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Loman
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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 Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: Through-panel ATO fuses |
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I am intent on imitating the RV12 setup where ATO fuses protrude through the panel, like this:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/images/RV-12/N412RV/switch_fuse.jpg
I found fuseholders that can be panel-mounted close together. I actually bought some. They cost very little and they look great.
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/155ATOPanel.pdf
I am using the separate components on the lower half of this datasheet, so that I can crimp in my own wire and be sure it is tefzel of the correct size.
I can cram 19 of these into a space 1 in wide by 8 in tall, with labels alongside
Two questions:
A) can anybody be a devil's advocate and offer a compelling argument against this scheme?
B) One downside is that the feed side of each fuse holder needs to be separately wired back to the appropriate bus. Can anybody suggest an approach to achieve this or a fitting or material from which the three buses could be made up?
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_________________
Loman O'Byrne
RV-9 builder: Emp Done, Wings Done, Fuse underway
Dublin, Ireland |
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peterlaurence6(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:27 am Post subject: Through-panel ATO fuses |
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Check this site. http://home.earthlink.net/~dswartzendruber/
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Loman <loman(at)o2.ie (loman(at)o2.ie)> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Loman" <loman(at)o2.ie (loman(at)o2.ie)>
I am intent on imitating the RV12 setup where ATO fuses protrude through the panel, like this:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/images/RV-12/N412RV/switch_fuse.jpg
I found fuseholders that can be panel-mounted close together. I actually bought some. They cost very little and they look great.
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/155ATOPanel.pdf
I am using the separate components on the lower half of this datasheet, so that I can crimp in my own wire and be sure it is tefzel of the correct size.
I can cram 19 of these into a space 1 in wide by 8 in tall, with labels alongside
Two questions:
A) can anybody be a devil's advocate and offer a compelling argument against this scheme?
B) One downside is that the feed side of each fuse holder needs to be separately wired back to the appropriate bus. Can anybody suggest an approach to achieve this or a fitting or material from which the three buses could be made up?
--------
Loman O'Byrne
RV-9 builder: Emp Done, Wings Done, Fuse underway
Dublin, Ireland
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281655#281655
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mprather(at)spro.net
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:52 am Post subject: Through-panel ATO fuses |
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Unrelated to your question.. Is the depicted panel through which the
fuses protrude metal? It would seem that it might be quite easy to short
one leg of the fuse between the (grounded?) panel and the feeder. Maybe
the geometry doesn't allow it, but I would make sure that there is no way
for a short to happen there.
I like the look. Very slick.
As has been discussed at length recently, mounting the fuses in the panel
pretty much means that you also have to provide the pilot with replacement
fuses, or demonstrate to the DAR that none of the fuses are critical to
continued flight. It also means that should someone suffer an electrical
malfunction (which might or might not be related to an opened fuse), they
may spend time diagnosing the problem in flight instead of flying the
airplane - increasing risk.
To hijack the topic a bit further I wonder if it might be fairly easy to
install a light source in (behind) the panel which would allow inspection
of the fuses more easy - directly illuminating the conducting element in
each fuse. No active notification, but at least you wouldn't have to pull
each fuse to find the blown one. And no circuitry interaction.
Regards,
Matt-
| Quote: |
I am intent on imitating the RV12 setup where ATO fuses protrude through
the panel, like this:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/images/RV-12/N412RV/switch_fuse.jpg
I found fuseholders that can be panel-mounted close together. I actually
bought some. They cost very little and they look great.
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/155ATOPanel.pdf
I am using the separate components on the lower half of this datasheet, so
that I can crimp in my own wire and be sure it is tefzel of the correct
size.
I can cram 19 of these into a space 1 in wide by 8 in tall, with labels
alongside
Two questions:
A) can anybody be a devil's advocate and offer a compelling argument
against this scheme?
B) One downside is that the feed side of each fuse holder needs to be
separately wired back to the appropriate bus. Can anybody suggest an
approach to achieve this or a fitting or material from which the three
buses could be made up?
--------
Loman O'Byrne
RV-9 builder: Emp Done, Wings Done, Fuse underway
Dublin, Ireland
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 81655#281655
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a.f.rupp(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: Through-panel ATO fuses |
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Use a Waytek fuse that has a LED that lights up when it blows. It looks like the picture has them installed.
Al Rupp
Lake Placid
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------------- Original message from "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>: --------------
| Quote: |
>
As has been discussed at length recently, mounting the fuses in the panel
pretty much means that you also have to provide the pilot with replacement
fuses, or demonstrate to the DAR that none of the fuses are critical to
continued flight. It also means that should someone suffer an electrical
malfunction (which might or might not be related to an opened fuse), they
may spend time diagnosing the problem in flight instead of flying the
airplane - increasing risk.
To hijack the topic a bit further I wonder if it might be fairly easy to
install a light source in (behind) the panel which would allow inspection
of the fuses more easy - directly illuminating the conducting element in
each fuse. No active notification, but at least you wouldn't have to pull
each fuse to find the blown one. And no circuitry interaction.
Regards,
Matt-
|
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mprather(at)spro.net
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: Through-panel ATO fuses |
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It's probably not a big deal, but as I said, I'm interested in not having
monitoring circuitry interact with the circuit protection in any way. I
admit the Wayteks appear to be pretty slick.
Regards,
Matt-
| Quote: |
Use a Waytek fuse that has a LED that lights up when it blows. It looks
like the picture has them installed.
