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albertakolbmk3
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 69
Location: Innisfail, AB
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 Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:21 am Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Your opinions would be appreciated.
The original owner had a valve to switch between tanks I want to eliminate that. Also, with it set up like this do I still need to use the primer bulb he has installed. I have remote chokes. Just trying to work on the KISS principal.
Tony
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_________________
Tony B.
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop |
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:45 am Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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At 01:21 PM 1/20/2010, albertakolbmk3 wrote:
| Quote: | | The original owner had a valve to switch between tanks I want to eliminate that. Also, with it set up like this do I still need to use the primer bulb he has installed. I have remote chokes. Just trying to work on the KISS principal. |
If you have a battery to run the electric fuel pump, or if you have a primer, then you don't need a squeeze bulb (primer bulbs are evil).
If you have oil injection on your 582, then I don't see the need for a fuel selector valve. If you use premix, valves important if you ever mix right in the fuel tank; you don't want any crossflow until the oil is thoroughly mixed. I like individual on/off valves for each tank; normally you fly with both open but you can shut one off if there's a reason to.
-Dana
--
I'm from the IRS. The government has spent all your tax money. Could we please have some more? [quote][b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:00 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Tony, I plumbed my fuel system with stock plastic tanks and top taps. There is no balance line between the tanks so I run a selector valve. I have the fuel gauge sender in the tank behind me since I cannot see it in flight. I run off the left tank first until it's down to a gallon or so, then switch to the right tank with the gauge. For what it's worth.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 12:21 PM, albertakolbmk3 <cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com (cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "albertakolbmk3" <cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com (cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com)>
Your opinions would be appreciated.
The original owner had a valve to switch between tanks I want to eliminate that. Also, with it set up like this do I still need to use the primer bulb he has installed. I have remote chokes. Just trying to work on the KISS principal.
Tony
--------
Tony B.
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Tony,
I have a 2 tank firestar 2. I have never liked the top draw system, I am NOT trying to say there is something wrong with it , or that any one should change it, just that I
personally don't like it. At my auto store I found an all metal tire valve that is made similar to a through bulkhead fitting. I removed the [guts] , made a gasket of silicone ,cut a hole
in the bottom of each tank and mounted the valves. I connected the valves together with tubing , and with a tee between them , then connected the tee to the facet pump [it is also is lower than
the tanks]. The fuel level in both tanks stays the same and all but about a quart of fuel is usable, assuming I can keep the plane level. No on off valves in the entire sys.
Once again ,taking a page from John Hs book I'm not suggesting that this is the way things should be done, only that this is how i did it. About 100 hrs on this sys. No problems.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
Brownsville , TX
On Jan 20, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote]Tony, I plumbed my fuel system with stock plastic tanks and top taps. There is no balance line between the tanks so I run a selector valve. I have the fuel gauge sender in the tank behind me since I cannot see it in flight. I run off the left tank first until it's down to a gallon or so, then switch to the right tank with the gauge. For what it's worth.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 12:21 PM, albertakolbmk3 <cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com (cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com)> wrote:
[b]
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:48 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Frank C
I like the description of your fuel system. Your's sounds very similar to mine.
One minor difference between our systems is I have a petcock at the lowest point of the tubing C to allow for a quick drain of moisture in the fuel
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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At 06:51 PM 1/20/2010, frank.goodnight wrote:
| Quote: | Tony,
I have a 2 tank firestar 2. I have never liked the top draw system, I am NOT trying to say there is something wrong with it , or that any one should change it, just that I
personally don't like it. At my auto store I found an all metal tire valve that is made similar to a through bulkhead fitting. I removed the [guts] , made a gasket of silicone ,cut a hole... |
Only problem I see is the silicone gasket... mixing silicone with gasoline is bad news.
