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Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

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Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

More and more I get this inquiry: "I want to use your Wig-wag with HDI lamps. Duckworth says they need to warm up for ten minutes and then they wig-wag fine. 



I reply:



Yes, I have been looking at the problem. I even have a set here to measure. But...

 

In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon short-arc, HDI, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in detail what is needed to wig-wag them. 

 

So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HDI lamps because they will have short lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HDI lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (let's say) 2500 restarts per hour. Many problems with HDIs don't occur in any simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to contend with. Furthermore, switched mode power supplies and starters are particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion.

 

If the HDI lamp sellers insist that their lamps can be wig-wagged, I would love to see the 100 hour data. 

 

Until then, I cannot recommend using the Perihelion Design wig-wags for HDI lamps. Maybe other manufacturers have a different opinion.

 

Any thoughts?

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

Go old school and use a mechanical solution..  How about a rotating mirror

(or lens) like in the old bubblegum lamps on a cop car?  Can cause the

wig-wagging effect, and not just straight ahead - off to the side too. 

The mirror could have a position where it's completely out of the path of

the beam allowing "steady burning" behavior, and full output - no

attenuation from the reflection.

Matt-



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <emjones(at)charter.net>



 More and more I get this inquiry: "I want to use your Wig-wag with HDI

 lamps. Duckworth says they need to warm up for ten minutes and then they

 wig-wag fine.



 I reply:



 Yes, I have been looking at the problem. I even have a set here to

 measure. But...



 In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon

 short-arc, HDI, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with

 both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in

 detail what is needed to wig-wag them.



 So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HDI lamps

 because they will have short lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an

 advantage of HDI lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (let's

 say) 2500 restarts per hour. Many problems with HDIs don't occur in any

 simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to

 contend with. Furthermore, switched mode power supplies and starters are

 particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the

 manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to

 be used in this fashion.



 If the HDI lamp sellers insist that their lamps can be wig-wagged, I would

 love to see the 100 hour data.



 Until then, I cannot recommend using the Perihelion Design wig-wags for

 HDI lamps. Maybe other manufacturers have a different opinion.



 Any thoughts?



 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 (508) 764-2072

 emjones(at)charter.net





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 63038#263038

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

Oh yeah..  And bring on the LED's..  I don't think they particularly

suffer from cycling, as long as the peak current is kept under control.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Go old school and use a mechanical solution..  How about a rotating mirror

 (or lens) like in the old bubblegum lamps on a cop car?  Can cause the

 wig-wagging effect, and not just straight ahead - off to the side too.

 The mirror could have a position where it's completely out of the path of

 the beam allowing "steady burning" behavior, and full output - no

 attenuation from the reflection.

 Matt-



> 

> <emjones(at)charter.net>

>

> More and more I get this inquiry: "I want to use your Wig-wag with HDI

> lamps. Duckworth says they need to warm up for ten minutes and then they

> wig-wag fine.

>

> I reply:

>

> Yes, I have been looking at the problem. I even have a set here to

> measure. But...

>

> In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power

> xenon

> short-arc, HDI, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with

> both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in

> detail what is needed to wig-wag them.

>

> So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HDI lamps

> because they will have short lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an

> advantage of HDI lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (let's

> say) 2500 restarts per hour. Many problems with HDIs don't occur in any

> simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to

> contend with. Furthermore, switched mode power supplies and starters are

> particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the

> manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to

> be used in this fashion.

>

> If the HDI lamp sellers insist that their lamps can be wig-wagged, I

> would

> love to see the 100 hour data.

>

> Until then, I cannot recommend using the Perihelion Design wig-wags for

> HDI lamps. Maybe other manufacturers have a different opinion.

>

> Any thoughts?

>

> --------

> Eric M. Jones

> www.PerihelionDesign.com

> 113 Brentwood Drive

> Southbridge, MA 01550

> (508) 764-2072

> emjones(at)charter.net

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 63038#263038

>

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

Eric;



LoPresti Speed Merchants market their "Boom Beam" lights as HID technology.

