Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:19 am Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

"Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential rescuer get the  doors open ?"



 Karl,

  

 I understand your point but I have thought it very  carefully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when  inflight (I have pip-pins both side)!

  

 The risks of the unlocked doors when  inflight are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash  landed.

  

 Consider this:

  

 1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the  lever and ask "what is this?". Shit happens, really.

 The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a  pilot has more time to react and say no no no.

 The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a  retarder!

  

 2) Pilots´s or co-pilot´s sleeve could easily lift the  lever by accident - pip pin prevents this.

 The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The  function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch.

  

 3) Passenger side´s pip-pin is a good, simple and  effective door lock when grounded.

 The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a  lock.

  

 4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove  door pip-pins.

  

 5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are  still locked: do you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick  the window and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem  at all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly  visible and understandable.

  

 BTW both of the C172´s  doors are  inflight lockable. I know some people lock them and some do not. I locked  them always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When locked the  lever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in  Cessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing".

  

 Karl, do you accept my (serious) points? 

  

 Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped  door lever guards?

  

 Raimo OH-XRT

  

  

 

    [quote][b]

avi8ordave(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Gentlemen,



I don't want to add to controversy, but...



I have independently come to the conclusion of using pip pins... actually the little red spring loaded ones from the Andair fuel selectors.



Loosing a door in flight is Bad - Bad - Bad!



External Placcards describing how to open the door, and glider window vents allow access to the internal locking mechanism when on the ground.  Gliders don't have external door handles... there is no reason our Europas need external door handles either.



Dave Conrad

A078, Monowheel

914, short and long wings

Building



--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>

Subject: Europa-List:  Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 5:20 AM



    #yiv442352437 hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} #yiv442352437 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;}   "Are you serious ? In an accident, how would a potential rescuer get the  doors open ?"



 Karl,

  

 I understand your point but I have thought it very  carefully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when  inflight (I have pip-pins both side)!

  

 The risks of the unlocked doors when  inflight are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash  landed.

  

 Consider this:

  

 1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the  lever and ask "what is this?". Shit happens, really.

 The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a  pilot has more time to react and say no no no.

 The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a  retarder!

  

 2) Pilots´s or co-pilot´s sleeve could easily lift the  lever by accident - pip pin prevents this.

 The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The  function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch.

  

 3) Passenger side´s pip-pin is a good, simple and  effective door lock when grounded.

 The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a  lock.

  

 4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove  door pip-pins.

  

 5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are  still locked: do you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick  the window and it is gone, surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem  at all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly  visible and understandable.

  

 BTW both of the C172´s  doors are  inflight lockable. I know some people lock them and some do not. I locked  them always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When locked the  lever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in  Cessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing".

  

 Karl, do you accept my (serious) points? 

  

 Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped  door lever guards?

  

 Raimo OH-XRT

  * The Builder's Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/co=============

[/b] 	


[/quote]

         [quote][b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

"Loss of door in flight is Bad Bad Bad"



Just to throw a few facts into the mix:



There are a number of cases now, including the Florida factory

demonstrator.



It is embarrassing, It is expensive,  It creates a lot of air noise.

It does not impact flight characteristics.  The door has not yet

ever hit the empennage.  The plane has been flown intentionally

without doors.



Door loss is considered an incident, not accident and so are not 

reported to the NTSB.



The factory design is better than you give credit for.



In many countries experimental aircraft builders have freedom to

experiment.  There are three rules worth considering:



1: Everything is a tradeoff, a balance of risk and benefit.

2: There are always unintended consequences.

3:(my favorite, direct from B. Rutan):  When considering a new

device for an aircraft, place the device in your palm, then 

accelerate, said device skyward greater than 1g.  If the device 

returns to earth, do not install it, it is clearly too heavy!

_________________
Ira N224XS

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

  

Raimo C

  

 Yes C I accept your reasoning C and I am surprised to read that Cessnas have internal locks. Their checklists probably say to not have them locked on takeoff and landing. My PFA inspector would not have approved the mod C although C my passenger door does have a pip pin lock for locking on the ground only. Of course C if I were to end up inverted C which is very likely in a trigear C in an otherwise successful emergency landing C it wouldn't make any difference whether doors were locked or not C as the doors couldn't be opened anyway C except with brute force. I keep meaning to get one of those emergency exit hammers just for that nightmare situation C and to reroute the fuel vent to the bottom of the fuselage.

