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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:08 pm Post subject: door |
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I don't recall who had the bulging door but it may be due to insufficient
epoxy inside the two halves of the door. No one else seems to have the
bulging door problem and it would seem that the door is flexing outward,
probably because of insufficient stiffness in the lower door , fore to aft.
Another possibility is that the door is too wide for the opening and
although the pins engage, they are not a single pin and therefore bow
outward at the latch mechanism. Another possibility for the outward flex is
insufficient stiffness and a low pressure area since if the fuselage is
viewed from above the entire fuselage does have an airfoil shape.
--
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: door |
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The strap, made out of the right material, is strong enough for secondary. It has been tested on a strap made out of leather with 2.5 layers stitched together.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Sep 29, 2009, at 5:54 PM, John Jessen wrote:
| Quote: | Sad to see that the door issue has come back to the fore. If I recall, this was on my list of issues that got slammed awhile back. Looking forward to a tested solution that involves both a primary and secondary latch, such as autos have. Would the strap be strong enough for secondary? Not sure. I think Tim James has designed such. John Cox, do you remember Tim's solution? Maybe I can get out to his hanger and take some pics.
John J
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:50 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: FW: RV10-List: door
It's really essential that everyone have some improved way of keeping the doors closed: our metal door blocks are one way, buy you could also make your own, get Rivetheads, use a strap or something. This is happening a LOT and it's only a matter of time until the results are very bad.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 2:02 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I believe you may be referring to 416EC; I think the number has now been changed and the aircraft sold. I don't rely on a system. I close the doors and check the pins both fore and aft, both sides, when we load and before takeoff.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 12:21 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: door
That kinda sucks! I've been working on the door latches over the weekend and thinking about the last time I saw this happen. The landing was real firm and the front end was twisted up to the firewall.
From: dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: door
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:30:43 -0700
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 78MU Make/Model: EXP Description: RV-10
Date: 09/26/2009 Time: 1827
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: JEFFERSON CITY State: MO Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, PASSENGER DOOR SEPARATED FROM AIRCRAFT, LANDED WITHOUT
INCIDENT, JEFFERSON CITY, MO
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: SCT029 BKN045 260/08G15 10SM A2995
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. See how.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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[quote][b]
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: door |
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I had a door come open on me in flight when my knee bumped it. My knee only moved it, I would say, less than the 10 degrees that has been mentioned that would set off the door latch warning system. The handle just opened the rest of the way because of the pressure on the door (same pressure causing the bulge mentioned). The door came open about 2/3 of the way and I was able to grab the handle and pull it most of the way closed, then the pilot at the time grabbed the back (another aftermarket mod) handle and helped me close the door the rest of the way.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Sep 28, 2009, at 11:04 PM, Les Kearney wrote:
[quote] st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hmmm
Oaky, I’ll take the bait. How does the latch handle come free in flight?
As far as the aftermarket blocks are concerned, how far the door pins extend is up to the builder. I have set mine so that the tip of the rods extend about ¼ - ½” through the door frames. I don’t think my door frame paint is worth the risk of only having the pins go into the aluminum block.
Cheers
Les
#40643 – living in f/g hell
PS: Does anyone have a strap arrangement that they like – one that will allow the door to be secured in the event that the latching mechanism fails? Inquiring minds need to know….
[b]
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bkbrown(at)minetfiber.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:42 am Post subject: door |
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My build partner, a glass guy, put one layer of carbon fiber in between the
door halves. It's very stiff now...but still considering the middle latch
option...
--
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davelammers(at)mchsi.com
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: door |
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Jesse,
Do you have a picture of the strap (in its installed and functioning
position) that you could post?
Dave Lammers
Jesse Saint wrote:
| Quote: | The strap, made out of the right material, is strong enough for
secondary. It has been tested on a strap made out of leather with 2.5
layers stitched together.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Sep 29, 2009, at 5:54 PM, John Jessen wrote:
> Sad to see that the door issue has come back to the fore. If I
> recall, this was on my list of issues that got slammed awhile back.
> Looking forward to a tested solution that involves both a primary and
> secondary latch, such as autos have. Would the strap be strong
> enough for secondary? Not sure. I think Tim James has designed
> such. John Cox, do you remember Tim's solution? Maybe I can get out
> to his hanger and take some pics.