-Dana
--
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got no clothes on - and are up to somethin'. [quote][b]
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Hi Mike ,
I don't have a moisture trap or drain. Have never had a water problem, apparently plastic tanks don't condense as much as metal tanks. I do keep the tanks
full most of the time. I plan to make a sump with drain some time in the future.[ before the trip to MV this spring] Should have already done it , lazy & too much procrastination . When I do, I think I will
tie in a loop of fuel line and bring it forward so it can be used as a sight gage. Too old and too fat to twist around and see how much fuel is left, I use a mirror but it is not the
best sys. Don't know anything about the electric fuel gages , they may be a better option.
FYI when I changed to the marine fuel tubing [alcohol resistant] I did trap the fuel & checked it , clean and dry. About 30 hrs ago. same small auto store fuel filter for about 100 hrs.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
Brownsville , TX
On Jan 20, 2010, at 6:42 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
[quote]Frank,
I like the description of your fuel system. Your's sounds very similar to mine.
One minor difference between our systems is I have a petcock at the lowest point of the tubing, to allow for a quick drain of moisture in the fuel.
You didn't mention that you can accomodate for moisture drainage. Do you have a way to drain off any water/crud in your fuel system?
Mike Welch
From: frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Fuel system layout
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:51:57 -0600
Tony,
I have a 2 tank firestar 2. I have never liked the top draw system, I am NOT trying to say there is something wrong with it , or that any one should change it, just that I
personally don't like it. At my auto store I found an all metal tire valve that is made similar to a through bulkhead fitting. I removed the [guts] , made a gasket of silicone ,cut a hole
in the bottom of each tank and mounted the valves. I connected the valves together with tubing , and with a tee between them , then connected the tee to the facet pump [it is also is lower than
the tanks]. The fuel level in both tanks stays the same and all but about a quart of fuel is usable, assuming I can keep the plane level. No on off valves in the entire sys.
Once again ,taking a page from John Hs book I'm not suggesting that this is the way things should be done, only that this is how i did it. About 100 hrs on this sys. No problems.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
Brownsville , TX
On Jan 20, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Tony, I plumbed my fuel system with stock plastic tanks and top taps. There is no balance line between the tanks so I run a selector valve. I have the fuel gauge sender in the tank behind me since I cannot see it in flight. I run off the left tank first until it's down to a gallon or so, then switch to the right tank with the gauge.For what it's worth.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 12:21 PM, albertakolbmk3 <cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com (cheriebraun(at)xplornet.com)> wrote:
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Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Ge09/direct/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now. | Quote: |
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:46 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Dana,
I thought silicone would be the way to go. But I don't pretend to know much about gasket material . What would you think is the best material to use. very simple and quick
to change gaskets . I use auto pump gas 10 percent ethanol.
I THANK you for your post. Hope everyone on the list cares enough to speak up if they see someone doing something they believe is unsafe, even if some people think
they are being nosy, butting in , or think their way is the only way. I may not always take the advice that is offered---but I do always appreciate it----.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar2
Brownsville , TX
On Jan 20, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Dana Hague wrote:
[quote]At 06:51 PM 1/20/2010, frank.goodnight wrote:
| Quote: | Tony,
I have a 2 tank firestar 2. I have never liked the top draw system, I am NOT trying to say there is something wrong with it , or that any one should change it, just that I
personally don't like it. At my auto store I found an all metal tire valve that is made similar to a through bulkhead fitting. I removed the [guts] , made a gasket of silicone ,cut a hole... |
Only problem I see is the silicone gasket... mixing silicone with gasoline is bad news.
-Dana
--
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got no clothes on - and are up to somethin'. | Quote: |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:04 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Frank G/Gang:
Understand you used silicone gasket material vs a tube of silicone seal?
I haven't checked the compatibility of silicone material with gasoline. However, silicone hose connectors for diesel intercoolers is very popular and very expensive. I have them on the old Dodge Cummins. They seem to be compatible with diesel, motor oil, antifreeze, and a lot of heat.
Would be a good idea to check it out to be sure.
