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g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
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 Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:58 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Frans and all,
Some comments on your safety improvement list
1) Safety belts.
Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed
Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
2) Fuel systems
- routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre tunnel
- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a good idea, I will talk to LAA about this
- do not use original glass fuel filters – They have there limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on.
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it´s location. – What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
- have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would not fly G-IANI without it
3) Doors
- use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the risks involved.
- install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of security. A manual check is essential
4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily “A” check.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
5) Electrics
- use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes)
That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are mechanical
6) Cockpit equipments
- have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed
- have a Halon fire extinguisher – Agreed it is a requirement in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />UK
- have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed
- have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed
7) Outside equipments
- have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in the manual
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
[quote][b]
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:05 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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"4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily “A” check."
... or maybe use the piano hinge method, with a removable hing rod on each side (a-la RV's)? Leaving just the top with fasteners.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
[quote][b]
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Brian Davies
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:29 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an essential safety feature.
Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been an incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire?
It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and weight) using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk assessment you should always balance this with probability and the consequences of the risk materialising.
The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets, safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of defective risk assessment.
Brian Davies
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Safety improvement list
Frans and all,
Some comments on your safety improvement list
1) Safety belts.
Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed
Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
2) Fuel systems
- routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre tunnel
- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a good idea, I will talk to LAA about this
- do not use original glass fuel filters – They have there limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on.
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it´s location. – What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
- have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would not fly G-IANI without it
3) Doors
- use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the risks involved.
- install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of security. A manual check is essential
4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily “A” check.
5) Electrics
- use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes)
That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are mechanical
6) Cockpit equipments
- have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed
- have a Halon fire extinguisher – Agreed it is a requirement in the UK
- have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed
- have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed
7) Outside equipments
- have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in the manual
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
| Quote: |
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/18/09 07:50:00 [quote][b]
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g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector .
I have talked to Andy Draper on this topic. My analysis is as follows:-
Ideally the return pipe should be a single piece from end to end. So the high risk of leakage is at the end connections (the pipe being severed mid cockpit is, even in an accident, possible but very unlikely if properly routed).
By fitting a one way valve, this suggests that the unwanted flow is coming from the tank. The engine end (with the restrictor in it) is higher than the tank so fuel would not flow from the line if disconnected. If the aircraft is inverted then fuel will not flow from the tank.
So the only failure mode of concern is disconnection at the tank end. If the valve is there it is at least 50% likely that the disconnection would be between tank and valve, so the valve does not really make things much safer.
So I conclude that fitting a valve is superficially a good idea, but when you analyse it I can't see a case for fitting a one-way valve.
Having an emergency hammer and the fuel vent(s) at the bottom of the aircraft are good ideas I have implemented.
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
$B!!(B
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies
Sent: 18 November 2009 15:28
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Safety improvement list
In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an essential safety feature.
Regarding the check valve in the fuel return line, has there ever been an incident/accident where the lack of one has caused a fire?
It is very easy to add a long list of additional safety items (and weight) using a "what if" method. If you are carrying out a proper risk assessment you should always balance this with probability and the consequences of the risk materialising.
The reason everyone in the UK has to wear hard hats, high vis jackets, safety boots and safety glasses to change a light bulb is because of defective risk assessment.
Brian Davies
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
Sent: 18 November 2009 11:56
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Safety improvement list
Frans and all,
Some comments on your safety improvement list
1) Safety belts.
Do not use types which formulate loops - Agreed
Make modified upper fixing points - Agreed
I am not sure you need the "lengthened and foldable headrest".
2) Fuel systems
- routing outside the cabin (weight penalty none or some) - Agreed in principal. G-IANI is a Trigear so all the fuel system is in the centre tunnel
- return line with one-way-valve or emergency off-selector - Sounds a good idea, I will talk to LAA about this
- do not use original glass fuel filters – They have there limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced substitute we could standardise on.
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it$B!-(Bs location. – What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
- have a fuel warning /gauge/pressure gauge /computer - Agreed I would not fly G-IANI without it
3) Doors
- use unintentioned opening guards and secure them with pip-pins to levers - In the UK the LAA do not approve this. It is a value judgement on the risks involved.
