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Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Hi! All 

Partly a call for "any ideas"? and partly a warning to all concerned.

I have managed to very slightly damage the "thimble" filter at the inlet

side of one of my pumps. That was a real bum thing to do but to heap further

"coals of fire" on my head I find that they are not a spares listed part and

no one not even Rotax or Peirburg the pump manufacturer will supply a

replacement. 

It is therefore necessary to buy a new pump ! What a con. if I ever heard of

one.

So, wonderful Europa forum, has anyone any other ideas? For instance someone

somewhere makes the damn things or does anyone have a back door combination

to Pierburg ?!

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:23 pm Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Hi Bob



""any ideas"? and partly a warning to all concerned. 

I have managed to very slightly damage the "thimble" filter at the inlet 

side of one of my pumps."



I don't know what your fuel system looks like, but will comment on "when" I too manage to damage one of my sock filters!



Here is what my fuel systenm looks like:

http://contrails.free.fr/engine_914_fuel_syst_test_en.php



Some ideas:

*Call around to Rotax and Europa businesses and get hold of an old burned out pump and steal filter

*Buy a new pump and put it in your plane, then install a factory filter very close coupled to intake of pump and use it as a transfer pump to fill your plane

*For me, if the filter was just slightly damaged, I would put it in my P1 with good filter in P2. If sock were very damaged and beyond reasonable hold together function, I would just get rid of sock filter on my P1, but remember I have an Andair 375 gasculator very short coupled to P1 that has a much finer mesh filter than factory filter and would accept the small chance that debris may somehow get into intake of unfiltered P1 between Andair gasculator and intake of my P1. Different story on my P2 intake, much greater chance that debris could somehow come from outlet of P1, any one of the many fittings and hoses and connections, G2 or G2 one way that is upstream of intake of P2. If P1 quits, I should have a good to go P2

*If your system allows, just put another factory filter very close coupled to your P1 and put the good sock filter in P2

*Help another Rotax 914 owner clean their sock filter on one of their fuel pumps, and tell them it is a good thing they descided to check, because it happens to be damaged (>switch<)!



Ron Parigoris

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

rob(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Ron, I very much like your implementation but I would add one improvement, that being quick disconnect fittings to permit removal of whatever filters are used without flooding the cabin with fuel when the filters need to be removed for cleaning or replacement.  

   

[img]cid:image001.png(at)01CA49D2.504465A0[/img]  

   

…and no, I have not neglected to use hose clamps – the above is a simplified image from a 3D CAD model of my fuel system, not a photo of the actual hardware.  

   

   

Best regards,  

   

Rob Housman  

Irvine, CA   

Europa XS Tri-Gear  

A070  

Airframe complete  

   

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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Hi Bob,



How much damage is there ?  If its small then a spot of redux might

fix the offending spot.



Just a thought,  Paul

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Hi Rob



"Ron, I very much like your implementation but I would add one improvement, that being quick disconnect fittings to permit removal of whatever filters are used without flooding the cabin with fuel when the filters need to be removed for cleaning or replacement."



I have two Andair 375 gasculators sealed in a box with access from outside the aeroplane (not under the wing either). Easy access, just unscrew bowl after you drain from quick drain and spin off filter/s.

see:

http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album231&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php



I looked at your two series fuel filters drawing. Are you planning on having two sets (of two parallel filters each)? If not and you only plan on 1 pair of parallel filters,  once they clog, turning on pump #2 in either a series with bypass, or parallel fuel system will not be of much use.



Ron Parigoris

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:12 am Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Thanks Paul.

Yes I'd "sussed" that one and it is probably the way I'll go!

Regards and thanks 

Bob H G-PTAG



--

air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:43 am Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Bob,

  

 In my opinion having two filters in serie is  unnecessary and may even be dangerous:

 If the mesh size of the pump filter is equal or  bigger than the one of your main filter or gascolator located upstream,  then it is useless, unless some bad stuff is introduced in the hose in  between during installation or maintenance.   

 If the mesh size of the pump filter is  smaller than the one of your main filter or gascolator, then it can  become clogged by particles not blocked by the main filter. This can happen  very quickly as the filtering area of the Pierburg pump filter is very small.  Moreover, there is no way to visually check that pump filter, other than  disconnecting the hose and removing the filter element with the risk of damaging  it as you did.

 My advice is to get rid of the pump filters  and take all precautions during fuel system installation and maintenance so that  no pollution is introduced downstream of the main filters or  gascolators.

  

 Additionnally here is some information I found on  mesh sizes:

 Andair gascolator GAS 375: 70 micrometers (source:  Andair catalog)

 Pierburg electrical fuel pump: no indication on  mesh size of the included filter; however they recommand the use of a 60  micrometer mesh filter upstream the pump. (source: Pierburg fuel pumps mounting  instructions)  

 Europa supplied in line filters: anybody  knows?