They claim that this product http://loprestiaviation.com/PowerPulse.htm can

be used in conjunction with them without damaging the HID system, and is in

fact STC approved. The shortfalls you are citing, they claim to be urban

myth. Not taking sides here, but there are obviously two opinions on the

subject of wig-wag HID lights. Assuming of course that my supposition is

correct that LoPresti lights are in fact HID in the same sense that you are

describing. i.e. apples to apples comparison. Modern automotive HID's

certainly don't need the 10 minute warm-up mentioned below by Duckworth to

be switched on and off repeatedly. Don't know however what damage this may

be causing. Your supposition of shortening the life may well be true.



Bob McC



[quote] --

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

dan(at)familybrown.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:41 am Post subject: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

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Bob McCallum wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   LoPresti Speed Merchants market their "Boom Beam" lights as HID technology.

 They claim that this product http://loprestiaviation.com/PowerPulse.htm can

 be used in conjunction with them without damaging the HID system, and is in


	


XeVision also has a pulsing system for their HID lights.  It apparently

does shorten the lamp life, as their warranty is reduced from 5000 hours

without the pulsing to 3000 hours with it.



- --

Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan(at)familybrown.org

"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the

more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."

 -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille

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Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:22 pm Post subject: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

Interesting Dan, that seems to support Eric, and yet LoPresti says their

5000 hour warranty is not affected. Go figure. Each to his own, I guess, and

so the differing opinions each survive. Eric's arguments make sense, yet two

manufacturers actually producing the product can't agree with each other.



Bob McC



[quote] --

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

 	  Quote: 	
		  



their warranty is reduced from 5000 hours 

without the pulsing to 3000 hours with it. 	


So if I fly 300 hrs a year and use the lights with a wig wag 10% of the time and it really shortens the life of the lights by 2000 hours then.... 



I will have to replace the lights after 100 years as opposed to replacing them after 166 years. is that correct?

_________________
Milt

Last edited by n395v on Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

Sounds like you've pretty much pegged it Milt.

  

 Bob McC

 do not archive

 

[quote] Subject: Re: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

 From: Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com

 Date: Wed C 16 Sep 2009 05:45:33 -0700

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>

 

 

 > their warranty is reduced from 5000 hours 

 > without the pulsing to 3000 hours with it. 

 > 

 

 

 So if I fly 300 hrs a year and use the lights with a wig wag 10% of the time and it really shortens the life of the lights by 2000 hours then....

 

 I will have to replace the lights after 100 years as opposed to replacing them after 166 years. is that correct?

 

 --------

 Milt

 2003 F1 Rocket

 2006 Radial Rocket

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263290#263290

 

 

 



 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

XeVision

Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 26
Location: Ogden, Utah

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

[quote="Bob McC"]Interesting Dan, that seems to support Eric, and yet LoPresti says their

5000 hour warranty is not affected. Go figure. Each to his own, I guess, and

so the differing opinions each survive. Eric's arguments make sense, yet two

manufacturers actually producing the product can't agree with each other.



Bob McC  	  Quote: 	
		   -- 	




The new pulsing Lopresti PowerPulse is the same unit made by http://seatoneng.com/ or http://www.maxpulsemaxdim.com/comparisons.htm is a pretty cool compact form factor, I have to admit, I would use it for Incandescent or Halogen lamps. It is a GREAT product.



However, its built in warm up is NOT suitable for HID IF you are concerned about ballast and bulb life. Its bulb warm up is not sufficient for HID because the warm up time is much too short (~5 seconds) and most of the pulsing speeds are too slow to be OK for HID bulbs. 

XeVision was the first (4+ years ago) to offer Pulsing specifically designed for the requirements of HID, after much discussion with the HID bulb manufacturers about bulb operating requirements for long life (ARC plasma behavior and electrodes). We make our own ballasts but these quality HID bulbs are ONLY made by Philips or Osram (Sylvania).

The unit Lopresti is offering has only a 5 second warm up, OK for incandescent or LED (not needed), but NOT good for HID. 

HID requires the bulb arc plasma reach steady state or very close to it before pulsing should start if one cares about HID system life. Anything less than 20 seconds of continuous warm up time is too short and will significantly affect HID bulb life. Slow pulsing is also harmful, 60 ppm (1 Hz) per channel (120 ppm both channels "wig-wag") is the approximate optimal speed considering both bulb life and visual effectiveness for HID. Short warm up and / or slow pulsing allows the plasma to cool off too much in pulsing operation, requiring very much higher starting voltages to restrike the ARC, thus accelerating erosion of the electrodes.

