pm Post subject: Tail shaking

I have the same out of ballance tyres . Jab on the brakes fixes the problem. 

Also have one that slowly goes down. A real pain taking the spats off to 

pump up, about every 6 months.



TonyDownuder

MK111c

---

jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:10 am Post subject: Tail shaking

I never mentioned a name, why did you  did you take it personal?



Jim Kmet

---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: Re: Tail shaking

 	  jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  I never mentioned a name, why did you  did you take it personal?



Jim Kmet

--- 	




It is very obvious who this post was directed at, given you and your recent posts in other threads directed at myself.   You authored a post and included negative comments that were uncalled for and designed stir up trouble again.  Are you now trying to lie to everyone on this list ?  Are you saying that posting negative and provocative crap is OK if you don't say a name ?  Pretty sad people like you are giving the Kolb list a bad name.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: Tail shaking

Got a suggestion.  My suggestion does not have anything to do with this 

thread or the subject line.  Neither does the personal messages that have 

overwhelmed the Kolb List in the past few days.



If it ain't related to building and flying Kolbs, take it back copy.  The 

majority of this List are not interested in a few of you acting like kids.



Take time to pull up Matt Dralles commandments on how to conduct yourself on 

this List.



Don't let someone else control your feelings.  Every time you react, you are 

being controlled.



Quit grading others and try to learn something or share some information 

about building and flying Kolbs.



john h

mkIII - Back to vacation mode.

Rock Springs, WY

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: Tail shaking

Daniel, BB,  & all, , here`s my experience with  the Tail shaking:

  Mine is comfortably solid, except the leading edges  of both horizontal stabs.They do vibrate. I twist around to see when they are  doing it the worst. Full power climb out , they are fine. low power , slow  flying, they are fine.

 Seem to me they are the worst when I`m trying to  cover ground, 5000 rpm & higher, in level flight, BUT, they will do it also,  when I`m in a relatively high, (like cruise speed), descent with idle power.  That makes me think it is more of a result of turbulent air coming around the  cockpit, than of the thrust from the prop.

 Yea, the whole rear end of the plane will shake a little too., but so does  the 182 I fly. When the Piper Tomahawk came out, that big visible tail scared  alot of people when they saw it shaking.

 I do have a plan to try, but will take some time to do & I`ll report  back on that later, after I see results. In the mean time, I`d like to hear more  from pilots after they twist around in the coming weeks, & report  back.

  

 Jim Kmet

 912-MK3C

 Cookeville, TN

 [quote]   ---

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Tail shaking

[quote="jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net"]Hi All,

  I was talking Offlist with a few fellow  Kolbers about the tail wire tension, (and the Kolblist tension), and a question  was posed to me about how much tailshaking is normal,

<snip>

 Jim Kmet

 Cookeville, TN

 912 MK-3C

  

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




Jim, haven't had a chance to check mine recently, checked it years ago, and it did do some wiggling and shaking.

Back in the days when I was flying a Hummer, which had a 5" boom tube like the FS, when you turned around and looked at the tail, it didn't look good, that thing wiggled and twitched around in the prop blast something fierce. Maxair Drifter was about the same way. But it never seemed to bother it. IMO, a certain amount of twitching and wiggling is normal.



How about this: adjust your wires a tad looser than normal, tie the tail wheel to something secure and run the engine up full throttle and watch it for a while. Then tighten the wires up snug and try it again. Which ever you like the most, make that your normal.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: Tail shaking

Guys,

   I like them tight too.But if you fold and unfold you have some difficulty getting that little wing nut started if the tension is too high.Had to compromise on it some.The tangs on my MK-3 were all bent well past the holes, so far so good 470hrs and I lube the area where the tangs and thimble touch.Saw some red"smoke "there and thought lubing was in order

  G.Aman

 

   

 

   

 

 --

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: Tail shaking

In a message dated 9/4/2009 9:56:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com writes:

   	  Quote: 	
		     But I found out it's those cheap outa round tires I got (    Chin?)



I hit my brakes after take-off and it solves it....     

    

   Mike & Jazz,

    

   I had the same problem with cheap made ying yang chin tires.  I also    did the 'hit the brakes thing' to stop rotation and vibration after    take-off.  But then one day I got over excited and hit the brakes while    still on the ground.  Since I only have those go-kart drum brakes, there    was no danger of nosing over, but it did get my attention.  I have since    used some home made lead weights to balance the wheel/tire assembly.     Used double sided tape to attach to inner part of wheel rim.  Tried to    use auto weights but they wouldn't fit the wheel barrow rims.     

   Bill    Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not    Archive



	


 

  [quote][b]

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Tail shaking

Hello all....I took another video out the back with the doors and windows off and this is what I got.  The video is not the best ,but it doesn't seem that bad...looks worse on the ground that in the air...   

Anyway...for what it's worth....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU-Hr6HigcQ

chris ambrose

M3X/Jab   60+hrs

N327CS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: Tail shaking

I took another video out the back with the doors and windows off and this 

is what I got.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 chris ambrose


	




Chris A/Gang:



The 6" tail boom is a very flexible tube.



Most of the prop blast is hitting the side of the tail section.



Prop blast knocks it one way and relative wind is pushing it back.



Amazing how stable the tail section is considering the environment it lives.



john h

mkIII

West Yellowstone, Montana - Forecasting 29F tonight with rain and snow.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:52 am Post subject: Tail shaking

West Yellowstone, Montana - Forecasting 29F tonight with rain and snow. >>



Hi John,



Dont envy you the weather but I certainly do the country. Up there about 5 

years ago. Superb



Cheers



Pat

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Tail shaking

 	  ces308 wrote: 	
		  Hello all....I took another video out the back with the doors and windows off and this is what I got.  The video is not the best ,but it doesn't seem that bad...looks worse on the ground that in the air...   

Anyway...for what it's worth....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU-Hr6HigcQ

chris ambrose

M3X/Jab   60+hrs

N327CS 	




Based on your video, the tail is going to get way more abuse on the ground taxiing than in the air. I am adding a "Hauck tailwheel brace" to mine and not worrying about it.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Tail shaking

The problem with loose tail wires is the the stainless thimbles will wear a "notch" into it over time. This happened on my Original Firestar with the wingnut used to tighten it at the bottom of the rudder post. After replacing with new wires, I decided to use a lock nut and wrench to get it tighter. The old wires shook while flying as I could see them well. After tightening with the new ones, the tail still shakes, but not as much. The kit used a wingnut because Homer wanted to keep the setup simple without the use of tools. The wingnut just didn't get it tight enough.



The Kolbra uses turnbuckles to tighten and they are reasonably tight with no tail shake with the 6" fuse tube (Firestar uses a 5" fuse tube).



Ralph B

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_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: Tail shaking

At 04:56 PM 9/5/2009, Jim Kmet wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Yea, the whole rear end of the plane will shake a little too., 	


 I've never noticed it in the air, but the tail of my UltraStar shakes alarmingly on the ground when I do a preflight runup.



 -Dana

 

 --

  The most important and least understood aspect of life in America is stupidity.

  -- F.Zappa    [quote][b]

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