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jcumins(at)jcis.net
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 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
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John
Nicely said.
John G. Cumins
40864 Emp in deburr mode then dimpling then Primer Yes I won the primer war!!!!!
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:23 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Most complete tool kit
Chris, like the subject of Primer, tools bring out the personal side of the RV-10 list. Several will tell you that one brand is better over another. Most like the Beach Boys song "Be true to your school" have not played the field much. The key is the feel, balance and weight in Your Hands. Speed is indeed a factor in improving quality of production. You can always regulate down a faster product for slower cutting or deity forbid "Drill an errant rivet". The inverse is not possible. Trueness of the "chucked bit" is another. Some chucks tend to wear out more quickly than others. Many builders love the keyless chuck. Noise of the pneumatics and consistent speed under load are two metrics to measure your options against. Pilots tend to go deaf from flying without noise cancelling headsets. Builders do it from their pneumatic tools. Be sure and get protection that you enjoy wearing.
I have two Sioux palm reversibles and love them. I found the Dotco with ergonomic grip to be even more comfortable. I cannot stand the miniature (hard to find) special size key necessary to change items in the Sioux chuck. I would love to have a keyless chuck in just one of mine but there are tradeoffs when trying to back out a stuck bit that is turning in the chuck. The reason I have two small drives (five in total) is the convenience of have PRE set up a 0.030 bit, another with the 0.040, another with a micro cage for countersinking and another for scotchbrite disks on an arbor. Many of the micro cages will have a bushing rather than a bearing and begin migrating at the end of the build as your QC level becomes more demanding. And yes, I use both reamers and Cogswell Deburr tools.
Some of us follow the path of Tiger Woods in life, I have a fetish for tools. A quality tool in the hand of a craftsman, properly applied can be a thing of beauty. For shops to die for, visit the archive of Bob Newman's - TCW workshop. Pictures can be far more eloquent.
No one has yet mentioned a 90 or 45 degree drill for those tight spots using 1/4" x 28 threaded bits. I even have a "East Indian" manufactured pancake drill for hard to reach areas with only 1" of headroom. 60% of my stuff has come from Ebay. About 10% gets re-sold so Caveat Emptor.
Many are building quality products with the most basic of builder tools. A majority of builders learn about the tool options later in the build rather than in the beginning. Few of them have been willing to sell anything after completion of their kit. Others are fortunate enough to have access to the DRDT2 dimpler or share it around with friends. That will be the hardest tool to sneak past my wife in her random tours of the hangar. Visit Tim Olson's site on how to engage your partner in the build and its rewards.
Enjoy the journey and consider engaging one or several EAA Tech Advisors (near you) to share with you the roads less traveled or infrequently repaved by builder mistakes. Visit http://www.eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html . Feel at ease contacting builders Offline - Anytime.
John Cox
Aurora, OR
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Colohan
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:55 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
While I've got the experts on the line...
I'm currently trying to acquire used tools (aka, on the cheap) to start building an RV-10. I've been looking at ebay for drills, and realize I don't quite know what I need.
In particular, when I read articles on building, I've seen multiple references (including the Sioux web site) which say you need >5000rpm in a drill for working with aluminum. But such a drill doesn't seem to exist, and the drills that come with RV-10 tool kits tend to be around 2000rpm.
If I just buy one of the (many) older Sioux drills on ebay, am I likely to be happy? Or do these things tend to wear out or break in funny ways when they get older?
Chris
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Pascal <rv10builder(at)verizon.net (rv10builder(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
I looked at putting a keyless chuck on my Sioux, but in the end I never really felt that it was a big enough deal to actually do it. I think if one is frugal, like me, it certainly is worth just trying everything as is and upgrading those things that one really needs (or wants) no different than the kit itself, some items really "need" to be replaced/upgraded and many don't, others are fine as it is even though some have upgraded. My examples would focus around the landing gear; axle, extension, wheel, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Mauledriver Watson" <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 7:20 AM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
> I have the red one and not sure the teasing capability is very good, so
> the Chicago sounds great. Keyless chuck? Can't imagine being without it.
