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Vortex Generators
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: Vortex Generators

Gary, I'm interested in VG in two areas, stall speed reduction and prop inflow. I will carefully document each as I go changing only one thing at a time. Right now my stall speeds are 37 clean, 35 half flaps, 32 full flaps. That's just me in the airplane at a weight of right around 800 lb. If it ever stops storming so I can fly again, I'll redo all the tests again to make sure of the numbers at that weight then load it up to full gross so I can run the tests for that and close out phase 1 testing, again, so I can go fly about. 



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:26 PM,  <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote]   Rick, Tender subject I know,but I have the Landshorter VGs on my MK-3,but never had them on the Firestar,and granted they are two different airplanes,BUT,solo the MK stalls in the 20's and the FS2 at 36 and the break is gentle in the MK when it quits.BUT they were on it when I got it.The guy I bought it from had a 2" thick file on VG's and had really investigated before he bought and installed them.I'm interested to see your results -before and after.

           G.Aman

 

 

 

   

 

   

 

 --

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:55 am Post subject: Vortex Generators

Rick C

  

   I get the impression from a previous post that you plan on making your own VGs.  (I have to admit C it took me awhile to cypher the Agent Orange reference.  Home Depot C no doubt?  Hadn't heard that one.)

  

   Will you be able to document this comparison with photos C etc.  Knowing your attention to detail C I'm sure you'll create some kind of spreadsheet of your results.

  

   I think this report will be very useful.  Finally C we may get a true "before and after" test.  I believe this is especially important C because if I'm not mistaken C in the past C you were never a big fan of VGs.  

  

   To refresh everyone's memory C what was your past position on VGs?  Was it like John H's C that he seemed to make no judgement on them C except that they just weren't for him?  Or C did you take the position that the VG's actual value was in question?  In other words C were you a skeptic regarding VGs making a difference to helping a Kolb's performance?

  

   Without a doubt C many on this list anxiously await your final results!!

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII Cyrano  (a little inside humor)

 

  Date: Fri C 11 Sep 2009 23:09:10 -0500

Subject: Re: Re: Vortex Generators

From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



Gary C I'm interested in VG in two areas C stall speed reduction and prop inflow. I will carefully document each as I go changing only one thing at a time. Right now my stall speeds are 37 clean C 35 half flaps C 32 full flaps. That's just me in the airplane at a weight of right around 800 lb. If it ever stops storming so I can fly again C I'll redo all the tests again to make sure of the numbers at that weight then load it up to full gross so I can run the tests for that and close out phase 1 testing C again C so I can go fly about. 



 Rick Girard

 do not archive



 On Fri C Sep 11 C 2009 at 8:26 PM C <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 [quote] Rick C Tender subject I know Cbut I have the Landshorter VGs on my MK-3 Cbut never had them on the Firestar Cand granted they are two different airplanes CBUT Csolo the MK stalls in the 20's and the FS2 at 36 and the break is gentle in the MK when it quits.BUT they were on it when I got it.The guy I bought it from had a 2" thick file on VG's and had really investigated before he bought and installed them.I'm interested to see your results -before and after.

         G.Aman



  



 



--

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:22 am Post subject: Vortex Generators

Mike, Vortex generators are a tool to fix an aerodynamic problem, nothing more. I am no more a fan or detractor than I am of crescent wrenches. My main interest is in prop inflow because the Mk III DOES have a problem there, but I'm willing to try them on the wing because all the discussion has piqued my curiosity. 



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 6:55 AM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]     Rick,

  

   I get the impression from a previous post that you plan on making your own VGs.  (I have to admit, it took me awhile to cypher the Agent Orange reference.  Home Depot, no doubt?  Hadn't heard that one.)

  

   Will you be able to document this comparison with photos, etc.  Knowing your attention to detail, I'm sure you'll create some kind of spreadsheet of your results.

  

   I think this report will be very useful.  Finally, we may get a true "before and after" test.  I believe this is especially important, because if I'm not mistaken, in the past, you were never a big fan of VGs.  