- install serial connected micro switches w warning lights behind shoot bolts. - OK but, as Karl said, they can lead to a false sense of security. A manual check is essential
4) Cowlings
- do not make those little oil/water check doors - so you have to take whole upper cowling away and see and check same time much much more (weight penalty none, use cam locks or equal - so it is pleasure to open so often you like - I do it every 5 flight hrs)
I have Southco fasteners on my cowl. They are a lot of work to fit but do make removing the cowl a lot easier. I still think you need the oil/water check doors for doing the daily $B!H(BA$B!I(B check.
5) Electrics
- use two serial connected master switches; so called panel mstr leaves juice for trim, stall warner, charging for emergency batteries, clocks, burglar alarms, horns, convenience lights AND an engine starter - total master cuts everything (weight penalty none, normally my total master is always on, I close it only during longs stays over two weeks or just before possible crash I wish, panel mstr switch uses light weight 40A relay which uses only few milliamperes, total mstr switch is mechanical with "a key" and uses 0 amperes)
That is essentially how G-IANI is set up1. Both my switches are mechanical
6) Cockpit equipments
- have a carbon monoxide detector - Agreed
- have a Halon fire extinguisher – Agreed it is a requirement in the UK
- have a personal locater beacon with gps - Agreed
- have a stall warner or AoA indicator - Agreed
7) Outside equipments
- have at least strobes - Agreed. This is something that should be in the manual
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 280 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
| Quote: |
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
|
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/18/09 07:50:00 [quote]
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
[b]
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loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Jan Volcic's aircraft had the sight gauge in the original position by the panel, It may well have contributed to the post crash fire
Locating the gauge between the seats seems like a better idea, eliminating it altogether would perhaps be better yet, if regulations allow.
With a 912S, I've often wondered whether it is better not to use the electric fuel pump during take off and landing, seems to me that the engine
is more likely to suffer a mechanical problem than the mechanical fuel pump, and in the event of an emergency landing, I would prefer not to
have fuel pumping - chances are I would forget to turn the pump off.
Dave, C-FBZI, Tri-Gear, 175 hours
| Quote: |
2) Fuel systems
- consider the safety of sight gauge and it´s location. – What the manual recommends is not good. Of the variations that builders have done which is the best compromise in terms of safety and functionality?
|
[quote]
| Quote: |
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
|
[b]
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Thanks Ian,
you seems to agree almost everything in my list.
Check my notice below.
[quote] ---
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:24 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Jan,
very good points to consider!
1) Fuel sight gauge: during building phase I understood to relocate it between seats. That is not enough. Now, I hate to look at it. Fuel in the cockpit just behind one millimeter thick plastic tube. One day that clear tube is yellowed, agened and bristlened and it will broke and spoil my upholstery or maybe more if happens during flight. It is almost unnecesary item. Fill the tank always full and then you know surely how much you have. During flight have a gauge /alarm /computer...and your brains and a clock!
2) During emergency landing it (an electric fuel pump) must be off. Better to remember to use master switch (2nd level or even 1st level one if you have) so the pump is also off. What about a compromiss: during short take off use an el fuel pump but with long runways do not?
Raimo OH-XRT
[quote] ---
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ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Well put Brian, quite agree. The art of 'risk management' is slowly been lost.
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street'
Fendalton,
Christchurch.
NEW ZEALAND
Ph. 64 3 3515166
Mob 021 0640221
Email ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)
[quote] ---
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
[quote]---
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frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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G-IANI wrote:
| Quote: | Ideally the return pipe should be a single piece from end to end. So the
high risk of leakage is at the end connections (the pipe being severed mid
cockpit is, even in an accident, possible but very unlikely if properly
routed).
|
I see your reasoning. But why then should we have the possibility to
close the main fuel line TO the engine? If it is a 912(S) it should also
be of one piece, and the end at the engine is also higher than the tank.
Reasoning should be consequent: if there is a fuel close off valve, all
exits from the tank should be closed.
Furthermore, I doubt that the fuel line will remain intact by a serious
crash landing. There has been at least one occasion (I know off) where
the front of the airplane broke off, taking the engine with it.
Occupants survived without injuries. Aluminium pipes will break in such
a situation, and rubber lines will tear apart. In case of a 914, the
entire fuel tank will drain via the broken return line.
| Quote: | By fitting a one way valve, this suggests that the unwanted flow is coming
from the tank. The engine end (with the restrictor in it) is higher than the
tank so fuel would not flow from the line if disconnected.
|
Only if properly "disconnected". In a crash, it is highly doubtful that
the line will be disconnected at the very end, and remain higher than
the tank.