>
> Kelly McMullen wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>>
>> IMHO, your best deal on a drill is from Avery. The Chicago Pneumatic
>> is compact, light, and has a very nice touch teasing trigger, for
>> $125, or $155 with reversing. Sure a keyless chuck is nice, but is it
>> worth an extra $70? Maybe Avery would make a deal combining the two.
>>
| Quote: | > Luis Rodriguez wrote:
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
|
>>>
>>> Score:
>>>
>>> Ischam 3
>>> Avery. 1
>>> Custom 2
>>>
>>> Thank you for the responses so far!!!
>>>
>>> I'll definetly add the hole punch, extra clecos, extra scotchbrite
>>> wheels, and a drdt2.
>>>
>>> I'll eBay the air drill and pneumatic sqeezer.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>
>>> On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:56 PM, Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>>>>
>>>> Which tool kit is the most complete/best to order for the -10.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
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nicholscatoauto(at)aol.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
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Chris,
I used a makita cordless drill so far in the build process(currently working on fuselage). I purchased a CP reversible drill and I didn't like having to wear ear plugs all the time (kind of loud) or lugging the air hose around with me. As far as the rest of the tools I wouldn't do without my tungsten bucking bar. I just wish I would have bought it at the beginning.
Jeff Nichols
#40648
--
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johngoodman
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Most complete tool kit |
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Don't forget a Torque Wrench that works in inch-pounds.
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luis(at)cristabelle.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
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Yes, that's another tool to add.
Sent from my iPod
On Dec 31, 2009, at 4:47 PM, "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
wrote:
| Quote: |
>
Don't forget a Torque Wrench that works in inch-pounds.
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine
on floor & Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79494#279494
|
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mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
|
|
Yes, very nicely said.
Another tool with a lot of variables is a hand squeezer. Yes, you should have a power squeezer. But you will also need a hand squeezer too. Having had the chance to use 3 or 4 different models before buying, I had a definite preference. Others had a different preference. But experience really guided our preferences. If you can find any way to try different types out, it will pay off.
But what you don't know won't really hurt you either.
Bill
---- John Cumins <jcumins(at)jcis.net> wrote:
| Quote: | John
Nicely said.
John G. Cumins
40864 Emp in deburr mode then dimpling then Primer Yes I won the primer
war!!!!!
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:23 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Most complete tool kit
Chris, like the subject of Primer, tools bring out the personal side of the
RV-10 list. Several will tell you that one brand is better over another.
Most like the Beach Boys song "Be true to your school" have not played the
field much. The key is the feel, balance and weight in Your Hands. Speed is
indeed a factor in improving quality of production. You can always regulate
down a faster product for slower cutting or deity forbid "Drill an errant
rivet". The inverse is not possible. Trueness of the "chucked bit" is
another. Some chucks tend to wear out more quickly than others. Many
builders love the keyless chuck. Noise of the pneumatics and consistent
speed under load are two metrics to measure your options against. Pilots
tend to go deaf from flying without noise cancelling headsets. Builders do
it from their pneumatic tools. Be sure and get protection that you enjoy
wearing.
I have two Sioux palm reversibles and love them. I found the Dotco with
ergonomic grip to be even more comfortable. I cannot stand the miniature
(hard to find) special size key necessary to change items in the Sioux
chuck. I would love to have a keyless chuck in just one of mine but there
are tradeoffs when trying to back out a stuck bit that is turning in the
chuck. The reason I have two small drives (five in total) is the
convenience of have PRE set up a 0.030 bit, another with the 0.040, another
with a micro cage for countersinking and another for scotchbrite disks on an
arbor. Many of the micro cages will have a bushing rather than a bearing
and begin migrating at the end of the build as your QC level becomes more
demanding. And yes, I use both reamers and Cogswell Deburr tools.
Some of us follow the path of Tiger Woods in life, I have a fetish for
tools. A quality tool in the hand of a craftsman, properly applied can be a
thing of beauty. For shops to die for, visit the archive of Bob Newman's -
TCW workshop. Pictures can be far more eloquent.
