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Power Opti-Miser
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Here's an exchange with supplier of the product
being examined:

------------------------------------------------
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
To: customerservice(at)poweropti-miser.com
Subject: Power Opti-Miser Performance Data?


Good morning,

I'm a consulting engineer retired after 40+ years in
aviation and industrial electrical systems design. I've
been retained by a client to evaluate suitability
of the Power Opti-Miser to several applications.

I am writing to inquire as to the availability of
reports on testing cited in some of the product
promotions I found on the 'net. Can you tell me
if the product is patented? If so, can you cite
patent numbers?

After evaluating any technical data you might provide,
we'll probably order an exemplar device for evaluation
in our labs. Thanks!


Bob . . .

---------------------------------------------
From: "Frank Garza" <frank.garza(at)usa.net>
To: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser Performance Data?

Hello Mr. Nuckolls,

The Power Opti-Miser is Patented....

All you questions you may have can be answered by reviewing

my website Frequently Asked Questions Page (FAQs)...

Thank you for your interest in my porduct

sincerely,

Frank (Owner)

---------------------------------------------

I have searched the website for anything that
speaks to patents, reports or tests with no
hits. I've written back to ask for clarification.
I don't expect to receive a reply.

Bob . . .

[quote][b]


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bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:28 pm    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Bob,
I can’t thank you enough for all the help you have given us. You have likely saved me (and no telling how many others) $1000 by fully explaining how this thing works and why we would be wasting our money. It just looked too good to be true and I could only think of one place to get an answer and you came through again!

Thanks! Bob.

Bill B



From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 1:29 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: re: Power Opti-Miser

Here's an exchange with supplier of the product
being examined:

------------------------------------------------
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
To: customerservice(at)poweropti-miser.com
Subject: Power Opti-Miser Performance Data?


Good morning,

I'm a consulting engineer retired after 40+ years in
aviation and industrial electrical systems design. I've
been retained by a client to evaluate suitability
of the Power Opti-Miser to several applications.

I am writing to inquire as to the availability of
reports on testing cited in some of the product
promotions I found on the 'net. Can you tell me
if the product is patented? If so, can you cite
patent numbers?

After evaluating any technical data you might provide,
we'll probably order an exemplar device for evaluation
in our labs. Thanks!


Bob . . .

---------------------------------------------
From: "Frank Garza" <frank.garza(at)usa.net>
To: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser Performance Data?

Hello Mr. Nuckolls,

The Power Opti-Miser is Patented....

All you questions you may have can be answered by reviewing

my website Frequently Asked Questions Page (FAQs)...

Thank you for your interest in my porduct

sincerely,

Frank (Owner)

---------------------------------------------

I have searched the website for anything that
speaks to patents, reports or tests with no
hits. I've written back to ask for clarification.
I don't expect to receive a reply.

Bob . . .
Quote:
www.aeroelectric.com
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:49 am    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

At 11:20 PM 12/9/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
Bob,
I can’t thank you enough for all the help you have given us. You have likely saved me (and no telling how many others) $1000 by fully explaining how this thing works and why we would be wasting our money. It just looked too good to be true and I could only think of one place to get an answer and you came through again!

What you're experiencing is the beneficial fall-out for
what scientists call perpetual skepticism. There is NO
idea, new, old, obscure or widely practiced that should be
shielded from questions. Good ideas offered by honorable people
welcome the opportunity to share. Some folks must resist
questions about bad ideas when the answers shine a bright
light on their ignorance/dishonesty. It's the
difference between being a teacher and a huckster.

For the limited times I subject myself to what
spews from contemporary television broadcasting,
I sometimes amuse myself with a fantasy about writing
to the advertisers of many products and services to
ask some questions. Obviously a waste of time. We KNOW
it's unlikely that any answer at all will be gratifying.
Their sales depends on how much folks DON'T know about
the product or service being offered. I would be simply
dismissed as a nuisance.

Quote:
Thanks! Bob.

No problem. Now YOU are armed with some concepts and
facts that qualify you to teach what you've learned.
Use it in good heath for the benefit of those who are
important to you.