Al Rupp
Lake Placid
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------------- Original message from "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>:
--------------
>
> >
> As has been discussed at length recently, mounting the fuses in the
> panel
> pretty much means that you also have to provide the pilot with
> replacement
> fuses, or demonstrate to the DAR that none of the fuses are critical to
> continued flight. It also means that should someone suffer an
> electrical
> malfunction (which might or might not be related to an opened fuse),
> they
> may spend time diagnosing the problem in flight instead of flying the
> airplane - increasing risk.
>
> To hijack the topic a bit further I wonder if it might be fairly easy to
> install a light source in (behind) the panel which would allow
> inspection
> of the fuses more easy - directly illuminating the conducting element in
> each fuse. No active notification, but at least you wouldn't have to
> pull
> each fuse to find the blown one. And no circuitry interaction.
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
>
>
|
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:46 am Post subject: Through-panel ATO fuses |
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1/16/2010
Hello Matt, You wrote: "As has been discussed at length recently, mounting
the fuses in the panel
pretty much means that you also have to provide the pilot with replacement
fuses, or demonstrate to the DAR that none of the fuses are critical to
continued flight."
If the aircraft is to be flown at night or IFR I don't understand how a
decision by a DAR (documented or undocumented) could override the required
wording in the aircraft's Operating Limitations and the resulting applicable
wording in 14 CFR 91.205.
| Quote: | From the Operating Limitations:
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"After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped
for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft
is to be operated under VFR, day only."
| Quote: | From 14 CFR 91.205
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"(c) Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following
instruments and equipment are required:
(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that
are accessible to the pilot in flight."
and
"(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and
equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section,
and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c)
of this section."
The requirement regarding placement of fuses and circuit breakers
"..essential to safety in flight.." comes from 14 CFR 23 which provides the
airworthiness standards for type certificated aircraft.
14 CFR 23.1357 Circuit protective devices reads:
"(d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is
essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so
located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight."
and
"(e) For fuses identified as replaceable in flight-
(1) There must be one spare of each rating or 50 percent spare fuses of each
rating, whichever is greater; and
(2) The spare fuse(s) must be readily accessible to any required pilot."
14 CFR 23 does not apply to experimental amateur built aircraft.
I conclude that if an experimental amateur built aircraft has ANY of the
fuses installed in ANY of its electrical systems accessible to the pilot in
flight then the pilot must carry the 91.205 regulatory required spare fuses.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
========================================================
Time: 10:52:50 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Through-panel ATO fuses
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Unrelated to your question....... skip........
As has been discussed at length recently, mounting the fuses in the panel
pretty much means that you also have to provide the pilot with replacement
fuses, or demonstrate to the DAR that none of the fuses are critical to
continued flight. It also means that should someone suffer an electrical
malfunction (which might or might not be related to an opened fuse), they
may spend time diagnosing the problem in flight instead of flying the
airplane - increasing risk.
.................... skip.................
Regards,
Matt-
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rockyjs
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Through-panel ATO fuses |
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I was also interested in placing some fuses through the panel. In searching I found these. You would have to manufacture a stand off, but I like the compactness. I also attempted to find the ones used in the RV-12 and was told it was proprietary.
http://www.delcity.net/store/8!way-fuse-block/p_10823.a_1
Rocky
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Loman
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Through-panel ATO fuses |
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Thanks for the input folks.
That is an interesting point about the possibility of shorting. I will have to experiment but initial thoughts are that the fuseholders should be mounted on a stand-off that is far enough behind the panel so that the metal blades have cleared the back of the panel before they can contact their clasps in the fuseholder. In other words only the plastic body of the fuse can touch the panel when the fuse is in contact with any live component. I don't know but maybe this is how Vans does it.
The Bussman product looks very good but I want a narrow, tall compact arrangement of fuses to suit the intended space on my panel. 19 fuses in a 1 in wide by 8 in tall is more compact than any I have seen.
The fuses themselves will indeed have LEDS to clearly indicate failure and I have three of the 19 slots available for spares. However, I am of the view that reseting breakers or replacing fuses are probably equally pointless. I can't see how fuses would be any more or less distracting than a tripped breaker or any other circuit protection device. The benefit of having them visible as opposed to sitting on a fuseholder somewhere behind the panel where you can neither see or touch them is largely better information - not the option to reset/replace them.
I should also say that, building in Ireland, I am not subject to the same regs as most of you.
Rocky, that link doesn't work. Could you try again as I would like to see the part you are referencing.
How about my second question guys? I still can't figure out what I am going to connect those feed wires back to. I thought of using the brass bar with fast-on tabs that Stein sells as a ground bus (SA-9900), but I would have to fabricate an insulated mounting arrangement for each of the three busses - no biggie I suppose but maybe someone has a better idea?
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_________________
Loman O'Byrne
RV-9 builder: Emp Done, Wings Done, Fuse underway
Dublin, Ireland |
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jonlaury
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:27 am Post subject: Through-panel ATO fuses |
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Loman,
I am doing a fuse panel that is visible in the cockpit. One stack is about 6" x 16 fuses. I am running the wires from the fuse holders to two (main and E-bus) bus bars made from vice-squashed 3/8 soft copper tube with 3, .250" x 6 gang brass quick-connect tabs soldered to them, yielding 18 tabs, expandable to 36 by using male/female quick-connects. These are then SS riveted to a hat-shaped non conductive fiberglass stand-off channel and bonded to the side of my glass airplane behind the panel. You could screw or rivet to aluminum in your plane.
Using http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/155_153PCMount.pdf
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=A27874-ND (also in 8,10, 20 tab)
John
[quote][b]
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