No one has yet mentioned a 90 or 45 degree drill for those tight spots using
1/4" x 28 threaded bits. I even have a "East Indian" manufactured pancake
drill for hard to reach areas with only 1" of headroom. 60% of my stuff has
come from Ebay. About 10% gets re-sold so Caveat Emptor.
Many are building quality products with the most basic of builder tools. A
majority of builders learn about the tool options later in the build rather
than in the beginning. Few of them have been willing to sell anything after
completion of their kit. Others are fortunate enough to have access to the
DRDT2 dimpler or share it around with friends. That will be the hardest
tool to sneak past my wife in her random tours of the hangar. Visit Tim
Olson's site on how to engage your partner in the build and its rewards.
Enjoy the journey and consider engaging one or several EAA Tech Advisors
(near you) to share with you the roads less traveled or infrequently repaved
by builder mistakes. Visit http://www.eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html .
Feel at ease contacting builders Offline - Anytime.
John Cox
Aurora, OR
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Colohan
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:55 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
While I've got the experts on the line...
I'm currently trying to acquire used tools (aka, on the cheap) to start
building an RV-10. I've been looking at ebay for drills, and realize I
don't quite know what I need.
In particular, when I read articles on building, I've seen multiple
references (including the Sioux web site) which say you need >5000rpm in a
drill for working with aluminum. But such a drill doesn't seem to exist,
and the drills that come with RV-10 tool kits tend to be around 2000rpm.
If I just buy one of the (many) older Sioux drills on ebay, am I likely to
be happy? Or do these things tend to wear out or break in funny ways when
they get older?
Chris
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Pascal <rv10builder(at)verizon.net> wrote:
I looked at putting a keyless chuck on my Sioux, but in the end I never
really felt that it was a big enough deal to actually do it. I think if one
is frugal, like me, it certainly is worth just trying everything as is and
upgrading those things that one really needs (or wants) no different than
the kit itself, some items really "need" to be replaced/upgraded and many
don't, others are fine as it is even though some have upgraded. My examples
would focus around the landing gear; axle, extension, wheel, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Mauledriver Watson" <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 7:20 AM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
>
<MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
>
> I have the red one and not sure the teasing capability is very good, so
> the Chicago sounds great. Keyless chuck? Can't imagine being without it.
>
> Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>
>>
>> IMHO, your best deal on a drill is from Avery. The Chicago Pneumatic
>> is compact, light, and has a very nice touch teasing trigger, for
>> $125, or $155 with reversing. Sure a keyless chuck is nice, but is it
>> worth an extra $70? Maybe Avery would make a deal combining the two.
>>
>> Luis Rodriguez wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Score:
>>>
>>> Ischam 3
>>> Avery. 1
>>> Custom 2
>>>
>>> Thank you for the responses so far!!!
>>>
>>> I'll definetly add the hole punch, extra clecos, extra scotchbrite
>>> wheels, and a drdt2.
>>>
>>> I'll eBay the air drill and pneumatic sqeezer.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>
>>> On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:56 PM, Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which tool kit is the most complete/best to order for the -10.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ===========
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> Get Some the Annual Contribution link Terrific Free www.aeroelectric.com
> HomebuiltHELP Contribution Web bsp; ===========
> RV10-List Email browse
> Photoshare, and much ===========
> bsp; via the ===========
>
>
>
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
nk">www.howtocrimp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
www.howtocrimp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
|
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
|
|
I would disagree on the drill. I got the standard drill in Isham's kit.
After completing the empenage I developed trigger finger syndrome,
partly because that drill has a stiff trigger that is very difficult to
get anything but max rpm. The Chicago Pneumatic I mentioned or a Sioux
have far better triggers that take less effort and easy control from 5
rpm to max rpm.
John Cumins wrote:
| Quote: |
Louis
The drill and pneumatic sqeezer are part of the ISM kit you want to get both
from them and I love the feel of the drill fits my hand perfectly.