Given the fact that a one way valve will not add significant weight,
maintenance, or failure points, I think it is a worthwile safety feature.
Frans
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frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Brian Davies wrote:
| Quote: | In the UK, homebuilts are daylight VFR only. I have never spotted an
aircraft in daylight by seeing its strobes. I dont think they are an
essential safety feature.
|
I have spotted several aircraft because they turned in such a way that
they reflected the sunshine for a short moment. Not so many planes
because of their strobes that I remember, but few airplanes have them
(switched on). Still, while looking for traffic in a circuit, I have
found the planes much easier when they had strobes.
And then, there are strobes and strobes... There are quite a lot of
pretty useless strobes. Cessna's, with their weak single flash every few
seconds. So we have installed very strong strobes, feeding the three
bulbs with the max they can handle in a double flash pattern, and even
in bright daylight they are sore to the eye. The very efficient power
supply draws 5 amps, anything less would not be visible enough. We feed
30 Watts to the tail strobe, and 16 Watts to each wing tip.
Frans
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Raimo Toivio wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks Ian,
- do not use original glass fuel filters – They have there
limitation but are acceptable if they are accessible and can be
monitored and cleaned. Has anyone found a reasonably priced
substitute we could standardise on.
*I have. It is an original Rotax fuel filter. Goes direct instead
of Europa suplied Profuel filter. It is cheap, one piece and no
glass at all, only plastic, no separate parts, cannot assemble
wrong manner (because undismountable), unbreakable and when used
throw away it. I change them avery annual = every 50 hrs.*
Raimo OH-XRT from Finland
**
Trouble with any fixed in line filter is you cannot check it without
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disturbing the fuel lines so the rubber hose gets eroded every time it
is removed.
It is also possible to block a filter in one event by pouring dirty fuel
into the tank. (especially if the Purolator is installed back to front  )
I think the only acceptable filter is an Andair gascolator. Easy to
check every time by draining a little fuel from the bowl. Won't allow
water through either.
I know we never have trouble with our cars but they either have a very
large filter (with a water drain) and they very rarely get filled up out
in the field miles from anywhere using someone else's scruffy old Jerry can.
Graham
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Weldone Fred, you culprit!
As I wrote earlier - this is a solution I like!
And it really is madeable to the completed plane without too much pain to spoil everything.
If I asked "would you Fred make an another set of those headrest expanders for me" would you?
If so, I am your customer and #1 in this queue, please.
With that money you can buy real safe safety belts...throw those Europa loop belts to the bin.
Spinal in one piece undoubtedly but still as a looped prisoner 
Raimo OH-XRT
[quote] ---
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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zwakie
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Safety improvement list |
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| raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi wrote: | Weldone Fred, ...
If I asked "would you Fred make an another set of those headrest expanders for me" would you?
If so, I am your customer and #1 in this queue, please.
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And I would be #2 for sure!
Marcel
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:18 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Fred,
maybe this the beginning of your new business career:
you have at least two orders and your customers do not know the prices even...
Raimo OH-XRT
do not archive
---
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:42 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Graham
| Quote: |
Trouble with any fixed in line filter is you cannot check it without
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disturbing the fuel lines so the rubber hose gets eroded every time it
is removed.
That is not an argument!
Flying 50 hrs a year and changing an inline filter once a year is an average, I assume.
We change all the rubber parts every five year (some change them every 10 year).
Changing mostly because of ageing.
I bet my plane this disturbing (because of changing filters 5 to 10 times) means nothing for quality rubber hoses.
Think how much or how often the bungee or tyre rubber is disturbed.
Raimo OH-XRT from Suomi
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Safety improvement list |
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Raimo
you missed my point!
It is possible to block the filter in one tank filling as happened to a
Europa I saw recently. It is more sensible to check gascolator before
EVERY flight instead of risking an out landing. Without disturnbing the
fuel lines.
Graham
Raimo Toivio wrote:
| Quote: |
Graham
Trouble with any fixed in line filter is you cannot check it without
disturbing the fuel lines so the rubber hose gets eroded every time it
is removed.
That is not an argument!
Flying 50 hrs a year and changing an inline filter once a year is an average, I assume.
We change all the rubber parts every five year (some change them every 10 year).
Changing mostly because of ageing.
I bet my plane this disturbing (because of changing filters 5 to 10 times) means nothing for quality rubber hoses.
Think how much or how often the bungee or tyre rubber is disturbed.
Raimo OH-XRT from Suomi
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