If you used silicone seal, that is a no no. I sealed a vented fuel cap on a Ken Brock seat tank in my FS, in 1987, with silicone seal. On a flight to Miami, FL, I lost the engine over Sebring, FL. Shot a landing in the high school foot ball stadium with no brakes. Found a few little balls of silicone seal in the inlet valve of the primer bulb. ;-(
john h
mkIII
[quote]
I thought silicone would be the way to go.
Frank Goodnight
[b]
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MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:12 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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At 08:27 PM 1/20/2010, frank.goodnight wrote:
| Quote: | | I don't have a moisture trap or drain. Have never had a water problem, apparently plastic tanks don't condense as much as metal tanks... |
That's what a friend of mine thought, until his engine quit on takeoff. A bunch of surgeries fixed him but his MKIII is still a crumpled mess.
| Quote: | | I thought silicone would be the way to go. But I don't pretend to know much about gasket material . What would you think is the best material to use |
Best material for gasoline is nitrile rubber (also known as Buna N). That's what standard O-rings are generally made of.
-Dana
--
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got no clothes on - and are up to somethin'. [quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:12 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Frank G/Gang:
Reference your anticipated fuel site gauge, which I have always used in my FS and mkIII.
In order for it to work correctly, you must plumb it from the top of the tank to the lowest part of the tank, seperately from your other fuel lines.
If you plumb it into the main fuel line, it will pull the level in the site gauge down when the engine is running and the fuel pump is pumping. You've probably already guessed how I know this. 
The site gauge is the most accurate/reliable/no maintenance sytem for monitoring fuel level.
john h
mkIII
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:12 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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John, I used silicone gasket material, not the tube stuff.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:03 PM, John Hauck wrote:
| Quote: | Frank G/Gang:
Understand you used silicone gasket material vs a tube of silicone seal?
I haven't checked the compatibility of silicone material with gasoline. However, silicone hose connectors for diesel intercoolers is very popular and very expensive. I have them on the old Dodge Cummins. They seem to be compatible with diesel, motor oil, antifreeze, and a lot of heat.
Would be a good idea to check it out to be sure.
If you used silicone seal, that is a no no. I sealed a vented fuel cap on a Ken Brock seat tank in my FS, in 1987, with silicone seal. On a flight to Miami, FL, I lost the engine over Sebring, FL. Shot a landing in the high school foot ball stadium with no brakes. Found a few little balls of silicone seal in the inlet valve of the primer bulb. ;-(
john h
mkIII
| Quote: |
I thought silicone would be the way to go.
Frank Goodnight
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albertakolbmk3
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 69
Location: Innisfail, AB
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel system layout |
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Frank,
There is a low point drain for each tank... the spring loaded push type like on the GA's.
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Tony B.
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop |
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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>Don't know anything about the electric fuel gages C they may be a better option.
>Frank Goodnight
>Firestar 2
>Brownsville C TX
Frank C
It's hard to dispute John H.'s take on a clear tubing sight gauge. If it's plumbed correctly C not a whole lot can go wrong.
However C if you were inclined to want an electric fuel gauge C here's a couple of points.
First C the electric gauge uses a tiny amount of electricity (a couple of milli-volts). It sends this electricity to a sending unit to measure the resistance of the sending unit's float position C which is actually a variable resistor. This sending unit mounts to the top of the fuel tank C with the mechanism (float) hanging down inside the tank.
As the float arm swings up or down C it slides the contact point of the resistor C giving a different resistance depending on the float position.
If the resistance is high C it means your tank is full. If the resistance is low C you're getting low on fuel. The gauge is simply an ohm meter C but it gives it's reading in a scale that reads "1/4...1/2...3/4...full".
There are two popular "types" of fuel gauges. (Actually C I think I've seen some foreign odd-balls C but I'm not talking about those).
There is the 10-180 ohm gauge/sending unit C and the 33-240 ohm gauge/sending unit.
They are NOT interchangeable C at least not with accurate fuel level readings.