Bob . . .
[quote][b]


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Eric M. Jones



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Yes, indeed it is possible and even money saving to use such a device. I was initially puzzled how little technical stuff there was, but then I remembered that NASA worked on, published and licensed everything in the early 1980s. (Patent + 20 years...hey!).

Power-Miser technology was a big deal then: Google "Power Miser NASA" and you will get lots of info. Or search the old NASA archives or patents around 1980.

The way the thing works is er...ah...well...I think it might change the power factor to match the load. I did a lot of work on power factor correction and I can assure you saving money is possible. This works only on inductive loads as far as I remember.

The product is real, and so is the money savings. How long it takes to pay off the device varies.


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Ed Anderson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:47 pm    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Just a wag, but from long ago, I seem to recall that an electric motor
(inductor) had the voltage lagging the current by 90 deg phase (or perhaps
it was the current lagging the voltage), in any case, you get the maximum
efficiency out of the juice if the voltage and current are in phase. I
can't recall the details, but seems I recall a capacitor was used to shift
the phase of the current to be in phase with the voltage.

Or perhaps something I dreamed as a youth {:>)

Ed

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Bob,

I find that yelling the questions at the TV offers some satisfaction,
and is quicker than writing, but I'm typically stared at by those around me.

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
do not archive

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:
At 11:20 PM 12/9/2009, you wrote:
> Bob,
> I can’t thank you enough for all the help you have given us. You have
> likely saved me (and no telling how many others) $1000 by fully
> explaining how this thing works and why we would be wasting our
> money. It just looked too good to be true and I could only think of
> one place to get an answer and you came through again!
>

What you're experiencing is the beneficial fall-out for
what scientists call perpetual skepticism. There is NO
idea, new, old, obscure or widely practiced that should be
shielded from questions. Good ideas offered by honorable people
welcome the opportunity to share. Some folks must resist
questions about bad ideas when the answers shine a bright
light on their ignorance/dishonesty. It's the
difference between being a teacher and a huckster.

For the limited times I subject myself to what
spews from contemporary television broadcasting,
I sometimes amuse myself with a fantasy about writing
to the advertisers of many products and services to
ask some questions. Obviously a waste of time. We KNOW
it's unlikely that any answer at all will be gratifying.
Their sales depends on how much folks DON'T know about
the product or service being offered. I would be simply
dismissed as a nuisance.

> Thanks! Bob.

No problem. Now YOU are armed with some concepts and
facts that qualify you to teach what you've learned.
Use it in good heath for the benefit of those who are
important to you.

Bob . . .

*


*


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jay(at)horriblehyde.com
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:52 pm    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

You are on the right track Ed, an inductive load, such as a motor, will
produce a lagging current (the current phase angle lags, or is 'behind', the
voltage phase angle). An ideal inductor will produce a lag angle of 90deg,
and an ideal capacitor will produce a lead angle of 90deg, hence they cancel
one another (should you have an ideal inductor and capacitor of the same
size connected to your system) and the current is thus in phase with the
voltage.
The angle between the voltage and current is called the phase relation angle
and is also termed 'phi' from the greek symbol used in diagrams to
illustrate it. The Cosine of phi is termed the power factor. The smaller
the angle the more cos phi tends to 1, which is what you want. Reactive
power, which is also called the 'non-real' component of power is the
bug-bear of AC systems and one tries to minimise this. Reactive power is
calculated by considering the sine of phi, viz: Q= VxIxsin phi where Q is
reactive power. Active power, P, is calculated by using P= VxIxcos phi.

That as background; in AC systems most loads are inductive but the 'phi'
angle is not 90deg (lagging), but more like 30deg. Similarly, capacitors
are also not perfect and do not have a 90deg leading angle.

When one attempts power factor correction it only really works well when
your load, and load angle (phi) is constant; then you can match capacitors
to the lagging load angle and get it as close to zero as possible. However,
in the real world loads are seldom constant; their actual load varies,
voltage conditions vary from the supplier, and also from other nearby loads
as they switch in and out. Thus a fixed size capacitor cannot keep the load
angle to a constant minimum. Some power factor correction systems switch
various capacitor sizes in and out but they are normally too slow to react
accurately. The cost of maintenance on capacitors and such switching
systems usually means that they seldom save the user costs in the long run;
a combination of the installation costs, maintenance and poor real savings
(as a result of how power is generally costed).

