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gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:44 pm Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

At 01:12 PM 10/31/2009, Mike Welch wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    You could do the calculations of determining the "pressure head" of your 

 UltraStar's fuel system, but I doubt you need to.  You already know it 

 works just fine.


	


It works just fine now, but as I said, there are reasons I'm interested in 

changing it.



The head pressure due to gravity is roughly 1/2 psi per foot.  My Mikuni 

pump puts out 2-4 psi.  I know I need the larger float needle, but I don't 

know the required height.  When I adjusted the Stromberg carburetor in my 

Taylorcraft, it gave specs for the fuel height when checking float 

function.  I've seen nothing like that for the Mikuni.



-Dana

--

  Scientists cause cancer in laboratory animals.

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

> The head pressure due to gravity is roughly 1/2 psi per foot. My Mikuni 

 	  Quote: 	
		   pump puts out 2-4 psi. I know I need the larger float needle, but I don't 

 know the required height. When I adjusted the Stromberg carburetor in my 

 Taylorcraft, it gave specs for the fuel height when checking float 

 function. I've seen nothing like that for the Mikuni.

 

 -Dana

 
	


  Dana,

 

  Now you have me curious why you want to change your already fine working gravity flow system.  You must be getting ready to design something.

 

  Small detail I thought I'd mention, though.  You mention the head pressure is about 1/2 psi per foot.  I believe you may be quoting the water head pressure per foot of .433 psi.

 

  Since head pressure is a factor of weight, and gasoline weighs less than water, it doesn't give the approximation I think you referred to.  Gasoline has a head pressure only 3/4th that of water.

 

  This is discussed from the following article:

 

For ambient water, divide feet of head by 2.31 (or multiply by .433). If the liquid is not water, then you must factor the specific gravity of the liquid.      Specific gravity is the relative density of a liquid compared to water. We say that ambient water (at sea level) has a specific gravity of 1.0. Another liquid might be denser (heavier) or less dense than water. For example, sulfuric acid is twice as dense as ambient water; it has a specific gravity of 2.0.    Returning to the pump that develops 70 feet of head â€” if pumping sulfuric acid, the pump will exhibit 60 PSI across the pump (i.e., 70 feet/2.31 x sp. gr.(2) = 60 PSI).    Gasoline has a specific gravity of 0.75. This means an equal volume of gasoline would weigh Â¾ or 75 percent the weight of water.

 

  The actual website that discusses head pressures is:



http://www.flowcontrolnetwork.com/issuearticle.asp?ArticleID=236

 

  To calculate specific gravity of an item, you use the folowing formula:

     

 Relative density (RD) or specific gravity (SG) is a dimensionless quantity, as it is the ratio of either densities or weights

   where RD is relative density, Ïsubstance is the density of the substance being measured, and Ïreference is the density of the reference. (By convention Ï, the Greek letter [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rho_(letter)]rho[/url], denotes density.)

  

 Mike Welch

 

 

 		 	   		  Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more.

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:21 am Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

At 08:51 PM 10/31/2009, Mike Welch wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    Now you have me curious why you want to change your already fine working gravity flow system.  You must be getting ready to design something. 	


 No, you misunderstand... I currently don't have a gravity flow system; it's the original setup with a Mikuni pump pulling fuel from the two tanks in front of the seat.  The only thing that's gravity feed now is the third tank which drains into the main tanks.  I want to go with a single 5 gallon gravity feed tank above the engine, to eliminate the pump and free up the space in front of the seat.



  	  Quote: 	
		     Small detail I thought I'd mention, though.  You mention the head pressure is about 1/2 psi per foot.  I believe you may be quoting the water head pressure per foot of .433 psi. 	


 Yes, I know, gas is lighter.  I was being VERY approximate, ballpark numbers.



 -Dana

 

 --

  In America, anyone can become president. That's one of the risks you take.    [quote][b]

worrybear(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

Dana,  I haven't been able to come up with a 5  gal tank I can mount anywhere on my Ultrastar.  I currently have a 4.5 gal  seat tank that is no longer available.   I always run into  interferance with the aileron control rod and cables that run up the sides of  the frame.  If you come up with something that will fit, Please let me  know.

