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Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

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bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:37 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

1/22/2010



Hello Jon, You wrote:



1) "Oh brother.."



{Response} Hang in there for one more go around. This time we will restrict 

the discussion to just charting of uncontrolled airspace and leave 

transponders out of it since that subject seems to make some peoples' head 

hurt.



2) ".............. one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFRchart) to 

see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists." and



"RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page:



http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm"



{Response} Just looking at a Sectional chart alone and the web site diagram 

does not permit one to see where all true uncontrolled airspace exists. Here 

is why:



A) The AIRPORT TRAFFIC AND AIRSPACE Legend portion of current Sectional 

charts has this wording in it:



"Only the controlled and reserved airspace effective below 18,000 ft. MSL 

are shown on this chart." This means that the location of lateral areas of 

uncontrolled Class G airspace that go from the surface up to 14,500 feet can 

not be determined by looking at a Sectional chart.

B) The AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND AIRSPACE INFORMATION on a current IFR 

ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart has these wordings in it under AIRSPACE 

INFORMATION:



"Open area (white) indicates controlled airspace (Class E); unless otherwise 

indicated."



"All airspace 14,500' and above is controlled (Class E)"



"Shaded area (brown) indicates uncontrolled airspace below 14,500' (Class 

G)"



So one needs both Sectional and IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts to 

completely determine where all uncontrolled Class G airspace is located.



The Sectional chart will tell one where the controlled Class E airspace 

exists both laterally by an outline and vertically by either magenta or blue 

shading, but won't tell one where the the lateral dimensions of uncontrolled 

Class G airspace are.



The IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart, by brown shading, will show one where 

uncontrolled Class G airspace exists laterally from the surface up to 

14,500.



Why don't you get an IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart for some areas out west 

where there is some brown shading, check it out, and let us know what you 

find. Our IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts back east are all white between 

the navigation information.



Thanks.

'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and 

understand knowledge."



==================================================



From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>

Subject: RE: Encoder Certification

Date: Jan 21, 2010



Oh brother..



Apparently this discussion has went around and around enough times that what

is being said no longer makes sense to anyone.



Next subject please!

Jon



========================================



Jon Finley wrote:



RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page:



http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm



Jon

jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

Oops, hit reply and it only went to Bob instead of the list....

 



--

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

1/23/2010



Hello Jon Finley, I am sorry that your January 22, 2010 2:11 PM posting 

copied below has an emotional and rejecting tone to it. My postings in 

response to yours have in no way intended to be punitive or critical of you 

personally -- just educational for all involved. With that in mind please 

let me respond in detail to your posting copied below.



You wrote:



1) "It is no wonder folks on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop."



{Response} Yes, I was persistent regarding transponder requirements. I did 

this because some people were still posting using the wrong criteria and I 

did not want to let that erroneous information stand uncorrected.



2) "As an aside, do you work for the government??"



{Response} My personal work for the U. S. government consisted of 36 years 

on active duty in the US Navy and US Marine Corps as both enlisted and 

officer fixing and flying airplanes and helicopters. I retired from that 

work in 1986.



3) "WE ALL GET IT!"



{Response} Good, I hope that my postings had something to do with that.



4) "So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled airspace" 

cannot be shown??  That makes no sense."



{Response} When the aviation chart makers were confronted with the problem 

of showing the lateral dimensions of that uncontrolled Class G airspace 

which goes from the surface all the way up to 14,500 feet MSL they realized 

that putting such information on a Sectional chart would result in 

unacceptable clutter. They came up with the solution of using brown shading 

for those areas on the low altitude IFR charts to show that information.



5) "Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this 

entire section worthless)."



{Response} These are the accepted terms. They make it possible to write 

about those two different kinds of airspace without listing each individual 

identification letter each time the writer wants to refer to a kind of 

airspace.



6) "We agree that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E 

airspace. THIS IS DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL.  You do not need an IFR chart to 

see this."



{Response} This is correct, but you do need a low altitude IFR chart to show 

the lateral dimensions of the uncontrolled airspace shaded brown that goes 

from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL because that information is not 

depicted on a Sectional chart. See the response to item 4 above. One cannot 

get the total picture just by focusing on vertical dimensions and looking at 

a Sectional chart.



7) "Why don't YOU do the research instead of asking me to do it?  Better 

still, do this research BEFORE responding."