John G. Cumins
President
JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
Your Total Technology Solution Provider
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
|
|
you'll find that any tool will work, you probably saw a post today from someone using a battery powered drill, he might be getting 600rpm max far short of 2000rpm. With that said my Sioux is 2100rpm and it has worked fine.
The more I build the more I realize the RV-10 could probably be built with hand tools, in other words, yes you'll be fine with a 2K rpm drill.
I also have a 2X riveter, many will say you need a 3X, never saw a need for anything more than my 2x did. Look at the Avery or planetools list and use that as a basis for the ebay search.
Pascal
From: Chris Colohan (rv10(at)colohan.com)
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:55 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
While I've got the experts on the line...
I'm currently trying to acquire used tools (aka, on the cheap) to start building an RV-10. I've been looking at ebay for drills, and realize I don't quite know what I need.
In particular, when I read articles on building, I've seen multiple references (including the Sioux web site) which say you need >5000rpm in a drill for working with aluminum. But such a drill doesn't seem to exist, and the drills that come with RV-10 tool kits tend to be around 2000rpm.
If I just buy one of the (many) older Sioux drills on ebay, am I likely to be happy? Or do these things tend to wear out or break in funny ways when they get older?
Chris
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Pascal <rv10builder(at)verizon.net (rv10builder(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
[quote] I looked at putting a keyless chuck on my Sioux, but in the end I never really felt that it was a big enough deal to actually do it. I think if one is frugal, like me, it certainly is worth just trying everything as is and upgrading those things that one really needs (or wants) no different than the kit itself, some items really "need" to be replaced/upgraded and many don't, others are fine as it is even though some have upgraded. My examples would focus around the landing gear; axle, extension, wheel, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Mauledriver Watson" <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 7:20 AM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
| Quote: |
I have the red one and not sure the teasing capability is very good, so
the Chicago sounds great. Keyless chuck? Can't imagine being without it.
Kelly McMullen wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>
> IMHO, your best deal on a drill is from Avery. The Chicago Pneumatic
> is compact, light, and has a very nice touch teasing trigger, for
> $125, or $155 with reversing. Sure a keyless chuck is nice, but is it
> worth an extra $70? Maybe Avery would make a deal combining the two.
>
|
>> Luis Rodriguez wrote:
| Quote: | >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>>
>> Score:
>>
>> Ischam 3
>> Avery. 1
>> Custom 2
>>
>> Thank you for the responses so far!!!
>>
>> I'll definetly add the hole punch, extra clecos, extra scotchbrite
>> wheels, and a drdt2.
>>
>> I'll eBay the air drill and pneumatic sqeezer.
>>
>> Sent from my iPod
>>
>> On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:56 PM, Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>>>
>>> Which tool kit is the most complete/best to order for the -10.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
|
| Quote: | ===========
Support Your Lists This Month --
|
> Get Some the Annual Contribution link Terrific Free www.aeroelectric.com
| Quote: | HomebuiltHELP Contribution Web bsp; ===========
RV10-List Email browse
Photoshare, and much ===========
bsp; via the ===========
|
| Quote: |
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
nk">www.howtocrimp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
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roxianmike(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
|
|
Chris: Jeff makes a very good point.............there is alot of work like drilling out prepunched holes C deburring holes etc. that don't require the power or rpm of an air drill. I used a light 9v black and decker drill and now using a similar DeWitt drill...........having a second battery means you can be charging one while using the other.....and keep on working.
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
Date: Thu C 31 Dec 2009 15:16:38 -0500
From: nicholscatoauto(at)aol.com
Chris C
I used a makita cordless drill so far in the build process(currently working on fuselage). I purchased a CP reversible drill and I didn't like having to wear ear plugs all the time (kind of loud) or lugging the air hose around with me. As far as the rest of the tools I wouldn't do without my tungsten bucking bar. I just wish I would have bought it at the beginning.
Jeff Nichols
#40648
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Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
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If I get to choose a hand squeezer, I'm going with the Cleveland "Main Squeeze". It's the cat's meow.