   

   To refresh everyone's memory, what was your past position on VGs?  Was it like John H's, that he seemed to make no judgement on them, except that they just weren't for him?  Or, did you take the position that the VG's actual value was in question?  In other words, were you a skeptic regarding VGs making a difference to helping a Kolb's performance?

   

   Without a doubt, many on this list anxiously await your final results!!

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII Cyrano  (a little inside humor)

 

  Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 23:09:10 -0500

Subject: Re: Re: Vortex Generators

From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

 

Gary, I'm interested in VG in two areas, stall speed reduction and prop inflow. I will carefully document each as I go changing only one thing at a time. Right now my stall speeds are 37 clean, 35 half flaps, 32 full flaps. That's just me in the airplane at a weight of right around 800 lb. If it ever stops storming so I can fly again, I'll redo all the tests again to make sure of the numbers at that weight then load it up to full gross so I can run the tests for that and close out phase 1 testing, again, so I can go fly about. 



 Rick Girard

 do not archive



 On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:26 PM, <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 [quote] Rick, Tender subject I know,but I have the Landshorter VGs on my MK-3,but never had them on the Firestar,and granted they are two different airplanes,BUT,solo the MK stalls in the 20's and the FS2 at 36 and the break is gentle in the MK when it quits.BUT they were on it when I got it.The guy I bought it from had a 2" thick file on VG's and had really investigated before he bought and installed them.I'm interested to see your results -before and after.

          G.Aman



  



 



--

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		   	  Richard Pike wrote: 	
		  



Recently looked at Beauford's Firefly and his VG setup, consequently will be going to the little plastic triangular store bought VG's when we rebuild the FSII as he has found them to work better than the homemade ones.



Hope this helps -

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) 	




I have been posting the above information about VG's here on the list for the last 3 years, telling people that they were critical in design and placement, and to just spend the 100 dollars on ones that are designed properly and will perform best,  you just now figured this out ???



Mike 	




Yes. I have been off the list for over a year, there's a lot I have missed. Besides, talking one on one to Beauford carries a lot of credibility with me, and based on what he said, I have changed my mind. Even old dogs sometimes learn new tricks.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: Vortex Generators

you just now figured this out ???



 	  Quote: 	
		   Mike


	




Yes. I have been off the list for over a year, there's a lot I have missed. 

Besides, talking one on one to Beauford carries a lot of credibility with me, and 

based on what he said, I have changed my mind. Even old dogs sometimes learn new 

tricks.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



------------------------



....WOOF...!



beauford

FF-076

Do not archive

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: Vortex Generators

Some of us old dogs just have fleas.  D'ya think if I change the  

sheets on the bed this year it would cut down on the little red spots  

I've been getting?



A recent flight of some duration, that is using more than one jug,  

left my lungs tasting like sump vapors for a couple days.

One reason is I have been drawing more power from the puny suzuki  

with the tweaking over time.  More power, more vapors.

(Egad, Myrtle has the vapors!)



I figure they are migrating back up the boom tube from the tail.  I  

tried first to block the front with semi-rigid foam.

-Too unwieldy.  I quit in drunken disgust.

Today I stuck in some 2" thick soft, squishy stuff, cut in two with  

slits for the cables.   Installed at the front since

I figure pressure would keep them there.  Gave it a test ride after.   

I didn't expect a 15 minute ride to confirm anything fume-wise

but the foam is staying there ok.



We will see.  (seafoam?)



Maybe VGs someday.

BB



On 12, Sep 2009, at 9:02 PM, Beauford T wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <beauford173(at)verizon.net>



   you just now figured this out ???



> Mike

 Yes. I have been off the list for over a year, there's a lot I have  

 missed.

 Besides, talking one on one to Beauford carries a lot of  

 credibility with me, and

 based on what he said, I have changed my mind. Even old dogs  

 sometimes learn new

 tricks.