{Response} I have already done so. I am suggesting that you look at the 

actual charts involved, Albuquerque Sectional and the low altitude IFR chart 

for that area, so that you can see the brown shading for yourself. I made 

this suggestion because you did not appear to take my posted information as 

valid.



 " I have given you the resource (Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and 

IFR chart in the USA."



I did go to the Skyvector site as you suggested -- thank you. I Iooked at 

the sample charts that they would let me look at for no cost -- those 

samples, while not of the specific area of our interest, did confirm my 

posted information. Since I fly from an airport in Virginia I could not 

justify the expense of purchasing a current Albuquerque Sectional (my copy 

is outdated) and appropriate current low altitude IFR chart just to look at 

them myself when my goal was to have you look at them.



A fellow EAA Chapter member has offered to give me a complete set of current 

low altitude IFR charts. When I get my hands on them I will let you know and 

ask for your mailing address so that I can mail you the appropriate low 

altitude IFR chart. I presume that you already have a current Albuquerque 

Sectional since you fly out of Los Lunas (E98).



Please let me know if this plan is acceptable to you.



'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and 

understand knowledge."



=====================================================



---

jessejenks(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:51 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

This discussion is good. It may not be the appropriate forum for it C but it's good anyway. We don't need to get angry though.

One important point that was overlooked below is that class E can extend to the SURFACE around some airports (magenta dashed line) when weather is below 1000' and 3 miles. These airports are non towered C and so there is a big potential gotcha for VFR pilots. This airspace is controlled because an instrument approach exists. It is illegal and unsafe to truck through this airspace (or takeoff or land) without a clearance (special VFR or IFR) when weather is below 1000 and 3.

Also C check out runwayfinder.com

That's my favorite site for quick flight planning. You can view the whole country in sectional form C and plot your course on it. You can also see TFRs and overlay all the weather advisories C and it's all FREE.

Jesse



Date: Fri C 22 Jan 2010 19:33:51 -0700

Subject: AeroElectric-List: FW: RE: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

From: jon(at)finleyweb.net

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com



Oops C hit reply and it only went to Bob instead of the list....

 



--

bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

Good Morning OC,

  

 I, for one admire your tenacity and am glad you are helping to educate the  rest of us. However, I do NOT see where controlled and uncontrolled airspace is  pertinent to the discussion. As I understood the question, he wanted to know  where a transponder was required. A transponder is NOT required for VFR flight  in the vast majority of controlled airspace.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Downers Grove. IL

 Stearman N3977A

 Never an officer, just a Corporal, USMC.

  

  In a message dated 1/23/2010 9:00:31 A.M. Central Standard Time,  bakerocb(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by:    <bakerocb(at)cox.net>



1/23/2010



Hello Jon Finley, I am sorry    that your January 22, 2010 2:11 PM posting 

copied below has an emotional    and rejecting tone to it. My postings in 

response to yours have in no way    intended to be punitive or critical of you 

personally -- just educational    for all involved. With that in mind please 

let me respond in detail to    your posting copied below.



You wrote:



1) "It is no wonder folks    on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop."



{Response} Yes, I    was persistent regarding transponder requirements. I did 

this because some    people were still posting using the wrong criteria and I 

did not want to    let that erroneous information stand uncorrected.



2) "As an aside, do    you work for the government??"



{Response} My personal work for the U.    S. government consisted of 36 years 

on active duty in the US Navy and US    Marine Corps as both enlisted and 

officer fixing and flying airplanes and    helicopters. I retired from that 

work in 1986.



3) "WE ALL GET    IT!"



{Response} Good, I hope that my postings had something to do with    that.



4) "So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled    airspace" 

cannot be shown??  That makes no sense."



{Response}    When the aviation chart makers were confronted with the problem 

of showing    the lateral dimensions of that uncontrolled Class G airspace 

which goes    from the surface all the way up to 14,500 feet MSL they realized 

that    putting such information on a Sectional chart would result in 

unacceptable    clutter. They came up with the solution of using brown shading 

for those    areas on the low altitude IFR charts to show that information.



5)    "Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this    

entire section worthless)."



{Response} These are the accepted    terms. They make it possible to write 

about those two different kinds of    airspace without listing each individual 

identification letter each time    the writer wants to refer to a kind of 

airspace.



6) "We agree that    Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E 

airspace. THIS IS    DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL.  You do not need an IFR chart to 

see    this."