Newer systems employ a special transformer that can be 'driven' in and out
of saturation (which then controls its lagging power angle) and these,
together with switched capacitors, appear to be able to offer real savings
in the long term. Their capital cost ensures that they are only used in
fairly large installations- say 400kVA and larger.

Another power saving device that one wants to steer clear of is something
called the 'Magniwork' generator. It promises substantial power savings and
a search of the web will get many hits that appear to verify the claim. A
colleague of mine paid the $60 for the plans and asked me to evaluate them.
They appeared impressive at first glance but it soon became apparent that it
was absolute nonsense and that the author was working on the 'bullshit
baffles brains' principle.

At least the capacitors are based on real engineering knowledge...

Jay

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retasker(at)optonline.net
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:12 pm    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Yeah, my wife sometimes thinks I'm nuts when I start explaining how
stupid some of the claims are and how what they are saying is often
impossible. Fortunately, I don't watch much TV so she hasn't decided to
commit me yet.

Dick Tasker

ray wrote:
Quote:


Bob,

I find that yelling the questions at the TV offers some satisfaction,
and is quicker than writing, but I'm typically stared at by those
around me.

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
do not archive

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 11:20 PM 12/9/2009, you wrote:
>> Bob,
>> I can’t thank you enough for all the help you have given us. You
>> have likely saved me (and no telling how many others) $1000 by fully
>> explaining how this thing works and why we would be wasting our
>> money. It just looked too good to be true and I could only think of
>> one place to get an answer and you came through again!
>>
>
> What you're experiencing is the beneficial fall-out for
> what scientists call perpetual skepticism. There is NO
> idea, new, old, obscure or widely practiced that should be
> shielded from questions. Good ideas offered by honorable people
> welcome the opportunity to share. Some folks must resist
> questions about bad ideas when the answers shine a bright
> light on their ignorance/dishonesty. It's the
> difference between being a teacher and a huckster.
>
> For the limited times I subject myself to what
> spews from contemporary television broadcasting,
> I sometimes amuse myself with a fantasy about writing
> to the advertisers of many products and services to
> ask some questions. Obviously a waste of time. We KNOW
> it's unlikely that any answer at all will be gratifying.
> Their sales depends on how much folks DON'T know about
> the product or service being offered. I would be simply
> dismissed as a nuisance.
>
>> Thanks! Bob.
>
> No problem. Now YOU are armed with some concepts and
> facts that qualify you to teach what you've learned.
> Use it in good heath for the benefit of those who are
> important to you.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
> *



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rv8iator



Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Newberg, OR

PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:41 am    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Hmmmm...

I Googled "power miser nasa" and came up with nothing that had anything to do with PF correction. Googleing "nasa power factor correction" did get some hits for power factor correction on spacecraft. What am I missing?
Chris Stone
RV-8
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:33 am    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

At 08:35 AM 12/11/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chris Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net>

Hmmmm...

I Googled "power miser nasa" and came up with nothing that had anything to do with PF correction. Googleing "nasa power factor correction" did get some hits for power factor correction on spacecraft. What am I missing?

I'm not sure the NASA based commercial off the shelf
products were ever touted as "power factor" correction devices.
WAaaaayyyy back when, NASA used to publish what they
called "Tech Briefs". I used to read them as a young
buck tech writer at Cessna about 1964. These were
"ideas for design" offered into public domain when
the idea was not critical to national security or
some such. One could get a low or zero cost license
to use the idea by petitioning NASA . . . a sort of
back-door patent that only the government could pull
off so slickly.

I don't recall reading any briefs on "power saving"
devices for AC motors but some guy name Nola at NASA
probably published a very technical, properly
disclosed and accurately described idea on some means
of improving power distribution efficiency. See page 67
from this 1980 issue of Popular Science:

http://tinyurl.com/y8hfqla

Once you dump such ideas into the public domain,
all manner of entrepreneur is free to exploit that
information in the free market. Unfortunately,
the human condition all but guarantees that some
individuals will cherry pick, distort or even
grossly mis-represent both source for and effectiveness
of an idea.