 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



 ------------------------



 .....WOOF...!



 beauford

 FF-076

 Do not archive

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:12 am Post subject: Vortex Generators

Robert,

 With the full enclosure on the MK-3 the air came back up the tube like someones back there with a leaf blower.I made a plug out of 4" thick foam rubber about a inch larger than the tube dia.,made some slits for the cables and inserted it at the rear of the tube just ahead of the elevator control.No more fumes.

    G.Aman MK3-C Jabiru 2200A

 

   

 

   

 

 --

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:37 am Post subject: Vortex Generators

Gary, the aft end probably makes more sense than where I plugged it.  -for one you reduce access for critters to climb in.For two, the gear leg sockets being welded onto the front ring makes it complicated to use that location.

BB



On 13, Sep 2009, at 7:11 AM, zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote] Robert,

 With the full enclosure on the MK-3 the air came back up the tube like someones back there with a leaf blower.I made a plug out of 4" thick foam rubber about a inch larger than the tube dia.,made some slits for the cables and inserted it at the rear of the tube just ahead of the elevator control.No more fumes.

    G.Aman MK3-C Jabiru 2200A

 

  

 

  

 

 --

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: Vortex Generators

Robert,

  I think I used a 7" round paint can for a pattern on the foam then cut it on a band saw.My first two attempts were less productive.

 G.Aman

 

   

 

   

 

 --

Watkinsdw

Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 138
Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

Greetings, Folks,

For what it is worth, here is our experience with Harrison Designs VGâ€™s (Landshorter.com).

Keep in mind that while Jeff and I are licensed pilots, weâ€™re new to the Kolb world, and as non-builders, still ascending the technical learning curve.



Joa Harrison recommends that the VGâ€™s be set in a line in the upper side of the wing back about 10% of the chord from the leading edge. For us, this meant striking a chalk line at 6.5â€ from the leading edge. We used a carpenterâ€™s square set against the bottom surface of the wing, and measured from the leading edge back 6.5â€ to where the tape met the curve of the wing. We set the front of the VGâ€™s on this line. We put 50 on each wing, as recommended. Using the paper templates that come with the kit, we made our own set using thin Formica, since itâ€™s inevitable that you get the glue on the template, and paper would last about a minute.



We centered each opposing pair of VGâ€™s between two ribs at the angle prescribed by the template. The VGâ€™s should each be 15 degrees off the airflow over the wing (30 degrees between each pair). They recommend that the spacing be 1% of the wingspan. We spaced the outside front corners of each pair 2.75â€ apart. We used the Loctite 401 adhesive that comes in the kit. Hereâ€™s an interesting point. The bottle came about 2/3 full. I assumed weâ€™d lost a little in shipping, and indeed there seemed to be a little residue inside the plastic bag. I was worried that it would not be enough for the job, especially since we bought an extra set of VGâ€™s for our horizontal stabilizer. I ordered an extra bottle, but never had to crack the seal. We didnâ€™t finish the first bottle. 



The recommendation for the horizontal stabilizer is of course, to install them on the underside, just forward of the elevator hinge. I canâ€™t remember how many we used, probably about 30 per side. Theyâ€™re much closer together, about 1.5 inches as opposed to the spacing on the wing.  The kit provides templates for various spacing choices and we made a Formica replica for that, too.

Our 912ULS-powered Mk IIIC has a two-blade, 72â€ IVO prop.



At 1050lbs, we used to stall at 38kts IAS, no flaps.

Now at the same weight, we stall at about 32kts w/ no flaps. 

One notch of flaps decreases it to 25kts. 

Departure stalls were impossible, (no surprise) as we ran out of elevator at 35 kts. at 5400rpms, and the Kolb kept climbing.  



These speeds are all IAS, so at higher angles of attack, we certainly are getting an increase in error. We didnâ€™t confirm with GPS. However, despite the instrument error, the comparison is favorable. 



The stall characteristics are gentle, with a tendency to lower the left wing. Iâ€™m not sure if that reflects design tendency or my heavy left foot. 