>
> John J
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Monday, September 28, 2009 2:50 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: FW: door
>
> It's really essential that everyone have some improved way of keeping
> the doors closed: our metal door blocks are one way, buy you could
> also make your own, get Rivetheads, use a strap or something. This
> is happening a LOT and it's only a matter of time until the results
> are very bad.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters LLC
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 2:02 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net
> <mailto:dlm46007(at)cox.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
> I believe you may be referring to 416EC; I think the number has
> now been changed and the aircraft sold. I don't rely on a system.
> I close the doors and check the pins both fore and aft, both
> sides, when we load and before takeoff.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of
> *Danny Riggs
> *Sent:* Monday, September 28, 2009 12:21 PM
> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
> *Subject:* RE: door
>
> That kinda sucks! I've been working on the door latches over
> the weekend and thinking about the last time I saw this happen.
> The landing was real firm and the front end was twisted up to the
> firewall.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: dlm46007(at)cox.net <mailto:dlm46007(at)cox.net>
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
> Subject: door
> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:30:43 -0700
> IDENTIFICATION
> Regis#: 78MU Make/Model: EXP Description: RV-10
> Date: 09/26/2009 Time: 1827
>
> Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N
> Missing: N
> Damage: Minor
>
> LOCATION
> City: JEFFERSON CITY State: MO Country: US
>
> DESCRIPTION
> AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, PASSENGER DOOR SEPARATED FROM AIRCRAFT,
> LANDED WITHOUT
> INCIDENT, JEFFERSON CITY, MO
>
> INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
> # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min:
> 0 Unk:
> # Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min:
> 0 Unk:
> # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min:
> 0 Unk:
>
> WEATHER: SCT029 BKN045 260/08G15 10SM A2995
>
> *
>
> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
> ronics.com <http://ronics.com/>
> ww.matronics.com/contribution <http://ww.matronics.com/contribution>
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. See how.
> <http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009>
> *
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> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> a>http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> =========
> ==
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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> *
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> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: door |
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have you a photo of this arrangement?
On Sep 30, 2009, at 6:30 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:
[quote]The strap, made out of the right material, is strong enough for secondary. It has been tested on a strap made out of leather with 2.5 layers stitched together.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Sep 29, 2009, at 5:54 PM, John Jessen wrote:
| Quote: | Sad to see that the door issue has come back to the fore. If I recall, this was on my list of issues that got slammed awhile back. Looking forward to a tested solution that involves both a primary and secondary latch, such as autos have. Would the strap be strong enough for secondary? Not sure. I think Tim James has designed such. John Cox, do you remember Tim's solution? Maybe I can get out to his hanger and take some pics.
John J
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:50 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: FW: door
It's really essential that everyone have some improved way of keeping the doors closed: our metal door blocks are one way, buy you could also make your own, get Rivetheads, use a strap or something. This is happening a LOT and it's only a matter of time until the results are very bad.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 2:02 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)> wrote:
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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lbgjb10
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: door strap |
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we use the strap on every flight--works great, and rumor has it that someone tried it in flight, and it worked!!! It's VERY simple--a little like the camera strap that you put on your camera--leather with loops on each end. Thread around the gear support below seat --bring other end up and place over door latch. Make it short/long enough that it will not let door open much, but enough for air when taxing. Mine is short enough so that you almost have to have the handle in 'open position' to get strap on(being careful to not bang pins on side of plane,) and then rotate handle, strap is in position with door open about 2 inches. I also go thru all the steps to make sure door is shut, but I like safety factor. I think there is a lot of pressure trying to open door. Cirrus's have had doors open, but their hinges keep the doors from flying off. Only downside is in accident you would like to have it off before landing, but balancing the risk/benefit ratio, I like it. larry
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Larry and Gayle N104LG |
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lbgjb10
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: door strap |
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we use the strap on every flight--works great, and rumor has it that someone tried it in flight, and it worked!!! It's VERY simple--a little like the camera strap that you put on your camera--leather with loops on each end. Thread around the gear support below seat --bring other end up and place over door latch. Make it short/long enough that it will not let door open much, but enough for air when taxing. Mine is short enough so that you almost have to have the handle in 'open position' to get strap on(being careful to not bang pins on side of plane,) and then rotate handle, strap is in position with door open about 2 inches. I also go thru all the steps to make sure door is shut, but I like safety factor. I think there is a lot of pressure trying to open door. Cirrus's have had doors open, but their hinges keep the doors from flying off. Only downside is in accident you would like to have it off before landing, but balancing the risk/benefit ratio, I like it. larry
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Larry and Gayle N104LG |
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lbgjb10
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: door strap |
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we use the strap on every flight--works great, and rumor has it that someone tried it in flight, and it worked!!! It's VERY simple--a little like the camera strap that you put on your camera--leather with loops on each end. Thread around the gear support below seat --bring other end up and place over door latch. Make it short/long enough that it will not let door open much, but enough for air when taxing. Mine is short enough so that you almost have to have the handle in 'open position' to get strap on(being careful to not bang pins on side of plane,) and then rotate handle, strap is in position with door open about 2 inches. I also go thru all the steps to make sure door is shut, but I like safety factor. I think there is a lot of pressure trying to open door. Cirrus's have had doors open, but their hinges keep the doors from flying off. Only downside is in accident you would like to have it off before landing, but balancing the risk/benefit ratio, I like it. larry
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: door |
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I concurr there is a lot of force trying to open the door. There is a low
pressure area outside the window and the fresh air vents are increasing the
pressure inside; There is also consdierable area for the air prtessure to
work on the door One more reason to make sure that your pins have a full
circufence through the metal at the fore/aft door sides. Flexing of the door
may retract the pins slightly.