The corollary factor of the human condition is that
the imagination of the ignorant and unwary consumer is
tweaked by phrases like: "developed by NASA", "proven in
independent laboratory tests", or even "Tiger Woods
wouldn't be without one."

The first flag to go up on any claim of power savings
is to check the numbers . . . 20, 25 or even 30% savings?
If a system that consumes say 10A at 120 VAC (1200 VAR)
is LOOSING 30% of its consumed power, then 300 watts
of LOST energy has to be coming off as heat. We know
that the only way an electro-mechanical device can
squander energy is by the diversion from useful output
to heat (friction) + I(squared)*R. We know further that
copper wire used to wind the motor has losses that cannot
be "corrected for".

So the nameplate efficiency ratings for any motor
(Eff% = power-out/power-in) takes those losses into
account AT THE NAMEPLATE current draw of the motor.
An endeavor to reduce losses from outside the motor
can only exploit our ability to correct power factor
thus reducing the I(squared)*R losses for the same
power output. While the efficiency of the motor may
go up (you now need to use more gas to heat the shop)
the effect on your power factor corrected light meter
is minimal. To gain 30% savings in I(squared)*R losses,
the current reduction for same power output has
to be reduced by 16% (.84 x .84 = .7). This means
PERFECT tuning of power factor (hard to do). Now,
apply these savings to a device like a table
saw, drill press or even your air compressor.
Assume you can wipe out ALL power factor induced
losses for a device with a 1% duty cycle over
a month's period of time. What "savings" are there
to be realized?

The TV hucksters are fond of showing you before/
after meter readings on an unloaded motor. The
REAL test is to put a 1 h.p. dynamometer load
on the motor for say, 10 hours. Then do a before/after
reading on your light-meter at the back of the house!

This is why I asked for a test report from the
promoter of the Opti-Miser. Any well crafted,
properly conducted, honestly reported cost study
of this product's effectivity would tell us exactly
how the claims are justified.

Bob . . . [quote][b]


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rjquillin



Joined: 13 May 2007
Posts: 123
Location: KSEE

PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:14 am    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

At 07:31 12/11/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
WAaaaayyyy back when, NASA used to publish what they
called "Tech Briefs".

And they still publish the Tech Briefs today...

http://www.techbriefs.com/

Ron Q. [quote][b]


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Eric M. Jones



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

I half suspect the problem is figuring out what to search. Miser is spelled a bunch of different ways.

This will make it easier:

Check: energyexperts.org/EnergySolutionsDatabase/ResourceDetail.aspx?id=992

Also see attached for the original Nola NASA patent. You DO believe the government don't you????


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AlternaTIFF printout.pdf
 Description:
Nola/NASA Power saver PDF

Download
 Filename:  AlternaTIFF printout.pdf
 Filesize:  39.48 KB
 Downloaded:  542 Time(s)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

At 10:22 AM 12/11/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>

I half suspect the problem is figuring out what to search. Miser is spelled a bunch of different ways.

This will make it easier:

Check: energyexperts.org/EnergySolutionsDatabase/ResourceDetail.aspx?id=992

. . . and how does this article argue with anything
I've written?


Quote:
Also see attached for the original Nola NASA patent. You DO believe the government don't you????

What's NOT to believe? In the abstract for the patent
(all pages posted here: http://tinyurl.com/yeq6pvr
)
the operational description cites a REDUCTION of power
to an unloaded motor. Okay, this is exactly how the
Opti-Miser was demonstrated in the YouTube video.

Now, we know that the thing was designed to work with
induction motors. We know that it improves on efficiencies
that manifest during an excursion from max operating load
to some lower load (like between cuts of lumber on
your table saw). We read further in the Popular
Science article that wattage reductions (translated
into realized savings) were most evident during
no load conditions . . . but still manifest during
high load situations. The article ends with the a
caveat: "Power savers work but you have to use them
wisely." Gee, do you suppose using them on a table
saw, drill press or air compressor is not especially
wise? Okay how about the compressor motor on your
air conditioner? That's a higher duty cycle, higher
energy load. But does it not run pretty much constant
load? And do you suppose that the capacitors already
bolted to the side of the machine have been selected
for pretty good operation out of the box?