Slow flight (MCA) is comfortable with 38kts. At 3800rpm, w/ good control in shallow bank turns.



Hope that helps to add data to the discussion pool, 

Dave and Jeff



PS. I tried to attach several pics of our installation, but the file size is too big in JPEG. If anyone can advise me on how to shrink them, I'll try again.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

Dave and Jeff,



Did you happen to document the top speed in straight and level flight before and after the VG installation? I'd like to know if the lowered stall speed with your installation also results in more drag at higher speeds and thus reducing top speed.



I use an Apple iMac so if you are using a Windows PC then I can't help you directly but I'm sure others on the list can and will help you reduce the file size. If not, send them to me off-list and I'll reduce them for you and post them as well as return the smaller files to you.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Watkinsdw

Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 138
Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

Hi, Thom,

Our top speed before the VG's was 80kts.

I haven't checked for sure, but I don't believe there is a significant reduction to this since installation. Sorry, I should have checked that, but I will next time we're up. Lately, we've been flying for "best economy," which for us means about 55 to 60 kts at about 4600rpm. Our fuel burn is about 3.75/hr at that setting. 



The literature in the instructions claims there isn't a significant increase in drag, (Harrison,)"what happens is that the VG's reduce the thickness of the boundary layer at the aft portion of the wing, which in turn offsets the drag penalty and nets basically zero drag. Most users are noting that when the VG's are properly placed they see no difference in cruise speed."



Highly recommended in the ad..

Dave



PS. PC user

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

Dave Watkins sent me his VG installed photos for me to reduce. I have attached the reduced size files herein.

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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

The question of whether VGs will reduce stall speed has been answered over and over in the affirmative. The less discussed question is whether there is a drag penalty at higher speeds. Following are links to two tests done on a Bonanza (same Bonanza for both tests), one for VGs and stall speed and the other VGs and cruise speeds.



http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/vortex/Vgs_stall_wide_screen.pdf



http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/vortex/Vgs_cruise_wide_screen.pdf



Just because these tests were done on a Bonanza and not a Kolb does not mean that the principles do not also apply to Kolbs. The magnitude of the effects may be different but it is very unlikely (in my opinion) that there is no higher speed cost/penalty when VGs are installed.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: Vortex Generators

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED  

 

  

Richard Girard wrote:  <<  I'm interested in VG in two areas, ... Right now my stall speeds are 37 clean, 35 half flaps, 32 full flaps. >>  

   

Kolb Friends –  

   

I am (finally) going to install VGs on my Mark-III.  I have the set of 100 little polycarbonate VGs from LandShorter, which I bought 2 years ago, and I figured it’s time to finally give ‘em a try!  As long as my Kolb is down this month for its annual, I am also planning to clean up the airflow around the people-pod by covering the upper half of the aft cabin sides with thin (1/16”) Lexan panels.  

   

The stall performance on my M3 Classic exactly matches Rick’s numbers, above.  So I’m really looking forward to see what happens after I install the VGs.  I’ll be installing them using double-stick carpet tape, to allow me to easily remove them if I wish.  No super glue.  

   

Will provide a full flight-report when I take “Magic Bike” for its next flight …  

   

   

Dennis Kirby  

912ul, N93DK in  

Cedar Crest, NM  

do not archive  

      

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED   

 

  [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

I went to the airport today and installed my VGs made of flashing aluminum. I taped them on to the wings only, using black electrical tape over the center section between the vanes, 6.5 " aft of leading edge to the peak (aft part) of the VGs. That turns out to be 8.5" measured along the curvature of the upper camber. I used 23 pair (I use the term pair because they are double vaned with an included angle of 30 degrees) on each of my short wings (span is 22') spaced evenly one pair in the valley between each rib and false rib, for a total of 46 pair. My ribs and false ribs are spaced on 4" centers so my VGs are spaced 4" on centers. I stopped just outside of the prop circle so there are none from the fuselage centerline outwards for about 3' on each wing.