{Response} This is correct, but you do need a low altitude IFR    chart to show 

the lateral dimensions of the uncontrolled airspace shaded    brown that goes 

from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL because that    information is not 

depicted on a Sectional chart. See the response to item    4 above. One cannot 

get the total picture just by focusing on vertical    dimensions and looking at 

a Sectional chart.



7) "Why don't YOU do    the research instead of asking me to do it?  Better 

still, do this    research BEFORE responding."



{Response} I have already done so. I am    suggesting that you look at the 

actual charts involved, Albuquerque    Sectional and the low altitude IFR chart 

for that area, so that you can    see the brown shading for yourself. I made 

this suggestion because you did    not appear to take my posted information as 

valid.



 " I have    given you the resource (Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and 

IFR chart    in the USA."



I did go to the Skyvector site as you suggested -- thank    you. I Iooked at 

the sample charts that they would let me look at for no    cost -- those 

samples, while not of the specific area of our interest, did    confirm my 

posted information. Since I fly from an airport in Virginia I    could not 

justify the expense of purchasing a current Albuquerque    Sectional (my copy 

is outdated) and appropriate current low altitude IFR    chart just to look at 

them myself when my goal was to have you look at    them.



A fellow EAA Chapter member has offered to give me a complete set    of current 

low altitude IFR charts. When I get my hands on them I will let    you know and 

ask for your mailing address so that I can mail you the    appropriate low 

altitude IFR chart. I presume that you already have a    current Albuquerque 

Sectional since you fly out of Los Lunas    (E98).



Please let me know if this plan is acceptable to    you.



'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to    gather and 

understand    knowledge."



=====================================================



-----    Original Message ----- 

From: <jon(at)finleyweb.net>

To:    <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 2:11 PM

Subject:    RE: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace



Bakerocb,



Apparently I am a    terrible glutten for punishment..  It is no wonder folks 

on the list    are asking for this nonsense to stop.  As an aside, do you work 

for    the government??



1. For some reason you seem to believe that nobody    understands this (when is 

a transponder required). WE ALL GET IT!  It    is very simple (it has been said 

repeatedly, read CFR 91.215    (b)).



2.A. So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then    "uncontrolled airspace" 

cannot be shown??  That makes no sense.    "Uncontrolled airspace" is 

everything that is NOT controlled.  Using    these generic terms ("controlled" 

and "uncontrolled" makes this entire    section worthless).



This part is getting really old....  On a    sectional:

Class B, C, and D indicate where the "controlled airspace"    extends to the 

ground (and much more).



The lowest floor of Class E    is 700' AGL. The shaded magenta lines show where 

the floor of Class E    changes from 700' AGL to 1,200' AGL. The shaded blue 

lines show where the    floor of Class E changes from 1200' AGL to 14,500' AGL. 

The staggered blue    lines (e.g. "----___---___-----___----") show where the 

floor of the Class    E airspace is when this cannot be depicted by the shaded 

blue or magenta    lines. These staggered blue lines either specify the floor 

of the Class E    airspace or it is 14,500' MSL.



Class G airspace exists UNDER Class E    (at a minimum, possibly more, I'm not 

sure).



2.B.  We agree    that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E 

airspace. THIS IS    DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL.  You do not need an IFR chart to 

see    this.



Additionally, a low level IFR chart does NOT depict the areas in    which the 

floor of the Class E is at a non-standard (14,500' MSL)    altitude. This means 

that the pilot could THINK, because the chart is    showing "white", that Class 

E exists to 1,200' AGL when it does not    (rather, it may end at 12,500' AGL, 

for example).

Why don't YOU    do the research instead of asking me to do it?  Better still, 

do this    research BEFORE responding.  I have given you the resource    

(Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and IFR chart in the USA.  I'll    even 

give you a tip - look at the two charts in the area around Gallup, NM    (GUP).



Jon



======================================================



-----Original    Message-----

From: bakerocb(at)cox.net

Hello Jon, You wrote:



1) "Oh    brother.."



{Response} Hang in there for one more go around. This time    we will restrict

the discussion to just charting of uncontrolled airspace    and leave

transponders out of it since that subject seems to make some    peoples' head

hurt.



