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Tailplane balance mass

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frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

Gentlemen, I have an important question.



How did the tailplane balancing work out for you with the Europa

supplied counter weights? How much did you need to remove from the

weights, or did you need to add some weight?



I have a large weight, a middle sized one, and three smaller ones. Prior

to filling and painting, one of each size was sufficient to roughly

balance the tailplanes. The tailplanes were built by the factory and

have not been modified (except for the mandatory mod, but this was at

the axis of the tailplane and shouldn't have much influence on the balance).

Now, my airplane is painted, and I discovered that with all 5 weights on

the balance arm, I'm still slightly out of balance.

The manual strongly suggests that it should be "more than likely" that

some weight has to be removed, and that it is very unlikely that one

needs additional weight. But I need additional weight, and I want to

know whether this is normal, and if not, what the reason is.



As I said, the controls where factory built, and I had no reason to

believe that they were heavier than average.



My airplane has been filled and painted by a well respected painter who

has not only built himself an airplane as well, but has filled and

painted many airplanes from the Dutch homebuilders club. It is not

likely to assume that he has done a bad job on my airplane or used non

suitable materials, but at the moment it starts to look like he added

quite some weight to my airplane. Also the ailerons appeared to be

heavy, as they appeared in balance without any of the material removed

from the lead blocks.



Knowing the weight I needed to add to balance the tailplanes I could

roughly work out that each tailplane gained about 1 Kg of filler and

paint. Is this reasonable?



So, I would very much like to know whether it could be somewhat normal

that the balance weighs are just a tad to light for their task.



I plan to weight my airplane soon, but I'm getting quite worried about it...



Frans

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:19 am Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

  

Frans C

  

 My tailplanes are in the house and I just weighed the port one. It is 5.9 kg.

  

 Karl

 



  

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Tue C 24 Nov 2009 15:50:08 +0100

 From: frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Tailplane balance mass

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>

 

 Gentlemen C I have an important question.

 

 How did the tailplane balancing work out for you with the Europa

 supplied counter weights? How much did you need to remove from the

 weights C or did you need to add some weight?

 

 I have a large weight C a middle sized one C and three smaller ones. Prior

 to filling and painting C one of each size was sufficient to roughly

 balance the tailplanes. The tailplanes were built by the factory and

 have not been modified (except for the mandatory mod C but this was at

 the axis of the tailplane and shouldn't have much influence on the balance).

 Now C my airplane is painted C and I discovered that with all 5 weights on

 the balance arm C I'm still slightly out of balance.

 The manual strongly suggests that it should be "more than likely" that

 some weight has to be removed C and that it is very unlikely that one

 needs additional weight. But I need additional weight C and I want to

 know whether this is normal C and if not C what the reason is.

 

 As I said C the controls where factory built C and I had no reason to

 believe that they were heavier than average.

 

 My airplane has been filled and painted by a well respected painter who

 has not only built himself an airplane as well C but has filled and

 painted many airplanes from the Dutch homebuilders club. It is not

 likely to assume that he has done a bad job on my airplane or used non

 suitable materials C but at the moment it starts to look like he added

 quite some weight to my airplane. Also the ailerons appeared to be

 heavy C as they appeared in balance without any of the material removed

 from the lead blocks.

 

 Knowing the weight I needed to add to balance the tailplanes I could

 roughly work out that each tailplane gained about 1 Kg of filler and

 paint. Is this reasonable?

 

 So C I would very much like to know whether it could be somewhat normal

 that the balance weighs are just a tad to light for their task.

 

 I plan to weight my airplane soon C but I'm getting quite worried a=====================

 _=======

Brian Davies

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:29 am Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

Frans,

I built my own tailplanes and they required less weight than that supplied.

I recently helped someone balance their tailplanes who had used factory

built  parts.  We needed all of his weights plus what was left over from my

weights.  His aircraft was painted by an auto guy and could be on the heavy

side regarding filler and paint.  1 Kg per TP sounds a lot to me but I did

not do a "before and after" weigh so I will leave it to others to comment. 



Hope that helps.



Regards



Brian Davies



--

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:45 am Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

Frans,



Lovely aircraft!  Almost as pretty as the young lady sitting on the wing with you.



For what it's worth, my tailplane balanced with one big, one middle and two small weights positioned using washers behind them such that the weights were held full forward against the roll pin.  The weights had all been bead blasted to remove some thin rust then primed and painted.  So they might be a tiny bit heavier than plain weights.



I not only static balanced the tailplane, but also "dynamically" checked the balance.  That is, I made sure the tail was in balance and had no tendency for the weights to raise or fall on their own.  For the dynamic balance check, I quickly lifted and lowered the tail to ensure that the tailplane did not move when the tail was moved.  This was easier to accomplish with my Monowheel than it might be with your tri-gear. 



Check six,

Bob Borger

 

On Tuesday, November 24, 2009, at 08:50AM, "Frans Veldman" <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Gentlemen, I have an important question.



How did the tailplane balancing work out for you with the Europa

supplied counter weights? How much did you need to remove from the

weights, or did you need to add some weight?