I made these many years ago  for my early FS and later removed them. I had them installed much further back on the FS and it decreased the stall speed a good bit but at that location on my FS the stall became a little too abrupt for my tastes. The design was copied from someone's design posted on this list more than once.



It was too windy to fly today to get reliable speeds so I can't yet report the results, but will at the first opportunity. I don't know if any SS flyer has ever installed VGs on an SS so this should be interesting. I'll be checking powered required (rpm) at my normal cruise speed too to see if there is noticable degradation in airspeed at my normal cruise power setting. 



Stay tuned.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

While Thom's VG test might prove slightly interesting, it will most likely show much less improvement than it should.   VG size, shape and design is very critical, and when one uses a " That looks about right " method of putting them on, its like trying to design an airfoil of a wing just by drawing what " looks right ".   One might get lucky, but chances are it wont fly very well, the same goes for VG's.  



If one knows how VG's work, they create lots of little vorticies over the wing to keep the airflow from separating.   One very important part of this is that these vorticies be evenly spaced so that they cover the entire wing.  When some guy makes a " Double VG''s " made out of aluminum, where you have pairs of VG's sticking up with uneven spacing, where pairs of VG's are very close to each other followed by wide spaces in between them.   This is horrible design,  you are just creating vorticies on top of each other where the spacing is to narrow, and not getting any vorticies at all in the wide areas.    



Correct placement of VG's is critical, even spacing is important, size is important.  Those that are just using a " This looks about right " method are just relying on luck as much as they are aerodynamic science, and this is not likely to turn out well.  Below are a couple videos of the performance of properly designed and correctly mounted VG's on my Kolb MK III Xtra.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWMRUPH39gM



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN7i8oiJzKE



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

I had a chance to fly this morning with the VGs installed as stated in my previous post. Partial results follow:



Before VGs

Clean stall break at 45 mph indicated.

Cruise speed (TAS) 80 mph at 3,000' Density Altitude at 2,640 rpm which is about 62-63% power.



After VGs on wings only, as described previously.

I ran out of nose up elevator at 42 mph IAS with plenty of roll control available. I'll have to install VGs under horizontal stabilizer to hopefully get more elevator function at high AOA so I can find out the new actual stall speed.



I did my normal cruise speed upwind/downwind average at 2,640 rpm today and got 61.4 mph upwind and 98.4 mph downwind for an average of 79.9 mph with VGs. Before I was getting 80 mph at that rpm. BUT today's test was at 1,800' DA (overcast would not let me climb higher) and earlier test was at 3,000' DA. Because of the difference in DA the two cruise speeds are not directly comparable but they are close, probably within 1 mph of the same at the same DA. I will test again, hopefully at 3,000' DA after I get the HS VGs installed.



Conclusions so far:

My home-made VGs located about 3/8" further back than the recommended 10% of chord, definitely reduces the stall speed and apparently results in only a relatively minor reduction in cruise speed at a given engine rpm. I will add the horizontal stabilizer VGs with hopes of gaining a bit more nose up pitch to get an actual stall break at some speed slower than 42 mph.



Subjective results:

Excellent roll control at slowest attainable speed of 42 mph IAS. Softer, slower landing speed with tendency for tail to touchdown first at this slower speed with higher AOA. That will require slight modification of my landing technique to avoid tail first touch-downs. The electrical tape held the VGs on without a problem at 80 mph cruise speed.



My home-made VGs are staying on this airplane! The SS is a fine handling airplane without VGs but better still, in my opinion, with them.



Stay tuned for further updates when the VG installation is complete.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Watkinsdw

Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 138
Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

Glad they're working out for you, Thom!

Enjoy,

Dave

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Vortex Generators

Dave Watkins, thanks for posting your set up and findings.



I would like to know if you put any VG's in the area past the last outboard rib (in between the last rib and wingtip bow).



Jason

MKIIIC Yamaha Powered

Portland, OR

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