2) ".............. one has to actually look at a    sectional (NOT IFRchart) to

see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists."    and



"RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this    page:



http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm"



{Response} Just    looking at a Sectional chart alone and the web site diagram

does not permit    one to see where all true uncontrolled airspace exists. Here

is    why:



A) The AIRPORT TRAFFIC AND AIRSPACE Legend portion of current    Sectional

charts has this wording in it:



"Only the controlled and    reserved airspace effective below 18,000 ft. MSL

are shown on this chart."    This means that the location of lateral areas of

uncontrolled Class G    airspace that go from the surface up to 14,500 feet can

not be determined    by looking at a Sectional chart.

B) The AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND    AIRSPACE INFORMATION on a current IFR

ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart has these    wordings in it under AIRSPACE

INFORMATION:



"Open area (white)    indicates controlled airspace (Class E); unless    otherwise

indicated."



"All airspace 14,500' and above is controlled    (Class E)"



"Shaded area (brown) indicates uncontrolled airspace below    14,500' (Class

G)"



So one needs both Sectional and IFR ENROUTE LOW    ALTITUDE charts to

completely determine where all uncontrolled Class G    airspace is located.



The Sectional chart will tell one where the    controlled Class E airspace

exists both laterally by an outline and    vertically by either magenta or blue

shading, but won't tell one where the    the lateral dimensions of uncontrolled

Class G airspace are.



The IFR    ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart, by brown shading, will show one    where

uncontrolled Class G airspace exists laterally from the surface up    to

14,500.



Why don't you get an IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart for    some areas out west

where there is some brown shading, check it out, and    let us know what you

find. Our IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts back east    are all white between

the navigation    information.



Thanks.

'OC' Says: "The best investment we can    make is the effort to gather and

understand    knowledge."



==================================================



From:    "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>

Subject: RE: Encoder    Certification

Date: Jan 21, 2010



Oh brother..



Apparently this    discussion has went around and around enough times that what

is being said    no longer makes sense to anyone.



Next subject    please!

Jon



========================================



Jon    Finley wrote:



RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this    page:



http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm



Jon





	


  [quote][b]

mmayfield

Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 40
Location: NSW Central Coast, Australia

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

 	  bobsv35b(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Good Morning OC,

A transponder is NOT required for VFR flight  in the vast majority of controlled airspace.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob 	


Apologies for butting my Aussie nose into this quite interesting discussion, but virtually all of our rules these days are based very closely on FAA regs for standardisation reasons, and they very clearly require the carriage and operation of a transponder in Class A, B, C, and E airspace (which is pretty much all controlled airspace), unless you're VFR and are not equipped with an electrical system capable of continuously powering one. You can get an exemption in certain circumstances at the discretion of individual ATC units, but these are not exactly handed out in Cracker Jack boxes.



I appreciate FAA regs may differ, but for a common garden-variety VFR aircraft to not require a transponder in the majority of controlled airspace would seem highly unusual to me (as it kinda somewhat defeats the purpose of the airspace being actually controlled, ATC "control" applying to all aircraft regardless of their category).



Just food for thought. No offence intended to anyone. And in the end, how much is the cost of a properly maintained and operating transponder compared to the total cost of a homebuilt anyway?



Mike

bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

Good Evening Mike,

  

 I have no knowledge at all concerning Australian regulations, but if you  have access to a list of US regulations you will find that what I said is  true. 

  

 I hate to repeat it so often, but we do NOT need a transponder if we  stay out of class A, B, and C airspace and do not fly above ten thousand  feet MSL anywhere except when doing so would make us hit the terrain.   In that case, we can go above ten thousand without a transponder as long  as we stay within 2500 feet of the ground.(We do NOT need a  transponder to fly in class E airspace)  We do NOT need a transponder  for VFR flight. As others  (I think It was Kelly among others) have  said, we can even fly IFR in the areas I listed as OK for VFR without a  transponder. I am not recommending that as a normal operation, but that was not  the question that had been asked. 

  

 In uncontrolled airspace, of which there is very little in the lower  forty-eight, we CAN fly IFR without a clearance. That is the only material  difference between Controlled and Uncontrolled airspace.  Controlled only  refers to IFR operations. There are other rules that tell us what we need in the  various categories of airspace. For example, class D requires that we establish  communication and get a clearance to go in there, but we do NOT need a  transponder to fly in the class D controlled airspace unless it is within a  class B or C associated airspace ring that does require a transponder.

  

 The vast majority of airspace in which we USA GA pilots fly can legally be  flown in without a transponder.

  

 As OC says, it is easiest to just read the pertinent portions of the  FARs.  It is all spelled out quite clearly in the regulations. and in fewer  words than it took me! <G>

  

 Any help at all?