   

 Regards

 Remi Guerner  

  

  

  

 <<<<<I have managed to very slightly damage the "thimble"  filter at the inlet

side of one of my pumps. That was a real bum thing to do  but to heap further

"coals of fire" on my head I find that they are not a  spares listed part and

no one not even Rotax or Peirburg the pump  manufacturer will supply a

replacement. 

It is therefore necessary to buy  a new pump ! What a con. if I ever heard  of

one.>>>>>>



     [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Hi! Remi  

You don’t say which “Bob” you are addressing ….however if it is me ….I have two mini gascolators one on each tank connector both prior to the fuel switch. They are not in series as such but independently  filter the main and reserve supply lines.  

I have not been able to establish how the crud was introduced after the gascolators to get as far as the pump filters ….yet! but without the pump filters it would now be in the carbs!  And “God forbid”! that should happen.  

I always use a gauze filter in the tank main filler, nothing ever shows.  I am considering getting a “Mr Funnel”  but that wouldn’t exclude crud which has somehow entered the pump filters after the fuel passed the two gascolators. IMHO it can only have been inside pipes fitted during rework after the Jabiru was changed for a 914 Rotax.   

Regards  

Bob Harrison G-PTAG  

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Remi Guerner

 Sent: 11 October 2009 12:38

 To: Europa-List Digest Server

 Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )  

  

     

Bob,  

    

   

    

In my opinion having two filters in serie is unnecessary and may even be dangerous:  

    

If the mesh size of the pump filter is equal or bigger than the one of your main filter or gascolator located upstream, then it is useless, unless some bad stuff is introduced in the hose in between during installation or maintenance.     

    

If the mesh size of the pump filter is smaller than the one of your main filter or gascolator, then it can become clogged by particles not blocked by the main filter. This can happen very quickly as the filtering area of the Pierburg pump filter is very small. Moreover, there is no way to visually check that pump filter, other than disconnecting the hose and removing the filter element with the risk of damaging it as you did.  

    

My advice is to get rid of the pump filters and take all precautions during fuel system installation and maintenance so that no pollution is introduced downstream of the main filters or gascolators.  

    

   

    

Additionnally here is some information I found on mesh sizes:  

    

Andair gascolator GAS 375: 70 micrometers (source: Andair catalog)  

    

Pierburg electrical fuel pump: no indication on mesh size of the included filter; however they recommand the use of a 60 micrometer mesh filter upstream the pump. (source: Pierburg fuel pumps mounting instructions)    

    

Europa supplied in line filters: anybody knows?  

    

    

    

Regards  

    

Remi Guerner    

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

<<<<<I have managed to very slightly damage the "thimble" filter at the inlet

 side of one of my pumps. That was a real bum thing to do but to heap further

 "coals of fire" on my head I find that they are not a spares listed part and

 no one not even Rotax or Peirburg the pump manufacturer will supply a

 replacement. 

 It is therefore necessary to buy a new pump ! What a con. if I ever heard of

 one.>>>>>>  

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       [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Hi Bob H.



"I have not been able to establish how the crud was introduced after the gascolators to get as far as the pump filters ….yet!"



Curious, what clued you into finding out your sock filter/s were clogged? If engine stumbled or quit, did turning on second pump get you on ground with motor running normal? Is your fuel system parallel fuel pumps or series with bypass? If you have differential gauge, what did it tell you during episode?



Thx.

Ron Parigoris

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Hi! Ron

Engine quit over the Pennine Mountains, 3hours after 2 x 200 mile sea

crossings ! (and I would have preferred the sea !) The engine started

immediately on switching to reserve, but on strip down there was more crud

in the reserve pump than the main pump ! But with the reserve tank getting

all initial fillings that doesn't surprise me, the main should always be

less susceptible to having any contamination. (Still doesn't explain how the

gascolators didn't stop it)

The pumps are arranged as per the Europa fuel circuit plan to work on a

parallel basis with the one way valves likewise arranged.

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge. Reserve got me to a suitable airfield

except Leeds Bradford International offered me a runway (20 miles).

Dropped both gascolator bowls off ...nothing found. Flew home airfield to

airfield and on initial check, before any disturbances, both pumps and

return were running at 150 litres per hour. 

I'm hoping it is not a repeat of my tank finger filter experience of 5 years

ago where a ball of fibre dangled in front of the badly drilled intersection

of the original tank connectors eventually plugging it (wash basin type

effect) I now have the Singleton connectors  and improved finger filters

installed.

Problem is you can not reverse flow the finger filters to clean them of this

type of contamination.(just shouldn't be there in the first place!)

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG 



--

rob(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: Fuel Pumps Rotax 914 System.(Pierburg )

Good catch.  Your point is well taken.  Now I have to figure out which of

the numerous Europa and Rotax fuel systems designs my scheme was based on,

or which one I may have mis-interpreted.



..and I missed the point that you mounted the filters outside of the cabin

thus negating the need for easy spill proof removal.

Best regards,



Rob Housman

Irvine, CA 

Europa XS Tri-Gear

A070

Airframe complete

--

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