  

 Dan Walter

 Ultrastar

 Palmyra, PA.

  

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

At 09:05 AM 11/1/2009, Dan Walter wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Dana,  I haven't been able to come up with a 5 gal tank I can mount anywhere on my Ultrastar.  I currently have a 4.5 gal seat tank that is no longer available.   I always run into interferance with the aileron control rod and cables that run up the sides of the frame.  If you come up with something that will fit, Please let me know. 	


 Grrr, I meant to measure the space this after noon after flying, but I forgot until the wings were already folded.  The 8" dia x 24 tank _might_ fit, but it'd be close.  A custom tank to fit that space would work, but it'd cost.  I'll have to remember to check next weekend (DST is over so no more flying after work).



 -Dana



 

 --

  Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pacman affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills, and listening to repetitive music.    [quote][b]

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:04 am Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

Dana,

When I reconfigured my US I did away with the tank below my knees and 

replaced the second tank, which was about a 2 gal. almost triangular 

tank located behind my head, with a 5 gal. Exmark ZTR tank which barely 

cleared the cables.  I'll attach a pic to give you an idea.  Seemed to 

cut high grass better with a mower tank mounted, too.



Dave

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

Cool looking rice rocket fairing.



Rick Girard



On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Dave Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:

 [quote]Dana,

 When I reconfigured my US I did away with the tank below my knees and replaced the second tank, which was about a 2 gal. almost triangular tank located behind my head, with a 5 gal. Exmark ZTR tank which barely cleared the cables.  I'll attach a pic to give you an idea.  Seemed to cut high grass better with a mower tank mounted, too.

  

 Dave

 [b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

At 10:03 AM 11/2/2009, Dave Kulp wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Dana,

When I reconfigured my US I did away with the tank below my knees and 

replaced the second tank, which was about a 2 gal. almost triangular tank 

located behind my head, with a 5 gal. Exmark ZTR tank which barely cleared 

the cables.  I'll attach a pic to give you an idea.  Seemed to cut high 

grass better with a mower tank mounted, too.


	


Did you retain the fuel pump?



I guess the first order of business this winter is to order the larger 

float needle and measure the fuel flow, then see what kind of tank I can 

fit in that space.  Where did you get your tank from?



-Dana



P.S.  What happened to the plane?

--

  Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. 

Professionals built the Titanic.

Mrikio

Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 4

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: Re: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

Here is how I solved the fuel tank problem....and the sitting-upright-in-the-chair feeling.The tank is just sitting in place,it is now straight across the back of the seat.

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_________________
Mark R
Kolb Modified US Cuyuna UL2 60+hrs
Kolb Twinstar,503,12hrs
Phantom, Kaw 440 250hrs
SE-5A UL 3 hrs
Eipper Quick, Chrysler power Bee 8hrs
PA28-140...350hrs

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

Did you retain the fuel pump?

      

      I guess the first order of business this winter is to order the 

larger

      float needle and measure the fuel flow, then see what kind of tank 

I can

      fit in that space.  Where did you get your tank from?

      

      -Dana

      

      P.S.  What happened to the plane?



Dana,

I kept the fuel pump.  I bought the tank from a home and garden center 

nearby who deal in Exmarks.  The tank is from a Turf Tracer walk-behind 

mower.  I sold the plane after a windstorm broke a tiedown and bent the 

right leading edge.  A fellow who has a roofing company bought it, and I 

think he's almost ready to fly it.  Only heard from him once or twice 

since I sold it.



Dave

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

[quote="rickofudall"]Cool looking rice rocket fairing.



Rick Girard



Rick - Dude - you need to get with it. That was a crotch rocket fairing. I know, my nephew has one on his Suzuki crotch rocket. 



This is a rice rocket. Especially when the Good Lookin' Old Poop is driving it...