--
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:49 am Post subject: door |
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I think this is important but not critical to extend through the upright if you are using one of the aftermarket block sets. Mine do happen to protrude a little through the upright but every instance of door separation seems to have been related to incomplete latching or the nylon tearing out. If you are using aftermarket pin blocks and shear those, you have bigger issues.  If you are going with the stock setup it would certainly help to go through the uprights not only for strength and engagement but also as an indicator as you will probably be much more likely to notice that it is unlatched.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 7:23 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: door
More 2 cents…Remember to make sure the door pins go all the way through the upright F-1005 and F-1042. I have mine such that there is solid pin (with no taper) engaged in the hole in these uprights. That is a lot of strength in shear with this, so as long as the door and latch is closed properly it is not going anywhere. Now if the door can flex in the middle thereby pulling those out such as if the cabin were pressurized that could be a problem.
-Chris
#40072
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:54 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: door
I disagree that it will take more than metal blocks to solve this. I switched to the metal blocks and have very solid latch on mine. Connect the proximity switch circuit to your EFIS alarm system, and it will scream at you when you advance the throttle and don’t have all 4 pins locked. The solution is not difficult or expensive.
Gary Specketer
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cumins
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:44 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: door
Ok here comes my 2 cents. It appears that there could be some type of design change, better locking longer door pins, longer throw on the pins or a air dam of some kind that forces the door shut and not let it open with a air load in or. Has any Lanceairs lost any doors in flight. Looking at the Cirius doors it is almost impossible to loose on of theirs from the looks of it.
I think when I get to that point I will have to take a harder look at this and see if I can build in more safety into this. I do agree that the door should not come off and cause a major damage or loss of aircraft due to a door opening.
It is time to put some major brain cells into this issue. I think it will take more than metal door blocks to really get this resolved.
I am open to any and all ideas.
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 3:22 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: door
Hi
These door departures are really quite troublesome. It would be interesting to now the following about each of the incidents to date.
- When did the door departure occur (i.e. on takeoff, during climb out, cruise etc)?
- Was the Van door warning installed
- What kind of door blocks were being used (Van’s nylon, Rivethead, IflyRV10 etc)?
- Were any other “secondary” latches / straps etc being used?
The 416EC incident seems to indicate that the nylon blocks are definitely not the way to go when installing doors.
Anyway, in my not so humble opinion, an improperly unlatched door should not result in a near death experience in a light single.
Cheers
Les
#40643 – living in f/g hell.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: September-28-09 3:03 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: FW: door
I believe you may be referring to 416EC; I think the number has now been changed and the aircraft sold. I don't rely on a system. I close the doors and check the pins both fore and aft, both sides, when we load and before takeoff.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 12:21 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: door
That kinda sucks! I've been working on the door latches over the weekend and thinking about the last time I saw this happen. The landing was real firm and the front end was twisted up to the firewall.
From: dlm46007(at)cox.net
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: door
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:30:43 -0700
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 78MU Make/Model: EXP Description: RV-10
Date: 09/26/2009 Time: 1827
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: JEFFERSON CITY State: MO Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, PASSENGER DOOR SEPARATED FROM AIRCRAFT, LANDED WITHOUT
INCIDENT, JEFFERSON CITY, MO
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: SCT029 BKN045 260/08G15 10SM A2995
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