Further, an examination of the circuitry in the patent
suggests why Mr. Nola called it a "controller"
as opposed to a "corrector". The classic approach to
power factor correction in an LCR network calls for
incorporation of good guy reactions (capacitors)
complimentary to bad guy reactions (inductors) so that
wasteful losses (in resistors) can be mitigated. Mr.
Nola's patent offers no complimentary reaction. It
simply watches for situations of light loading and
reduces applied power (with duty cycle switching) to
some lower but still useful value that keeps the motor
spinning. It is indeed a controller . . . not a
corrector.

I have yet to read ANY article wherein the author
compares real-watts-out (horsepower of a motor)
with real-watts-in and demonstrates a positive
return on investment as recorded on your light meter.
If you're aware of any such study, I'd be pleased to
read it. Do you have access to the reports cited
in the footnotes of the energyexperts.org article?

This isn't about what I believe. It's
about what I or anyone else can demonstrate.

Bob . . .



[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

At 10:07 AM 12/11/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
At 07:31 12/11/2009, you wrote:
> WAaaaayyyy back when, NASA used to publish what they
> called "Tech Briefs".

And they still publish the Tech Briefs today...

http://www.techbriefs.com/

cool. thanks!
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================


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nuckollsr



Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 95
Location: Medicine Lodge, KS

PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Speaking of Demonstrations!) Reply with quote

I found a number of lucid explanations on the 'net concerning the return on investment for devices like the Power Opti-Miser. One particularly engaging article has been captured and added to the reference documents library of my website:

http://tinyurl.com/y875vlp

Bob . . .


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Eric M. Jones



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net. The piece you linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards.

Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html and the previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor"

To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose 50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings are small.

Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing?

Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam.

How about it?


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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:44 am    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

At 08:43 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote:
Quote:


Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net. The piece you
linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards.

Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html and the
previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor"

To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was
made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose
50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings are small.

75 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot . . .
Are you telling us that 50% of the energy consumed by
your household is used to run inductive motors under
widely variable loads wherein any capacitors that
come WITH the motor are not tailored for optimum
performance at the design load for the motor?

Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing?

Are you further suggesting that an improvement
in a small fraction of losses sensitive to power
factor amounts to . . . let's see . . . if I'm going
to reduce my electric bill by 20% then I have to
make a 40% improvement in the 50% of my loads which
are motors. Oops . . . all the motors in my house
run perhaps 20% or less . . . that suggests . . .
WOW! . . . assuming my light meter knows that
my motors have been sprinkled with pixie dust,
I can run them for free!

The reason I posted this particular article
was due to the first paragraph. The author says
he has at least one reader that has MEASURED
a benefit. As a scientist he is obligated to
play in the game called perpetual skepticism.

Just as I have gone to the shop and made measurements
to share concerning the physics of simple-ideas
I use in my job, this author is going to the lab
to confirm/deny the assertions that savings
at the light meter CAN be realized.

Quote:
Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and
a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone
with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam.

How about it?

Eric, you give me waaaayyy to much credit. It's not
about expecting people to agree with me. It's about
MY agreement with many folks who have taken the time
to craft demonstrations and offer explanations about
VERY OLD simple-ideas in physics.

These are my teachers. If you don't find value in
the explanation of what I've learned from others,
fine. I'll confess that my own teaching methods
may not be adequate to every honorable endeavor.

So if we're reduced to making book on the outcome
experiments repeated millions every day on the backs
of folks houses, then I'll up you one.

I'll give YOU $1000 and pay for any extra equipment
you needed to purchase in order to set up, demonstrate,
document and publish an article that shows a return
on investment for adding any POWER FACTOR correction
device to your home's wiring. Do I presume correctly
that you have one already? The power factor correcting
meter is already on the back of your house. But you
can purchase some devices with finer resolution for
$200 or less . . . add it to the tab.

By the way, you can improve on the odds for a
positive return on investment by purchasing capacitors
from your local supplier and crafting your own
magic box. Keep in mind too that present trends
plotted into the future suggest that the cost
of electrical power is gong to escalate markedly
over the next ten years. Should we consider this
in calculating return on investment for an
effect that your light meter cannot measure?