The hook-up is fairly easy C and very straightforward. 5 wire hookup. 12v pos & neg. and dash lights. The other two wires go to the sending unit C and clip on the top of the sending
unit with those little spade wire clamps.
Most of the gauges you can buy at Pep Boys C Autozone C etc C have a range of tank depth they'll work in. Often 5" to 16" deep tank.
Here is a very typical gauge/sending unit you'd find at an auto parts store. Note this is the 10-180 ohm style.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VDO-301104-Gauge-Cockpit-Fuel-Level-Empty-Full-10-180_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4ced3601d5QQitemZ330397254101QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Like I said C if a guy were inclined to want an actual gauge C getting one of these universal type units is a simple solution. They're super easy to hook up C and aren't very expensive.
BTW C you don't have to buy the gauge with the sending unit. But C you will definitely want to make sure you get the proper gauge and sending unit ohm ranges matched C if you buy them separately.
Mike Welch
Hotmail: Free C trusted and rich email service. Get it now. [quote][b]
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:52 am Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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At 09:11 PM 1/20/2010, John Hauck wrote:
| Quote: |
The site gauge is the most accurate/reliable/no maintenance sytem for monitoring fuel level. |
I will be using a sight gauge for the new aluminum tank I'm putting in my UltraStar. Something I found on another list: If you use 5/16" instead of 14" ID tubing for the sight gauge, you can drop a "Piper fuel ball" into the tube. The floating red ball makes the fuel level a lot easier to see (the FAA requires the balls in type certificated planes with sight gauges). Univair seems to be the only supplier:
<http://univairparts.com/shopping/product_info.php?products_id=10373>
-Dana
--
Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug. [quote][b]
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albertakolbmk3
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 69
Location: Innisfail, AB
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:30 am Post subject: Re: Fuel system layout |
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Dana,
I Like the ball idea. The reason I'm putting the sending units in is I find it very hard to read the fuel level in the tube. The ball would definitely help but only as a backup for me. I like to see everything on the panel and not have to crank my head around like a chicken to see my fuel level.
Tony
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Tony B.
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Dana/Gang:
Good idea. Wish I had one in my sight gauge. I'll keep that in mind when I get to the point I need to change out my tube.
john h
mkIII
[quote] If you use 5/16" instead of 14" ID tubing for the sight gauge, you can drop a "Piper fuel ball" into the tube.
-Dana
[b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:13 am Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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Dana,
The fuel float ball sounds like a great idea. Why didn't I think of that.
Frank Goodnight
Do not archive
On Jan 21, 2010, at 5:38 AM, Dana Hague wrote:
[quote]At 09:11 PM 1/20/2010, John Hauck wrote:
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The site gauge is the most accurate/reliable/no maintenance sytem for monitoring fuel level. |
I will be using a sight gauge for the new aluminum tank I'm putting in my UltraStar. Something I found on another list: If you use 5/16" instead of 14" ID tubing for the sight gauge, you can drop a "Piper fuel ball" into the tube. The floating red ball makes the fuel level a lot easier to see (the FAA requires the balls in type certificated planes with sight gauges). Univair seems to be the only supplier:
<http://univairparts.com/shopping/product_info.php?products_id=10373>
-Dana
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elleryweld(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: Fuel system layout |
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frank
I use a northstar fuel flow meter in My Kolbs this unit gives you fuel burn rate ,remaining fuel, alrms,all you have to be is fussy calibrating it and I think this is the best unit for my situation You can find them in the link below
http://www.boatersmarinesupply.com/m7_view_item.html?m7:item=28843
Ellery Batchelder Jr.
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albertakolbmk3
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 69
Location: Innisfail, AB
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel system layout |
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Here's an even cheaper place to pick them up,
http://www.boatersland.com/f210.html
Tony
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_________________
Tony B.
Kolb MKIII C
Rotax 582
C Gearbox 3.00:1
WD 66" 3 Blade Prop |
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