Phil
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
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I second that. An experience mechanic that has helped me from time to time thought the Sioux was far superior to any drill he has used in his 30 years. He was amazed at the smoothness, "balance" and easy control of the drill. Funny thing is he mentioned that he had the trigger syndrome with some of the drills they have at his job, and none of the drills they use are cheap/inexpensive. (aka no Harbor freight tools).
I believe Boeing uses DOTCO, or they did at one point, I say that because when the store was still open to the public they had a few "surplus", DOTCO, sioux, both great tools, Harbor Freight NOT! somewhere in between there are some great smooth less expensive tools and there are some lousy expensive tools. Stick with a name brand and look at VAF for builders feedback on tools.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:09 PM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Most complete tool kit
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
I would disagree on the drill. I got the standard drill in Isham's kit.
After completing the empenage I developed trigger finger syndrome,
partly because that drill has a stiff trigger that is very difficult to
get anything but max rpm. The Chicago Pneumatic I mentioned or a Sioux
have far better triggers that take less effort and easy control from 5
rpm to max rpm.
John Cumins wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cumins" <jcumins(at)jcis.net>
>
> Louis
>
> The drill and pneumatic sqeezer are part of the ISM kit you want to get both
> from them and I love the feel of the drill fits my hand perfectly.
> John G. Cumins
> President
>
> JC'S Interactive Systems
> 2499 B1 Martin Rd
> Fairfield Ca 94533
> 707-425-7100
> 707-425-7576 Fax
>
> Your Total Technology Solution Provider
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luis(at)cristabelle.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
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So the higher rpms on the drill are not needed? The higher RPMs should give a smoother hole. I would think using a lower rpm will lead to stress cracks in the less smooth hole.
Anyhow...So if one can use an electric drill, than hey, is there a electric riveter? Then using rattle cans for primer, ya don't even need a compressor.....
On Dec 31, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Pascal wrote:
| Quote: | you'll find that any tool will work, you probably saw a post today from someone using a battery powered drill, he might be getting 600rpm max far short of 2000rpm. With that said my Sioux is 2100rpm and it has worked fine.
The more I build the more I realize the RV-10 could probably be built with hand tools, in other words, yes you'll be fine with a 2K rpm drill.
I also have a 2X riveter, many will say you need a 3X, never saw a need for anything more than my 2x did. Look at the Avery or planetools list and use that as a basis for the ebay search.
Pascal
From: Chris Colohan (rv10(at)colohan.com)
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:55 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
While I've got the experts on the line...
I'm currently trying to acquire used tools (aka, on the cheap) to start building an RV-10. I've been looking at ebay for drills, and realize I don't quite know what I need.
In particular, when I read articles on building, I've seen multiple references (including the Sioux web site) which say you need >5000rpm in a drill for working with aluminum. But such a drill doesn't seem to exist, and the drills that come with RV-10 tool kits tend to be around 2000rpm.
If I just buy one of the (many) older Sioux drills on ebay, am I likely to be happy? Or do these things tend to wear out or break in funny ways when they get older?
Chris
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Pascal <rv10builder(at)verizon.net (rv10builder(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | I looked at putting a keyless chuck on my Sioux, but in the end I never really felt that it was a big enough deal to actually do it. I think if one is frugal, like me, it certainly is worth just trying everything as is and upgrading those things that one really needs (or wants) no different than the kit itself, some items really "need" to be replaced/upgraded and many don't, others are fine as it is even though some have upgraded. My examples would focus around the landing gear; axle, extension, wheel, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Mauledriver Watson" <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 7:20 AM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
| Quote: |
I have the red one and not sure the teasing capability is very good, so
the Chicago sounds great. Keyless chuck? Can't imagine being without it.
Kelly McMullen wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>
> IMHO, your best deal on a drill is from Avery. The Chicago Pneumatic
> is compact, light, and has a very nice touch teasing trigger, for
> $125, or $155 with reversing. Sure a keyless chuck is nice, but is it
> worth an extra $70? Maybe Avery would make a deal combining the two.