 Regarding CO alarms C I can only recommend one which shows any presence of the gas in ppm C and with a high pitched alarm when a safe figure and/or duration is exceeded. You can get them in any hardware store.

 I had a case not long ago C when a loose exhaust pipe caused some carbon monoxide to leak into the cabin. On the other hand C it also confirmed that fumes which sometimes enter via the flap slots on landing did not register on the instrument.

  

 Karl

 



 

 



  

  From: raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Europa-List: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Date: Wed C 18 Nov 2009 12:20:53 +0200



  .ExternalClass ecxhmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}   "Are you serious ? In an accident C how would a potential rescuer get the doors open ?"



 Karl C

  

 I understand your point but I have thought it very carefully and I am very serious and happy with my always locked doors when inflight (I have pip-pins both side)!

  

 The risks of the unlocked doors when inflight are heavier than the risks of the pip-pin locked doors when crash landed.

  

 Consider this:

  

 1) An unthinking passenger can easily lift the lever and ask "what is this?". Shit happens C really.

 The pip pin prevents accidents like this - a pilot has more time to react and say no no no.

 The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a retarder!

  

 2) Pilots´s or co-pilot´s sleeve could easily lift the lever by accident - pip pin prevents this.

 The guard alone is good but not 100% guaranteed. The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be a safety catch.

  

 3) Passenger side´s pip-pin is a good C simple and effective door lock when grounded.

 The function of the pip-pin is in this case to be just a lock.

  

 4) I have in my POH: before emergency landing remove door pip-pins.

  

 5) In the case of emergency landing and the doors are still locked: do you really think it is difficult to open the door? Just kick the window and it is gone C surely! For "potential rescuer" it is not a problem at all! It is the smallest worry in this case! Those pip-pins are clearly visible and understandable.

  

 BTW both of the C172´s  doors are inflight lockable. I know some people lock them and some do not. I locked them always when flying but that was for personal comfort only. When locked the lever was levelled and the armrest was usable. I am not sure what do they say in Cessnas POH - my guess is "do open the door locks before landing".

  

 Karl C do you accept my (serious) points? 

  

 Would you like to see the pick of my pip-pin equipped door lever guards?

  

 Raimo OH-XRT

  

  

 

[quote]



lectric.com

/">www.buildersbooks.com

ebuilthelp.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ronics.com
	




[b]

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

"Of course, if I were to end up inverted, which is very likely in a trigear, in an otherwise successful emergency landing, it wouldn't make any difference whether doors were locked or not, as the doors couldn't be opened anyway, except with brute force. I keep meaning to get one of those emergency exit hammers just for that nightmare situation"



FWIW,

I am planning on installing releasable-hinge pins for the doors....  all attached to a single emergency pull handle via thin/light cables, which will simply pull all the hinge pins out, allowing for the door to more easily pushed out sideways (the strut would still attach them somewhat).

 

Cheers,

Pete

A239

  [quote][b]

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Hi   

   

Just checked the 172R manual from Feb 2000.  The internal door handle has 3 positions – open, close and lock.  The check list calls for doors to be locked prior to flight.  The forced lading check list calls for ‘doors to be unlatched prior to touch down’.  

   

It all adds an interesting extra task at 100 feet after take off when it all goes quiet!  

   

Pete    

   

--

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

FWIW C

I am planning on installing releasable-hinge pins for the doors.....  all attached to a single emergency pull handle via thin/light cables C which will simply pull all the hinge pins out C allowing for the door to more easily pushed out sideways (the strut would still attach them somewhat).



Pete C 

  

A very nice idea. When you get it done C I would like to copy it. An individual quick release on each hinge would be adequate for me. [quote]   



lectric.com

/">www.buildersbooks.com

ebuilthelp.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ronics.com
	




[b]

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Karl,

  

 I checked today Cessna 182 P Skyline´s 1976 POH and there  on the page 4-5 they say (check list before take off): " doors and  windows must be closed and locked".

  

 Otherwise there would be no reason for internal  lock for both doors.

  

 Just wonder that because Cessna´s open cannot open  totally during flight because of airflow.

 Once it opened slightly during my flight because it was  unlocked. That was a passenger side. It was open a little and there was a cap  one or two inches. My passenger - my wife actually - did not like that  semi-open-door flight at all.

  

 On the page 3-5 (emergency landing instructions) they say  "unlock the doors just before touching the ground (!)". 