Once the HID bulb is warmed up, 20-30 seconds (sufficient) or more, if pulsing is fast enough, the on pulse is long enough and the off period short enough the plasma can stay hot enough to again sustain a low voltage arc (~85 VAC) as it does in steady state without resorting to a high voltage restrike 25+ KV for each pulse.



The Lopresti unit offers 44 ppm (22 ppm each channel) and 88 ppm (44 ppm each channel), these are for both channels combined. Only the 120 ppm their fastest rate (60 ppm each channel) is suitable for HID.



Note: XeVision has a Patent Pending regarding warm-up technology for HID (filed over 4 years ago). The Patent office has granted our Patent about 1 month ago and the final paperwork has been submitted for issuance from the US Patent office. The original XePulse I and the about to be released XePulse II are covered by this Patent. The XePulse II is about 20% of the size of the original unit and the new unit includes additional patentable enhancements to insure maximum HID system life while in pulsing operation.

Philips and Osram (the only quality D1S) bulb makers in the world. both claim a Tc of either 2500 or 3000 hours. This bulb statistic means that only 63% of the bulbs will still function (on/off) after that amount of run time in the lab. Lopresti has used and still uses these 2 brands of D1S HID bulbs and yet still claims a 5000 hour or 5 year warranty ???? This must be a hobbs meter based warranty, not a true usage based warranty. Since most users will not use their HID lights as a large % of total flight time this does not cause them to provide many free replacement bulbs. And very few users will fly more than a couple of hundred hours per year.

Without a proper arc chamber warm up Philips and Osram claim the bulb is only good for about 20,000 starts. That is only 6 hours of continuous pulsing if it is not in the plasma (steady state) instead of excited Xenon only as during the initial starting. Depending on how someone operates their pulsing system, pulsing while "cold" the warmup to steady state can be extended to over 5 minutes which wears the electrodes at an accelerated rate. Once the arc gap gets large enough and 105-110 VAC (max steady state bulb voltage) cannot sustain the arc the bulbs life has ended. When a bulb is new it takes about 85 VAC and 0.4 amp (35 watt) (0.6 amp for 50 watts) to sustain the arc once warmed up. When the bulb is cold it takes more power to keep the arc going. During this early phase of bulb operation it can take 2X to 3X the power to the bulb to keep it "lit". This extended overpowering to 70-90 watts is hard on the bulb this is the bulb operation phase to be avoided for HID pulsing. Hot restriking after less than a second of cool down (more than 30 seconds) it takes as much as 25,000 Volts to restart.



Every other company (6) which offers a pulsing system indicates 30 seconds to 1 minute steady on before pulsing should start (flip the switch) for HID.



The HID bulb manufacturers all agree that a close to steady state power to the arc is mandatory for good bulb life and the higher the pulsing frequency the better (that works well visibly). Hot restarting takes much more power if the bulb is allowed to cool for more than 1/2 second. If pulsing only occurs while the plasma state is well established (after 20-30 secs) then the power required to re establish the arc is almost the same as to keep it "lit". Its all about the impedance within the arc and under what conditions is it easiest on the bulb and ballast to re establish the arc. Its all about adequately warming the arc chamber up and keeping the off time between pulses short and the on time of the pulses long.



I guess its their engineers (facts) "opinions" (Philips and Osram) vs Lopresti sales team opinions. I think I'll stick with them, after all they are the bulb experts.



The power being put into the bulb/ballast system can easily be monitored with an amp probe on the cable to the bulb on an oscilloscope to see how the power varies between operating the bulb these 2 different ways, "cold /cool" pulsing or "hot" (warmed up) "steady state" pulsing.



One of Lopresti's people told me that their HID warm up was "instantaneous" Those guys are miracle workers and can defy the laws of Physics.

_________________
LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance).

Last edited by XeVision on Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

rgf(at)dcn.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

 	  Quote: 	
		  LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. 

This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance).


	


Yes, but I wonder, how do the LEDs do as a recognition light, compared to a

landing light?

XeVision

Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 26
Location: Ogden, Utah

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps

 	  rgf(at)dcn.org wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. 

This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance).



	


Yes, but I wonder, how do the LEDs do as a recognition light, compared to a

landing light? 	




They do great at night, not nearly so good in the daytime. LED's do not reach out very far.

_________________
LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance).

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