I look forward to reading your test setup, experiment
procedure and the raw data. I think Mr. Bluebird would
be equally interested in seeing it too . . . and
he's not even risking any expense for having discovered
it.

Bob . . .


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bobmeyers(at)meyersfamily
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:22 pm    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Eric,

Maybe you should read the same articles you link to more closely.
Here is some text from the link.

"The motor controller is used in industries and applications where
motors operate under variable loads"

I think Bob has been quite clear about PF and how this might work in
average homes. A quick inventory of the inductive loads in my home
show no major variable ones. The two biggest ones, the AC compressor
unit and the circulation fan each have - what I have assumed to be -
appropriate capacitors attached.

As I do have a shop for making my airplane, I do have inductive loads
that might qualify. However, I have been working on my airplane for
three years and would be hard pressed to think that with the short
time, on a percentage basis, that these tools have been on, I could
have saved any money.

Second, the article Bob linked to had some references that certainly
qualify as being more authoritative than you seem to want to admit.
Following up on those references to BC Hydro and Consumer Reports lead
to even more interesting discoveries.

This link for example...

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/home/2009/07/power-factor-kilowatt-hours-volt-amperes-edison-electric-institute-compact-fluorescent-lightbulbs.html

.. confirms that residential customers don't currently pay for bad PF
- not that low PF still wouldn't be wasteful. It also has an
interesting discussion of PF in regards to compact fluorescent bulbs
vs incandescent bulbs.

Bob Meyers

Building Sonex 982SX Web Site Index http://meyersfamily.org/Sonex982.html

On Dec 12, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote:

Quote:

>

Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net. The piece you
linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards.

Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html and the
previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor"

To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was
made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose
50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings
are small.

Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing?

Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and
a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone
with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam.

How about it?

--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 77296#277296



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klehman(at)albedo.net
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:34 pm    Post subject: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Perhaps I'm dated but most capacitor start motors only used the
capacitor to get a phase change for starting. The capacitor did not do
anything for running PF correction IIRC. Have things changed?
Ken

>The two biggest ones, the AC compressor unit
Quote:
and the circulation fan each have - what I have assumed to be -
appropriate capacitors attached.



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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1907
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps I'm dated but most capacitor start motors only used the
capacitor to get a phase change for starting. The capacitor did not do
anything for running PF correction IIRC. Have things changed?
Ken

There are capacitor start - capacitor run motors. See:
Code:
http://tristate.apogee.net/mnd/mfmscsc.asp

Quote:
"The motor controller is used in industries and applications where motors operate under variable loads"

I agree with Bob Meyers. Those motor controllers are designed for industrial applications where the motor load varies. The controllers achieve energy savings by reducing voltage to the motor when it is not heavily loaded. Most of the motors in residences operate a fixed load and will not benefit from operating at a reduced voltage. In fact, operating a motor at a lower then designed voltage will cause a motor (under load) to use more current. Home appliances such as refrigerators have stickers on them in the store showing the annual operating cost. Manufactures compete to make their appliances efficient. It is hard to economically make the appliances more efficient.
Adding capacitors makes sense in an industrial setting. I worked in a factory where motors used the majority of electricity. The power company charged a penalty for low power factor. To avoid the penalty, capacitor banks as big as desks were connected to the primary transformers. And some motors had capacitors installed at the motor starter.
In rural areas, long runs of parallel utility lines create a capacitance which reduces the power factor, but in the opposite direction as inductive loads. The utility company counteracts this excessive capacitance by installing inductors on the electric poles. Perhaps you have noticed what appears to be transformers on poles and wondered why they were there with no houses around.
Theoretically a Power Opti-Miser will save energy. And theoretically a fly landing on an aircraft carrier will cause the ship to displace more water. But is it significant? It would seem that a manufacture of energy saving devices would conduct tests and post the results to promote their product. The lack of test results casts doubt on the manufacture's claims. To those who strongly believe that the Power Opti-Miser will help to achieve an energy savings, I suggest they purchase and install the unit and report back to us on the monthly savings and the payback period. Meanwhile, I am going to save energy by shutting off the big wide-screen TV and go work on my airplane in the garage. Smile
Joe


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