>
|
>> Luis Rodriguez wrote:
| Quote: | >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>>
>> Score:
>>
>> Ischam 3
>> Avery. 1
>> Custom 2
>>
>> Thank you for the responses so far!!!
>>
>> I'll definetly add the hole punch, extra clecos, extra scotchbrite
>> wheels, and a drdt2.
>>
>> I'll eBay the air drill and pneumatic sqeezer.
>>
>> Sent from my iPod
>>
>> On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:56 PM, Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>>>
>>> Which tool kit is the most complete/best to order for the -10.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
|
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
|
|
While anything is possible, the pneumatic tools are about power and
speed. Yesterday I had a friend to help, and we match drilled &
deburred a complete wing bottom skin in a couple hours with two air
drills and electric screwdriver running the debur bit. Would have
helped to have a pneumatic cleco tool, but I'm too cheap to buy one.
Dimpled all the ribs today in about an hour with pneumatic squeezer.
I paid less for my Husky compressor than my pneumatic squeezer.
Between drilling and riveting, it gets a lot of use. Not to mention
powering the die grinder, etc. The Husky 30 gal or Lowes equivalent
oil lubed belt driven compressors are under $400 and MUCH quieter than
any of the oiless variety.
As for rpm versus smooth holes, with a drill that may be true, with a
chucking reamer makes no difference. In both cases you still are going
to debur, which is what prevents the stress cracks. If drilling, once
started, I go to max rpm..2800 on my drill. For reamer I go easy, rpm
are not needed.
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Luis <luis(at)cristabelle.net> wrote:
| Quote: | So the higher rpms on the drill are not needed? The higher RPMs should give
a smoother hole. I would think using a lower rpm will lead to stress cracks
in the less smooth hole.
Anyhow...So if one can use an electric drill, than hey, is there a electric
riveter? Then using rattle cans for primer, ya don't even need a
compressor.....
|
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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johngoodman
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Most complete tool kit |
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|
Bill's comment reminded me... sometimes slower is better. If you break the speed habit, you will discover that hand files will ultimately do the job, and never make a mistake.
John
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#40572 Phase One complete in 2011 |
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Strasnuts
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
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High speed is good for aluminum. Low speed for metal and even slower for stainless.
[quote] ---
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40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours |
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partner14
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
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This is an area where a lot of rookies make a big mistake..... RPM is important.... but even more important is the right pressure. With stainless - sure, lower RPM, but keep a lot of pressure on it or your drill bit is history.... similiar for steel.... make sure the bit is biting.
It's usually more pressure than you think there should be.... trust me.
Don McDonald
--- On Thu, 12/31/09, Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com>
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 8:37 PM
High speed is good for aluminum. Low speed for metal and even slower for stainless.
[quote] ---
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rv10(at)colohan.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:55 pm Post subject: Most complete tool kit |
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To all the answers I got to my (seemingly simple) question -- wow.
Thank you all for the detailed responses! Now off to buy some tools... 
Chris
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 11:22 AM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Chris, like the subject of Primer, tools bring out the personal side of the RV-10 list. Several will tell you that one brand is better over another. Most like the Beach Boys song "Be true to your school" have not played the field much. The key is the feel, balance and weight in Your Hands. Speed is indeed a factor in improving quality of production. You can always regulate down a faster product for slower cutting or deity forbid "Drill an errant rivet". The inverse is not possible. Trueness of the "chucked bit" is another. Some chucks tend to wear out more quickly than others. Many builders love the keyless chuck. Noise of the pneumatics and consistent speed under load are two metrics to measure your options against. Pilots tend to go deaf from flying without noise cancelling headsets. Builders do it from their pneumatic tools. Be sure and get protection that you enjoy wearing.
I have two Sioux palm reversibles and love them. I found the Dotco with ergonomic grip to be even more comfortable. I cannot stand the miniature (hard to find) special size key necessary to change items in the Sioux chuck. I would love to have a keyless chuck in just one of mine but there are tradeoffs when trying to back out a stuck bit that is turning in the chuck. The reason I have two small drives (five in total) is the convenience of have PRE set up a 0.030 bit, another with the 0.040, another with a micro cage for countersinking and another for scotchbrite disks on an arbor. Many of the micro cages will have a bushing rather than a bearing and begin migrating at the end of the build as your QC level becomes more demanding. And yes, I use both reamers and Cogswell Deburr tools.
