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ADF Radio Compass
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BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: ADF Radio Compass

      

Tim Gagnon said:  

"Sometimes you have to handle all three alone!"   

Brilliant. 

  

Please don't talk about dropping the soap.     

mgb

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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: ADF Radio Compass

Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Speaking of Loran A  ....   er, ah .. now Loran C.   I heard that the 

 FAA was thinking of putting more emphasis on Loran C and were planning 

 on sinking "serious" money into the system upgrading it.  The idea being 

 that us airplane folks would then soon be offered an actual Loran-C // 

 GPS Nav Aid... both in one box.  Kind of like an Embedded GPS Inertial 

 NAV system, this thing would use a KALMAN filter to blend GPS L1 signals 

 with Loran-C thus creating a system with accuracy approaching or even 

 exceeding GPS WAAIS, or at least... that's what is being claimed.

 

 Anyone else heard this rumor?


	


Yes. It is the new system that the Europeans are fielding. They are 

transmitting the WAAS differential data on the LORAN chains instead of 

sending it from the satellites. The advantage of this system is that, 

while it is very easy to jam GPS, it is almost impossible to jam LORAN. 

Also, the kind of interference that affects LORAN has no affect on GPS 

and vice-versa. If the GPS part fails for whatever reason, the LORAN 

part will still provide usable area navigation and accuracy suitable for 

nonprecision approaches.



Why didn't we think of that.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:48 am Post subject: ADF Radio Compass

For one... Loran doesn't work well in rain (IFR) approaches!

---

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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: ADF Radio Compass

cgalley wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 For one... Loran doesn't work well in rain (IFR) approaches!


	


I have flown many a VOR or NDB approach using LORAN as my "backup", in 

both rain and snow. It worked almost all the time. The only time I 

remember completely losing my LORAN to p-static was over the mid 

Atlantic in a dry snowstorm. The p-static was so fierce it took out 

every radio in the airplane including the comms. (This was pre GPS so I 

don't know if I would have lost the GPS too.)



That is why the GPS/LORAN combination is so powerful. They complement 

each other.



LORAN can be prone to failure due to precipitation static (p-static). 

GPS isn't. GPS is very susceptible to jamming. LORAN isn't.



BTW, if you use an H-field antenna (usually some kind of loop) instead 

of an E-field antenna (usually a whip) you eliminate most of LORAN-C's 

sensitivity to p-static. If we start using LORAN to backup GPS as the 

Europeans are doing, expect to see more H-field antennas.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: ADF Radio Compass

That is why the system incorporates a KALMAN filter.    

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK   

P.S.  Basically a KALMAN filter is a piece of software that takes all inputs and develops a smoothed output.  It considers everything about the conditions of the aircraft and the flight and then "decides" how to best BLEND all the inputs for the best possible output.  If one input happens to go away for a certain period of time, it follows the last and best blended solution to still give better short term accuracy than just relying on a stand alone single input.  So if you were to lose EITHER GPS or LORAN input, it would still offer better accuracy than either in a stand alone basis.    

Loran-C works at about 90-110 Khz.  It will exhibit all the normal propagation characteristics of a 100 Khz signal.  GPS L1 is at 1565 Mhz and is about -169 dbw down using a spread spectrum technique.  L2 is at 1265 Mhz and is about -166 dbw down.  These are extremely weak signals.   Loran on the other hand is pretty darn strong, their transmitters usually having an output power between 100 KW and 4000 KW, that's 4,000,000,000 watts.. and that is a WHOLE BUNCH.  Either signal can be lost under certain conditions, but typically those conditions are NOT synonymous.    

P.P.S.  Brian, I think you were talking about Eurofix.  I think I was talking about LORAN LDC, and hey... we DID think of that!    

  

--

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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: ADF Radio Compass

Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   P.P.S.  Brian, I think you were talking about Eurofix.  I think I was 

 talking about LORAN LDC, and hey... we DID think of that!  


	


But they are doing it and we aren't. Instead the FAA wants to put all 

our eggs in one GPS basket with no effective backup. And I have held the 

little Russian GPS jammer in my hand. Nice little box. You used to be 

able to buy them for $4000.



Wait for about 10 years for them to kill VOR and LORAN navigation then 

park yourself up on Mount Wilson with it and eliminate GPS service in 

the greater LA basin. Wait until rush hour during a winter storm and 

have yourself a ball. When it happens remember to give me credit for 

predicting it.



And there is no way anyone could even hope to build a LORAN jammer. It 

would have to be the size of a skyscraper.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: ADF Radio Compass

 	  brian wrote: 	
		  Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   P.P.S.  Brian, I think you were talking about Eurofix.  I think I was 

 talking about LORAN LDC, and hey... we DID think of that!  



	


But they are doing it and we aren't. Instead the FAA wants to put all 

our eggs in one GPS basket with no effective backup. And I have held the 

little Russian GPS jammer in my hand. Nice little box. You used to be 

able to buy them for $4000.



Wait for about 10 years for them to kill VOR and LORAN navigation then 

park yourself up on Mount Wilson with it and eliminate GPS service in 

the greater LA basin. Wait until rush hour during a winter storm and 

have yourself a ball. When it happens remember to give me credit for 

predicting it.



And there is no way anyone could even hope to build a LORAN jammer. It 

would have to be the size of a skyscraper.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery 	




There is always dead reckoning and pilotage...but who knows how to do that anymore?

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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: ADF Radio Compass

Tim Gagnon wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   There is always dead reckoning and pilotage...but who knows how to do that anymore?


	


I doubt that most pilots would be prepared to transition to DR while on 

the gauges when all their other nav went out.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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