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Downers Grove, IL USA

 Stearman N3977A

  

  In a message dated 1/23/2010 8:24:37 P.M. Central Standard Time,  mmayfield(at)ozemail.com.au writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mmayfield"    <mmayfield(at)ozemail.com.au>

bobsv35b(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		      Good Morning OC,

 A transponder is NOT required for VFR flight  in    the vast majority of controlled airspace.

   

     Happy Skies,

   

  Old Bob


	


Apologies for    butting my Aussie nose into this quite interesting discussion, but virtually    all of our rules these days are based very closely on FAA regs for    standardisation reasons, and they very clearly require the carriage and    operation of a transponder in Class A, B, C, and E airspace (which is pretty    much all controlled airspace), unless you're VFR and are not equipped with an    electrical system capable of continuously powering one. You can get an    exemption in certain circumstances at the discretion of individual ATC units,    but these are not exactly handed out in Cracker Jack boxes.



I    appreciate FAA regs may differ, but for a common garden-variety VFR aircraft    to not require a transponder in the majority of controlled airspace would seem    highly unusual to me (as it kinda somewhat defeats the purpose of the airspace    being actually controlled, ATC "control" applying to all aircraft regardless    of their category).



Just food for thought. No offence intended to    anyone.



Mike





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283159#283159===============================================

_-=   = Use   utilities  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


  [quote][b]

mmayfield

Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 40
Location: NSW Central Coast, Australia

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

Gidday Bob.



I understand the clearance/no clearance requirements with controlled and uncontrolled airspace and IFR vs VFR. That's quite standard, and it's the same over here.



Just interesting about the transponder requirements. They are certainly different, and Australian homebuilders should take note if they're thinking of not installing one, even if they are going VFR everywhere!



Cheers,

Mike

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:37 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

I don't know Bob..  Next thing you're going to say is that all you need to

stay upright is needle, ball, and airspeed..   Ha!  

Matt-

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		   Good Evening Mike,

 I have no knowledge at all concerning Australian regulations, but if you

 have access to a list of US regulations you will find that what I said is

 true.

 I hate to repeat it so often, but we do NOT need a transponder if we  stay

 out of class A, B, and C airspace and do not fly above ten thousand  feet

 MSL anywhere except when doing so would make us hit the terrain.   In that

 case, we can go above ten thousand without a transponder as long  as we

 stay

 within 2500 feet of the ground.(We do NOT need a  transponder to fly in

 class

 E airspace)  We do NOT need a transponder  for VFR flight. As others  (I

 think It was Kelly among others) have  said, we can even fly IFR in the

 areas I

 listed as OK for VFR without a  transponder. I am not recommending that as

 a normal operation, but that was not  the question that had been asked.

 In uncontrolled airspace, of which there is very little in the lower

 forty-eight, we CAN fly IFR without a clearance. That is the only material

 difference between Controlled and Uncontrolled airspace.  Controlled only

 refers

 to IFR operations. There are other rules that tell us what we need in the

 various categories of airspace. For example, class D requires that we

 establish  communication and get a clearance to go in there, but we do NOT

 need a

 transponder to fly in the class D controlled airspace unless it is within

 a

  class B or C associated airspace ring that does require a transponder.

 The vast majority of airspace in which we USA GA pilots fly can legally be

 flown in without a transponder.

 As OC says, it is easiest to just read the pertinent portions of the

 FARs.

  It is all spelled out quite clearly in the regulations. and in fewer

 words than it took me! <G>

 Any help at all?

 Happy Skies,

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Downers Grove, IL USA

 Stearman N3977A

 In a message dated 1/23/2010 8:24:37 P.M. Central Standard Time,

 mmayfield(at)ozemail.com.au writes:

 <mmayfield(at)ozemail.com.au>

 bobsv35b(at)aol.com wrote:

>  Good Morning OC,

> A transponder is NOT required for VFR flight  in  the vast majority of

 controlled airspace.

>

>   Happy Skies,

>

>  Old Bob

 Apologies for  butting my Aussie nose into this quite interesting

 discussion, but virtually  all of our rules these days are based very

 closely on FAA

 regs for  standardisation reasons, and they very clearly require the

 carriage and  operation of a transponder in Class A, B, C, and E airspace

 (which is

 pretty  much all controlled airspace), unless you're VFR and are not

 equipped with an  electrical system capable of continuously powering one.