  

 Raimo OH-XRT

 [quote]   ---

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

All,

  

 so many of you have asked me to show my door  security pip-pins that here they are.

  

 Pip-pin connects the guard and the lever  together.

 Pip-pin has a safety lanyard.

 Placards:

  

 1) "do not open during flight" (both sides)

 2) "open" with an arrow (both sides)

 3) "Warning! Only the pilot is allowed to  open -  close - lock the door" (passenger side only!).

  

 Last notice is because of security and partly because I  do not like an idea to repair the internal parts of the door after somebody has  locked it using unnecessary extra force.

  

 They work fine and I feel good with them. I could not  imagine possibility to fly without them.

  

 Nice to be with you - Mr. Dave Conrad - in a same  club flying with "locked" eh retarded doors... 

  

 Raimo OH-XRT 

 (flying with pip-pinned doors)

 [quote]   ---

Europa_door_pip-pin_P2_side.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

26.14 KB

Viewed:

7239 Time(s)

Europa_door_pip-pin_P1_side.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

49.86 KB

Viewed:

7239 Time(s)

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Re internal quick-release hinges for door

Hi Peter,



Are you accounting for the compression/tension of the upper door as an

important structural member of the fuselage.  It is my recollection that

the upper hinges and door frame are structural, not ornamental.  I have

not done a FEA of the Europa but just looking suggests that the cockpit

roof and door members are in tension holding the fuselage from folding

down during flight.



Before committing to a change in aircraft structure, I'd really suggest

that you check with Andy, Dave, or Bud.



Good Luck,



Ira

_________________
Ira N224XS

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Hi Ira,

  

 Valid points, but I am not proposing any structural modifications whatsoever - just simply making the *existing* hinge pins removable (tho still captured for normal use) and pulling them out of the hinges in an emergency via thin cables attached to an 'emergency' hanle which would be recessed and ornamentally covered to avoid inadvertently pulling it (during one of those "what's that" passenger mements).

   

 Shouldn't weigh more than a few 10s of grams either. Well worth the capability to exit when upside down.

  

  

 ...but thinking further - you mean I shouldn't plan on flying my long wings with the doors and engine off?  That would have given it a real hang-glider feel 



 Cheers & thx,

 Pete

 A239

  

 On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:56 PM, rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>

 

Re internal quick-release hinges for door

Hi Peter,



Are you accounting for the compression/tension of the upper door as an

important structural member of the fuselage.  It is my recollection that

 the upper hinges and door frame are structural, not ornamental.  I have

not done a FEA of the Europa but just looking suggests that the cockpit

roof and door members are in tension holding the fuselage from folding

 down during flight.



Before committing to a change in aircraft structure, I'd really suggest

that you check with Andy, Dave, or Bud.



Good Luck,



Ira



--------

Ira N224XS





 Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273589#273589

  

 -=     * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

  http:/r generous support!

 ronics List Features Navigator to browse

 s.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============



[b]

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Karl Heindl wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Pete,

 

 A very nice idea. When you get it done, I would like to copy it. An

 individual quick release on each hinge would be adequate for me.


	


Count me in as well.



Frans

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

rampil wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Are you accounting for the compression/tension of the upper door as an

 important structural member of the fuselage.  It is my recollection that

 the upper hinges and door frame are structural, not ornamental.


	


I think I have read somewhere that the Europa was intended to be

"convertible", i.e. that it should be possible to fly it without doors.

Ok, nobody seems to like it, but the design is there. Apart from that, I

highy doubt that the door could serve as a structural member given the

fact that the hinges are very weak.



Frans

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Hi Franz,



Yes, I know the hinges are weak from the personal experience of

having my open port door blow off the aircraft in a gust of wind

over 40 kts while on the ground, refueling at Norfolk (after business

hours of course) returning home from Sun n Fun 2006.  



That is weakness in the open/close axis of the hinge, the structure

relies on the fore/aft  axis to add parallel stiffening and tension

path to the roof.



Ira

_________________
Ira N224XS

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: Door locked inflight by pip-pins.

Hi! I was to understand when Europa took some aerial photos of G-PTAG over

Stauning I had to fly no more than 110kts since they had their door off.

At least the passenger side did!

The only "convertible" that I knew off was the fact that G-PTAG was built to

be easily converted to a monowheel should I ever decide. I actually have

photos of three MAIN WHEELS fitted simultaneously!

Regards

Bob Harrison.



--

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum