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Back up Fuel Pump
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harley(at)siriusconinc.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

this is from Vadim (a ten year Yak-52  instructor from the Ukraine) 

  

 "It is possible to pressurize the fuel line right before carburetor using  primer as plunger pump. In this situation continues pressure will be supported  by small sphere tank which is located on fire wall if I am not mistaken. The  procedure was clearly described in Russian AFM as emergency procedure. As  Russian AFMs "written by blood" it worth to trust them. Personally I have never  had practical experience with described above procedures but again all this  according to AFM."

  

  

 ---

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

This procedure works great for extending your glide.  Remember when trying to use the plunger as a emergency fuel pump to lower your MP to only keep your altitude if possible.  The higher the power setting the faster you pump.  Of course all of this is going on all at the same time.

The sphear only hold about 30 seconds of fuel when it's under pressure and since it's a pressure carb nothing is going to happen without the pressure to get the fuel up to the ball from the tank and back down to the carb.

captaindonhopkin(at)aol.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: Back up Fuel pump

Hi,

 

 Thanks to all with great suggestions, pics and recommendations on how to tackle our install. I received lots of input both on the blog and to my email.  Like to give a big shout out to Dennis and Dale with some great comments and pics.  I'll let everyone know who the install went and the results later.  At the moment still in the islands on charter.  Hope to get to get back to the hanger the first weekend or so in January and see how it goes 

  

 

 Don

 

   

 

  Captain Don Hopkin

 N6868Y

 myscottfree.com : Web site

   [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Vadim and Mark,  

I have personal knowledge of a CFI in the YAK here in the US doing just that to get himself and his student down at an airport north of Dallas, Tx. at night none the less. This happened in the past couple of years. As I remember it was a fuel pump failure that caused the incident. He flew the plane while the student in the front seat pumped the primer to keep the engine running. He said in expected fashion it burped along but was able to hold altitude until they could make the airport.  

As stated, that is in the Russian manual under emergency procedures for loss of fuel pressure.  

Doc Kemp       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of harley(at)siriusconinc.com

 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:25 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump  

  

  

     

this is from Vadim (a ten year Yak-52 instructor from the Ukraine)   

    

   

    

"It is possible to pressurize the fuel line right before carburetor using primer as plunger pump. In this situation continues pressure will be supported by small sphere tank which is located on fire wall if I am not mistaken. The procedure was clearly described in Russian AFM as emergency procedure. As Russian AFMs "written by blood" it worth to trust them. Personally I have never had practical experience with described above procedures but again all this according to AFM."  

    

   

    

   

    

---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

I think we are talking apples and oranges.  

  

 No big deal.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 

--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net>

Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 7:46 PM



 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Dale" <hdinamic(at)qwest.net (hdinamic(at)qwest.net)>



In the event of a total failure the engine driven pump has much larger lines feeding the bubbler and the would cause the Facet  to act like a pressure relief valve to the extent of the leak or bypass which would need to be a total failure and them I don't see how all the fuel would bypass.  The pump should not cavatate any more than a fuel pressure relief in a Duke pump or a Weldon with pressure relief.  This is how Aerostar installs it in the Yak.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279155#27915=     * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.comonics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contributi;               -Matt Dralle, List Adminnbsp; --> 



	
 [quote][b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:46 am Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Dale, let me be clear.  

  

 I don't care if a person puts 5 Facet pumps in parallel or 15 in series, with 10 zillion check valves along the way.  I was discussing the pro's and con's involving design premises. 

  

 I never knocked either design idea. 

  

 Let me be clear about something else.   To me flying is not about "saving money".  I don't go out and look for the cheapest possible solution that will work.  I mentioned that the Facet pump was good.  The Weldon pump is a lot better.  It's a certified aircraft fuel pump, the Facet is not.  The Weldon has the capability of handling the full fuel flow of an M-14PF.  The Facet does not.  

  

 That said, I would not hesitate to put a Facet pump in as a backup system, IN PARALLEL (as you have suggested) ok?  Anything is better than nothing, and the Facet pump with a parallel design is clearly better than sitting there pumping away at what is currently there to keep you from crashing.  

  

 I have the Weldon pump installed in series in my UTVA-66 that flows 52 gallons per hour at takeoff power (the Facet can't handle that Dale), and I like the fact that it is an easy install with less fittings and hoses than a parallel design and uses an aircraft certified pump.  

  

 I am not trying to say "my way is the better way".  On the same token I don't believe the Facet pump with a parallel hose design is "better" either.  Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.  

  

 Have a nice day. 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

  



--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net>

Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 8:03 PM



 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Dale" <hdinamic(at)qwest.net (hdinamic(at)qwest.net)>



I forgot to add that with the parallel system and the Facet you have enough room that you can put in 6 check valves downstream of the boost pump if you think the one in pump might fail for all the money you save buying the Weldon and still retain you original system without messing with the primary line.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279161#279161

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Li   --> 



	
 [quote][b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:48 am Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

The saying: "Busier than a one armed paper hanger" comes to mind Doc.  

  

 If an engine has ignition and you feed it fuel, it should run.  How much horsepower will be developed, how many gallons per hour you can output with that hand primer pump. what the conditions are at the time, how many people are in the aircraft, etc., etc., etc., all play a part in a situation like this.  Unhook that primer pump fuel line and let's see how many gallons per hour YOU can make that thing put out OK?  

  

 Doc, I have personal knowledge of an F-4 Phantom that took off from an aircraft carrier with the wings folded, and was able to bingo it safely.  I have personal knowledge of an A-6E that ripped off 7 feet of wing hitting a tower guy wire in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm and also landed safely.  In fact I am sure you have various "war stories" that you can tell as well... all of them true, all of them darn well amazing, and a lot of them unlikely to ever be duplicated.  

  

 There is no question that the primer plunger pump will make the engine run.  Sort of.  Maybe.  If you're lucky.  And if you make it back safety you can brag about it!  

  

 However, an electric pump, in series OR parallel (Facet OR Weldon) would work a hell of a lot better and would be something I would feel a lot better betting my life on.  

  

 Of course you wear a chute.  I don't.      

  

 Mark

  

  

 



--- On Wed, 12/30/09, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

Subject: RE: Back up Fuel Pump

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 11:10 PM



       

Vadim and Mark,

 

I have personal knowledge of a CFI in the YAK here in the US doing just that to get himself and his student down at an airport north of Dallas, Tx. at night none the less. This happened in the past couple of years. As I remember it was a fuel pump failure that caused the incident. He flew the plane while the student in the front seat pumped the primer to keep the engine running. He said in expected fashion it burped along but was able to hold altitude until they could make the airport.

 

As stated, that is in the Russian manual under emergency procedures for loss of fuel pressure.

 

Doc Kemp 

   

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of harley(at)siriusconinc.com

Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:25 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

 

 

  

this is from Vadim (a ten year Yak-52 instructor from the Ukraine) 



  

 



  

"It is possible to pressurize the fuel line right before carburetor using primer as plunger pump. In this situation continues pressure will be supported by small sphere tank which is located on fire wall if I am not mistaken. The procedure was clearly described in Russian AFM as emergency procedure. As Russian AFMs "written by blood" it worth to trust them. Personally I have never had practical experience with described above procedures but again all this according to AFM."



  

 



  

 



  

---

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:48 am Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Go get 'em.

On Jan 1, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Yak Pilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I think we are talking apples and oranges.  

  

 No big deal.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 

--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net (hdinamic(at)qwest.net)> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net (hdinamic(at)qwest.net)>

Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 7:46 PM



 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Dale" <hdinamic(at)qwest.net (hdinamic(at)qwest.net)>



In the event of a total failure the engine driven pump has much larger lines feeding the bubbler and the would cause the Facet  to act like a pressure relief valve to the extent of the leak or bypass which would need to be a total failure and them I don't see how all the fuel would bypass.  The pump should not cavatate any more than a fuel pressure relief in a Duke pump or a Weldon with pressure relief.  This is how Aerostar installs it in the Yak.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279155#27915=     * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.comonics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contributi;               -Matt Dralle, List Adminnbsp; --> 



[/url] 	
[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List]  	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Happy New Year to all

  

 Hi Mark;

  

 Interesting subject:  I am totally in  agreement with your comments and am currently considering the options  for that installation in my CJ project.  

 The CJ uses a wobble type emerg. pump which, unlike  the Yak installation, is quite adequate for the purpose provided it is in good  condition.  However, as noted by a previous post, it's only control handle  is located such that the pump is virtually useless.

 Unlike the Harvard/T6, which has a wobble pump  of identical capacity wirh control from the LH side in BOTH cockpits, the CJ is  RH and front only.  Completely unacceptable in my opinion particularly in  the event of fuel pump failure after take-off.  Not a hope!

  

 I have modified the Harvard/T6 system utilizing the  AN standard aux. fuel pump (which consists of a standard vane type (AN 4100  series) engine driven pump but driven by a special electric motor). This of  course is a certificated aircraft and the installation must be  approved.

 In this case the aux. pump is installed in series  with the engine driven pump since these pumps have an internal bypass capacity  capable of handling the maximum flow.  This takes care of the after  take-off scenario even though the wobble pump may save your ass in the  Harvard.  It sure as hell won't in the CJ. 

 The wobble pump is left intact since it is a  totally parallel system and is still available in the very unlikely event  of both vane pumps failing.

  

 For the CJ I am considering replacement of the  wobble pump.  This is a parallel installation but only to the engine driven  pump (which, therefore, must have an internal bypass) rather than directly to  the carburettor.  In this instance the aux. pump will not require an  internal bypass.  At this stage I still have not determined which pump to  use.  The AN type described above is rather large and heavy so I need  something smaller but it difinetely will not be a Facet type.  It will  be a type certified vane pump possibly Weldon or Parker  Airborne.

  

 Just received your email while writing this.   That's good, I thought it may not arrive until next week.

  

 Cheers;

 Walt  

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		     From:    Yak Pilot (yakplt(at)yahoo.com) 

   To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 10:58    AM

   Subject: Re: Re: Back up Fuel    Pump

   



                             Dale, let me be clear.  

          

         I don't care if a person puts 5 Facet pumps in parallel or 15 in          series, with 10 zillion check valves along the way.  I was          discussing the pro's and con's involving design premises. 

          

         I never knocked either design idea. 

          

         Let me be clear about something else.   To me flying is          not about "saving money".  I don't go out and look for the cheapest          possible solution that will work.  I mentioned that the Facet          pump was good.  The Weldon pump is a lot better.  It's a          certified aircraft fuel pump, the Facet is not.  The Weldon has the          capability of handling the full fuel flow of an M-14PF.  The Facet          does not.  

          

         That said, I would not hesitate to put a Facet pump in as a backup          system, IN PARALLEL (as you have suggested) ok?  Anything is better          than nothing, and the Facet pump with a parallel design is clearly          better than sitting there pumping away at what is currently there to          keep you from crashing.  

          

         I have the Weldon pump installed in series in my UTVA-66 that          flows 52 gallons per hour at takeoff power (the Facet can't handle          that Dale), and I like the fact that it is an easy install with less          fittings and hoses than a parallel design and uses an aircraft          certified pump.  

          

         I am not trying to say "my way is the better way".  On the          same token I don't believe the Facet pump with a parallel hose design is          "better" either.  Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.           

          

         Have a nice day. 

          

         Mark Bitterlich

         



--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale          <hdinamic(at)qwest.net> wrote:



          	  Quote: 	
		  

From:            Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net>

Subject: Re: Back up Fuel            Pump

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 29,            2009, 8:03 PM



           --> Yak-List message posted by: "Dale" <hdinamic(at)qwest.net (hdinamic(at)qwest.net)>



I            forgot to add that with the parallel system and the Facet you have            enough room that you can put in 6 check valves downstream of the boost            pump if you think the one in pump might fail for all the money you            save buying the Weldon and still retain you original system without            messing with the primary line.





Read this topic            online here:



[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79161#279161]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79161#279161[/url]

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Li   -->            



	
 	  Quote:

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Happy New Year Mark,  

No argument from me. Yep, I have already made my decision. If I have enough altitude for a safe chute I’m stepping over the side. It is a personal decision that I have made before I leave the ground. Yes I will try to save the plane but not to the point of pushing myself into a square corner without the option of the silk let down. No we do not have zero zero seats either, I know.  

I agree to keep the engine running you are busier than a one armed paper hanger in blizzard. Had to change my fuel pump out due to a leak in the seal between the oil pump and the fuel pump. Anyway after changing out the pump had no fuel pressure after starting the 52. It took a lot of stroking of the plunger on the cylinder side to keep the engine running until I figure out that I had zero system pressure. That was on the ground, I could not imagine what it would take in the air. Hope it does not happen and yes I have thought of installing a Weldon pump along with the smoke tank along with the second Dynon along with the fuel bladders in the 52 along with replacing the canopy glass on the 50 along with the putting the spring and bushings mod in the tail wheel shock absorber on the 50, along with installing the CJ air system filter from Doug Sapp on the 50 along with…ect…ect… The problem is there are so many things that I want to do but time is an issue.   

If anyone finds the 3 ½ tall Russian with 12 inch fingers, please send me his contact numbers. I have some projects for him like changing out the bungie cord on the front canopy pulley cable on the 52. The Russians have to have a supply of those little buggers stashed away somewhere.  

Yep got a few of those I have personal knowledge of stories also. A Viper coming home from Camden Ridge MOA with 2 feet of the right wing missing after an encounter with a guy wire on a radio tower.  To name a few.   

The electric fuel pump is not a bad idea but since I’ve not taken the time to figure out what the fuel flow that is needed to make the electric pump work for the M-14 that has been a project left untouched.   

Happy New Year. So many projects with so little time.  

ChK 6  

Doc  

   

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 1:17 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Back up Fuel Pump  

  

              

The saying: "Busier than a one armed paper   hanger" comes to mind Doc.     

      

    

      

If an engine has ignition and you feed it fuel, it should   run.  How much horsepower will be developed, how many gallons per hour   you can output with that hand primer pump. what the conditions are at the   time, how many people are in the aircraft, etc., etc., etc., all play a part   in a situation like this.  Unhook that primer pump fuel line and let's   see how many gallons per hour YOU can make that thing put out OK?     

      

    

      

Doc, I have personal knowledge of an F-4 Phantom that took   off from an aircraft carrier with the wings folded, and was able to bingo   it safely.  I have personal knowledge of an A-6E that ripped off 7 feet   of wing hitting a tower guy wire in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm and also   landed safely.  In fact I am sure you have various "war   stories" that you can tell as well... all of them true, all of them darn   well amazing, and a lot of them unlikely to ever be duplicated.     

      

    

      

There is no question that the primer plunger pump will   make the engine run.  Sort of.  Maybe.  If you're lucky.    And if you make it back safety you can brag about it!     

      

    

      

However, an electric pump, in series OR parallel (Facet OR   Weldon) would work a hell of a lot better and would be something I would feel   a lot better betting my life on.     

      

    

      

Of course you wear a chute.  I   don't.         

      

    

      

Mark   

      

    

      

    

      



   

   --- On Wed, 12/30/09, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>   wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     



   From: Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

   Subject: RE: Back up Fuel Pump

   To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 11:10 PM         

Vadim   and Mark,   

   

I   have personal knowledge of a CFI in the YAK here in the US doing just that to   get himself and his student down at an airport north of Dallas, Tx. at night   none the less. This happened in the past couple of years. As I remember it   was a fuel pump failure that caused the incident. He flew the plane while the   student in the front seat pumped the primer to keep the engine running. He   said in expected fashion it burped along but was able to hold altitude until   they could make the airport.   