 You can

 get an  exemption in certain circumstances at the discretion of individual

 ATC units,  but these are not exactly handed out in Cracker Jack boxes.

 I  appreciate FAA regs may differ, but for a common garden-variety VFR

 aircraft  to not require a transponder in the majority of controlled

 airspace

 would seem  highly unusual to me (as it kinda somewhat defeats the purpose

 of

 the airspace  being actually controlled, ATC "control" applying to all

 aircraft regardless  of their category).

 Just food for thought. No offence intended to  anyone.

 Mike

 Read this topic online  here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 83159#283159

jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:16 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

Bakerocb,



Much more important than any of the airspace stuff - THANK YOU for your

years of service.



Jon



 	  Quote: 	
		   {Response} My personal work for the U. S. government consisted of 36

 years

 on active duty in the US Navy and US Marine Corps as both enlisted and

 officer fixing and flying airplanes and helicopters. I retired from

 that

 work in 1986.

bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:26 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

BINGO!

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

 Do Not Archive

  

  In a message dated 1/24/2010 5:38:28 A.M. Central Standard Time,  mprather(at)spro.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather"    <mprather(at)spro.net>



I don't know Bob..  Next thing you're    going to say is that all you need to

stay upright is needle, ball, and    airspeed..   Ha!  

Matt-



do not    archive



	


  [quote][b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:19 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace

1/24/2010



Hello Fellow Marine Old Bob, You wrote: "However, I do NOT see where 

controlled and uncontrolled airspace is  pertinent to the discussion."



Agreed -- airspace category identification on charts per se was not 

pertinent to the original posting, but that identification became of 

educational interest as postings went on. I don't think an audit trail of 

the entire sequence of postings on how this subject got all wrapped around 

the axle is desired by all readers -- so here is a condensed audit trail 

version:



A) It all began with a posting by Steve Thomas (Msg # 48119 on Jan 16, 

2010), using the subject "Encoder Certification"  who wanted to know if he 

could fly away from his home base with his newly certified experimental 

amateur built airplane without an operating and certified transponder in 

order to have the appropriate transponder checks done at another location.



B) Both you and I responded to his request (maybe some others as well) 

telling him how this was possible. Neither of us used the term "controlled 

airspace".



C) Then on Jan 18, 2010 in  #48141 Jon Finley wrote: "Everything noted so 

far in this thread assumes controlled airspace." and leaving the impression 

that controlled airspace alone could possibly be  the determining factor in 

whether or not an aircraft was required to be equipped with an operable 

coded transponder.



D) You and I both responded in a supportive, but clarification manner to 

Jon. Then followed a series of transponder oriented postings by many that 

morphed into a discussion of controlled versus uncontrolled airspace 

transponder requirements that further morphed into a discussion of how 

controlled and uncontrolled airspace was depicted on our aviation charts.



E) In that discourse on Jan20, 2010 in Msg #48158 Jon wrote: "......one has 

to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFR chart) to see where true 

"uncontrolled airspace" exists."



F) I then attempted to clarify that chart related statement by changing the 

subject line to "Charting Uncontrolled Airspace"  and pointing out the 

existence of the brown shaded uncontrolled airspace locations on the low 

altitude IFR charts which could not be determined by looking at a Sectional 

chart alone. Jon took exception to my clarification and we were launched off 

on an ongoing posting wrangle on that charting point using  the new subject 

line .



So you can see how we got from encoder certification into airspace 

depictions on charts. Maybe a bit messy sequence of events, and maybe not 

all directly related to this aeroelectric list venue, but still of some 

interest to those of us who fly in this country. I am mindful of the many 

readers of this list who may absorb what is written here without a 

challenging or questioning attitude and I am reluctant to let stand 

potentially misleading information.



Semper Fidelis,



'OC'

=======================================================



Time: 09:55:51 AM PST US

From: bobsv35b(at)aol.com

Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace



Good Morning OC,



I, for one admire your tenacity and am glad you are helping to educate the

rest of us. However, I do NOT see where controlled and uncontrolled

airspace is  pertinent to the discussion. As I understood the question, he 

wanted

to know  where a transponder was required. A transponder is NOT required for

VFR flight  in the vast majority of controlled airspace.



Happy Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Downers Grove. IL

Stearman N3977A

Never an officer, just a Corporal, USMC.

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