I have a large weight, a middle sized one, and three smaller ones.

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

Karl Heindl wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   My tailplanes are in the house and I just weighed the port one. It is 5.9 kg.


	


Mine are 6.3 and 6.4...



Indeed quite heavy.

I wish I had weighed them before they went to the painter... Now I don't

know whether the factory made them heavy or the painter...



If it is the factory, I'm lucky. If it was the painter, well, ehm, let's

see. If the tailplanes are 1 Kg heavier than they should be, the how

much should the main wings be overweight? And the fuselage?



Frans

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

Hi Frans" Karl Heindl wrote: My tailplanes are in the house and I just weighed the port one. It is 5.9 kg.  Mine are 6.3 and 6.4...  Indeed quite heavy."When building flying wing slope planes just a little extra finishing weight makes them go tailheavy quite easily. Same story withEeuropa stabialtors.Going forward adding an extra weight if you have space or making them out of lead or with tungsten inserts or both should not cause you much problem.I don't know where your CG comes in at, but if you are tending towards nose heavy, perhaps consider making a synergistic harmonazation, add a little tailweight and remove about 15% of the stresses on the mass balance arm and stabilator drive pins?[url=http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2.php?g2_itemId 8658]http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2.php?g2_itemId 8658[/url]compared to just adding weight to mass balance arm which will increase stresses on pins.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

On Nov 24, 2009, at 7:17 AM, Karl Heindl wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  My tailplanes are in the house and I just weighed the port one. It is 5.9 kg.

My starboard tailplane is 5.8 kg. 

	




Karl,

Would those weights be with or without the anti-servo trim tabs?

Fred

A194



 [quote][b]

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

Frans, rather than adding more weight, can you make the effective weight

more by lengthening the arm,

at present, mine is balanced with the big weight and one small one, if i

slide it right out to the end

or two small ones if right back, maybe a small increase right at the end of

the arm, with say a lead weight

might allow for less overall weight, just a thought.



craig

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

craig bastin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Frans, rather than adding more weight, can you make the effective weight

 more by lengthening the arm,

 at present, mine is balanced with the big weight and one small one, if i

 slide it right out to the end

 or two small ones if right back, maybe a small increase right at the end of

 the arm, with say a lead weight

 might allow for less overall weight, just a thought.



 craig

   

Or replace drilled out steel by lengths of tungsten electrode:
	


http://www.lasplaza.nl/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=175&products_id=1182

Same thought, but keeping the supplied weights.

Jan de Jong

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

 	  Quote: 	
		   craig bastin wrote:

> Frans, rather than adding more weight, can you make the effective weight

> more by lengthening the arm,

Jan de Jong wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Or replace drilled out steel by lengths of tungsten electrode:

Ok, thanks. The problem however is not how to solve this. I just wanted

to know if it could be somehow acceptable that I have to add weight, or

that it indicates that something is terribly wrong.

I will weigh the total aircraft to see how bad it is. Hopefully just the

factory built controls or filling work is somewhat heavy, and the rest

of the airplane is ok.

Frans

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I don't know where your CG

 comes in at, but if you are tending towards nose heavy, perhaps consider


	


Probably not. I have the batteries (2 x PC310) under the bagage bay, and

a heavy fixed (mandatory) ELT behind the D-panel. If it turns out that

I'm still nose heavy, I will move the ELT as far away in the tail as

neccessary to get into the desired range. Then I have found at least one

usefull purpose for the ELT. 



Your solution is nice, but only if you otherwise have to fly around with

useless weight in the tail. It will cost more weight to balance the

tailplanes by making the leading edge heavier, instead of adding weights

to the balance arm.



Frans

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

Frans

if you cut some lead sheet washers and use them instead of the small 

steel weight that will reduce the extra weight requiref. You might also 

polish some paint off the back of the tail 

Be interested to know the all up weight

Graham



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 , thanks. The problem however is not how to solve this. I just wanted

   

 to know if it could be somehow acceptable that I have to add weight, or

 that it indicates that something is terribly wrong.



 I will weigh the total aircraft to see how bad it is. Hopefully just the

 factory built controls or filling work is somewhat heavy, and the rest

 of the airplane is ok.



 Frans

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:48 pm Post subject: Tailplane balance mass

  

Fred C

  

 That is for the fully assembled unit. Only extras are chromed brass pip pin hole covers C and my mod of replaced ss TP5 with long aluminum tube. Only filler used was for filling in the weave. I assume that most tailplanes are around the same weight.

  

 Karl 

 



  

  From: fklein(at)orcasonline.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Tailplane balance mass

Date: Tue C 24 Nov 2009 10:35:01 -0800

  On Nov 24 C 2009 C at 7:17 AM C Karl Heindl wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  My tailplanes are in the house and I just weighed the port one. It is 5.9 kg.

My starboard tailplane is 5.8 kg. 

	




 Karl C

 



 Would those weights be with or without the anti-servo trim tabs?

 



 Fred

 A194



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