Some of us follow the path of Tiger Woods in life, I have a fetish for tools. A quality tool in the hand of a craftsman, properly applied can be a thing of beauty. For shops to die for, visit the archive of Bob Newman's - TCW workshop. Pictures can be far more eloquent.
No one has yet mentioned a 90 or 45 degree drill for those tight spots using 1/4" x 28 threaded bits. I even have a "East Indian" manufactured pancake drill for hard to reach areas with only 1" of headroom. 60% of my stuff has come from Ebay. About 10% gets re-sold so Caveat Emptor.
Many are building quality products with the most basic of builder tools. A majority of builders learn about the tool options later in the build rather than in the beginning. Few of them have been willing to sell anything after completion of their kit. Others are fortunate enough to have access to the DRDT2 dimpler or share it around with friends. That will be the hardest tool to sneak past my wife in her random tours of the hangar. Visit Tim Olson's site on how to engage your partner in the build and its rewards.
Enjoy the journey and consider engaging one or several EAA Tech Advisors (near you) to share with you the roads less traveled or infrequently repaved by builder mistakes. Visit http://www.eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html . Feel at ease contacting builders Offline - Anytime.
John Cox
Aurora, OR
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Chris Colohan
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:55 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
While I've got the experts on the line...
I'm currently trying to acquire used tools (aka, on the cheap) to start building an RV-10. I've been looking at ebay for drills, and realize I don't quite know what I need.
In particular, when I read articles on building, I've seen multiple references (including the Sioux web site) which say you need >5000rpm in a drill for working with aluminum. But such a drill doesn't seem to exist, and the drills that come with RV-10 tool kits tend to be around 2000rpm.
If I just buy one of the (many) older Sioux drills on ebay, am I likely to be happy? Or do these things tend to wear out or break in funny ways when they get older?
Chris
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Pascal <rv10builder(at)verizon.net (rv10builder(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
I looked at putting a keyless chuck on my Sioux, but in the end I never really felt that it was a big enough deal to actually do it. I think if one is frugal, like me, it certainly is worth just trying everything as is and upgrading those things that one really needs (or wants) no different than the kit itself, some items really "need" to be replaced/upgraded and many don't, others are fine as it is even though some have upgraded. My examples would focus around the landing gear; axle, extension, wheel, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Mauledriver Watson" <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 7:20 AM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: Most complete tool kit
> I have the red one and not sure the teasing capability is very good, so
> the Chicago sounds great. Keyless chuck? Can't imagine being without it.
>
> Kelly McMullen wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>>
>> IMHO, your best deal on a drill is from Avery. The Chicago Pneumatic
>> is compact, light, and has a very nice touch teasing trigger, for
>> $125, or $155 with reversing. Sure a keyless chuck is nice, but is it
>> worth an extra $70? Maybe Avery would make a deal combining the two.
>>
| Quote: | > Luis Rodriguez wrote:
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
|
>>>
>>> Score:
>>>
>>> Ischam 3
>>> Avery. 1
>>> Custom 2
>>>
>>> Thank you for the responses so far!!!
>>>
>>> I'll definetly add the hole punch, extra clecos, extra scotchbrite
>>> wheels, and a drdt2.
>>>
>>> I'll eBay the air drill and pneumatic sqeezer.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>
>>> On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:56 PM, Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Luis Rodriguez <luis(at)cristabelle.net (luis(at)cristabelle.net)>
>>>>
>>>> Which tool kit is the most complete/best to order for the -10.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
| Quote: | Get Some the Annual Contribution link Terrific Free www.aeroelectric.com
> HomebuiltHELP Contribution Web bsp; ===========
|
> RV10-List Email browse
> Photoshare, and much ===========
> bsp; via the ===========
>
>
>
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