Took these yesterday evening, Sweet Thing kidnapped me and took me to the most incredible Bed & Breakfast you can imagine. The owner's husband left her, she is doing the B&B thing to try and pay the bills, but is charging almost nothing, so I told her I would help spread the word,  here is her website for this place.

http://peaceofheaventn.weebly.com/



Forgive the non-Kolb related, it looked like a slow evening...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (42oldPoops)

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

Richard, Yes, I know it's a fork mounted fairing. Did the crotch rocket thing in the mid 80's and couldn't keep my fist out of it. Got the Interceptor up to very high 130's twice before good sense took hold. Sure was fun at the time, though. 



Rick



On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

 [quote="rickofudall"]Cool looking rice rocket fairing.

 

 Rick Girard

 

 Rick - Dude - you need to get with it. That was a crotch rocket fairing. I know, my nephew has one on his Suzuki crotch rocket.

 

 This is a rice rocket. Especially when the Good Lookin' Old Poop is driving it...

 

 Took these yesterday evening, Sweet Thing kidnapped me and took me to the most incredible Bed & Breakfast you can imagine. The owner's husband left her, she is doing the B&B thing to try and pay the bills, but is charging almost nothing, so I told her I would help spread the word,  here is her website for this place.

  http://peaceofheaventn.weebly.com/

 

 Forgive the non-Kolb related, it looked like a slow evening...

 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (42oldPoops)

 

 

 

 

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funderp47

Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 4
Location: NC

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:18 am Post subject: Re: gravity feed, was Re: Engine quits...

I like learning something new every day. Sorry for the cross posting.  It seems the poster wanted the information spread.  I've never heard any mention of different needle/seat sizes for gravity feed vs. fuel pumps on Bing 54s.



Phil

> --- In engines-ul2(at)yahoogroups.com, "whileecoyotee" <michaeltrogdon> wrote:

> >

> > Hi everyone , I hope this info will save someone the time and money that I

> > just spent on my carb . In may I purchased my first ultralight ( a lifetime

> > dream of mine ) a tierra 1 , It has a old bing 54 carb that was ether over

> > flowing or would run out of fuel there was no in between , it was extremely

> > sensitive to the smallest float adjustment and temp change .

> >

> > So I ordered the rebuild kit and rebuilt it , no change .

> >

> > After several phone calls to bing and friends some with 20 + years in

> > ultralights and lots of looking on the internet , no definite answer on the

> > problem , I had done the float test for 15 min and they passed but could

maybe

> > be a little heavy , not sure , it was suggested by bing and my friends to

get

> > the new style floats and bowl , so I did .

> >

> > New floats and bowl and still cannot adjust floats properly , so more calls

,

> > in a long questions and answers back and forth conversation with a gentleman

at

> > Bing he asked me what was the size of the hole in the float needle seat ? it

> > should be 1.5 mm with a fuel pump or 2.5 mm without a fuel pump , I said I

would

> > call him back after taking it apart .

> >

> > Called him back and told him mine is 4 mm , he stated my carb was off of a

> > motorcycle and that all I needed to do was to change out the needle seat and

> > that he would even send me instructions on how to do the change with the new

> > seat .

> >

> > Installed the new 1.5 mm seat and it works great !

> >

> > A 2.5 mm hole or in my case 4 mm hole will let the fuel pump overpower the

> > floats and needle .

> >

> > So if your floats are sensitive or hard to adjust or wont hold an adjustment

> > check the size of the hole in the float needle seat , 1.5 mm is about the

size

> > of the head of a pin if you don't have any way to measure yours .

> >

> > Thank You to everyone that helped figure this out and I hope this info helps

> > someone !!!

> >

> > And Thank You to the guy at Bing Carbs.

> >

> > Thanks Mike and Happy Flying!!!!

>

> How did you get the seat out ?

>

> To my knowledge, they are pressed in permanently

>

> mark

>



Hi mark , you screw a tap in , lock the tap in a vice , tap on the bottom of

the carb and it comes right out , then you tap in the new one !!!!

Thanks Mike!!!

and Happy Flying!!

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