   

As   stated, that is in the Russian manual under emergency procedures for loss of   fuel pressure.   	
   

Doc   Kemp          

From:   owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com   [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of harley(at)siriusconinc.com

   Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:25 AM

   To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

   Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump   

   

   

       

this is   from Vadim (a ten year Yak-52 instructor from the Ukraine)    

      

    

      

"It   is possible to pressurize the fuel line right before carburetor using primer   as plunger pump. In this situation continues pressure will be supported by   small sphere tank which is located on fire wall if I am not mistaken. The   procedure was clearly described in Russian AFM as emergency procedure. As   Russian AFMs "written by blood" it worth to trust them. Personally   I have never had practical experience with described above procedures but   again all this according to AFM."   

      

    

      

    

      

-----   Original Message -----    

    	  Quote: 	
		        

From: Yak   Pilot    

   	
      

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com      

      

Sent: Tuesday, December   29, 2009 6:18 PM   

      

Subject: Re: Back   up Fuel Pump   

      

    

                      

      

          

Question: What's wrong with the manual backup pump?       

          

Answer:  There isn't one.       

          

      

          

There is a manual priming pump.  This same manual pump can also     be used to put some initial head pressure to the engine driven pump     (system).       

          

      

          

However, using this pump to keep the engine going if the engine     driven mechanical pump fails (a geared pump) is highly unlikely.  Yes,     it could be used to stretch a glide, etc., etc., but you are going to be     one busy bee trying to pull that thing in and out fast enough to keep the engine     actually running.  I think a good way to describe trying to do that     would be best said as using the plunger pump to carry the     aircraft to the scene of the accident.       

          

      

          

There are indeed stories of people that have claimed to have actually     pulled this off, but honestly.... I have my doubts.  That plunger pump     is is not a continuous pressure pump and at best you are going to get quick     "shots" of power as you pump the crap out of this thing.       

          

      

          

An electric pump would indeed meet the definition of a "backup     fuel pump" while also being a very cool tool for priming.        

          

      

          

Mark Bitterlich     

          



     

     --- On Mon, 12/28/09, harley(at)siriusconinc.com <harley(at)siriusconinc.com>     wrote:     

      	  Quote: 	
		       



     From: harley(at)siriusconinc.com <harley(at)siriusconinc.com>

     Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

     To: yak-list(at)matronics.com, captaindonhopkin(at)aol.com

     Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 4:38 PM     	
               

what's     wrong with the manual back-up pump?     

     

          

      

          

Martin     

          

      

          

      

      	  Quote: 	
		            

-----     Original Message -----      

     	
          

From: captaindonhopkin(at)aol.com      

          

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com          

          

Sent: Monday, December     28, 2009 3:26 PM     

          

Subject: **SPAM**     Back up Fuel Pump     

          

      

          

Hi gang,

     

     I believe this subject was discussed sometime ago, but I can't find the     digest link for it.  We'd like to add a back up electric fuel pump in     my Yak 52.  Does anyone has schematics, drawings, photos or any     suggestions they'd like to share?  Thanking you all in advance.      Ciao.

     

     Don     

          

      

          

Captain     Don Hopkin

     N6868Y     

                	  Quote: 	
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       [quote][b]

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

Barry:



In your kit, what pump do you use?



Do you remove the wobble pump and primer?



Do you remove fuel lines in the cockpit?



How many flight hours do you have on this system?



Is the pump output pressure adjusted to match what the engine expects if used as a fuel pump in case of primary pump failure? (not enough pressure and the engine quits anyway...too much and it may flood)



Do you bypass the primary, gear-driven pump?



I know you are trying to avoid "selling" stuff on the list, but this info would be helpful to the community.



Craig

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

Mark B



contact me off line:



keith(at)mckinley.us

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