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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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 Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:50 am Post subject: map orientation, was: Re: AD insurance |
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At 09:54 AM 1/25/2010, Thom Riddle wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding flying chart orientation, I spent most my working life doing machine design, the first 20 years or so on a drawing board and the last part doing 3-D modeling on computers. I've hired a few "draftsmen trainees" over the years and found that the innate ability to re-orient shapes in your mind is NOT universal. This ability is a flat out requirement for being a draftsman or mechanical designer. Without it you can't really visualize what the various 2-d orthographic drawing views mean in 3-D space.
I finally uncovered a study done that came up with a meaningful statistic. Only about 1 in 7 people have the innate ability to re-orient shapes in their mind correctly. Those who have this innate ability have no trouble with following the chart with North UP... |
Interesting. I never saw a study, but it makes sense. I too have been a machine designer for years; I also taught 3D CAD. I found that some people (including myself) could easily look at the screen showing an isometric view while visualizing what's happening on a construction plane oriented to, say, the left side. Others had great difficulty and had to set the screen to a left view. I never understood why they had so much trouble, but maybe it's that "1 in 7" thing.
Similar in R/C flying. In some ways R/C is more difficult than real planes, as you have to visualize what the plane is doing even when it's flying towards you (airplane left is your right). Again, I have no trouble, but some guys would turn away from the plane and look at it over their shoulder when it was approaching them on a landing approach. Perhaps R/C flying helped me learn to visualize a design (I KNOW building R/C's helped me as a machine designer!)
But I still orient the map to my direction of flight, out of sheer habit since I learned that way.
-Dana
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To Be Old And Wise You Must First Be Young And Stupid [quote][b]
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russkinne(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:14 am Post subject: map orientation, was: Re: AD insurance |
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Don't know if I'm the 1 in 7, but in moving many many boats over the years, I always use North-up. Drives some owners nuts, esp. newbies. Even in a winding river I find it more accurate, readable and 'friendly'. In fact, especially there.But in the air I often find myself turning the chart so what I see in front of me is what's on the chart, right-side up.But that's me. Whatever works.
I do agree that R/C flying is lots more challenging than piloting a 'big' plane. I'll never forget the precision night flying of R/C's at TNK.
Russ K
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On Jan 25, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Dana Hague wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:54 AM 1/25/2010, Thom Riddle wrote:
| Quote: | Regarding flying chart orientation, I spent most my working life doing machine design, the first 20 years or so on a drawing board and the last part doing 3-D modeling on computers. I've hired a few "draftsmen trainees" over the years and found that the innate ability to re-orient shapes in your mind is NOT universal. This ability is a flat out requirement for being a draftsman or mechanical designer. Without it you can't really visualize what the various 2-d orthographic drawing views mean in 3-D space.
I finally uncovered a study done that came up with a meaningful statistic. Only about 1 in 7 people have the innate ability to re-orient shapes in their mind correctly. Those who have this innate ability have no trouble with following the chart with North UP... |
Interesting. I never saw a study, but it makes sense. I too have been a machine designer for years; I also taught 3D CAD. I found that some people (including myself) could easily look at the screen showing an isometric view while visualizing what's happening on a construction plane oriented to, say, the left side. Others had great difficulty and had to set the screen to a left view. I never understood why they had so much trouble, but maybe it's that "1 in 7" thing.
Similar in R/C flying. In some ways R/C is more difficult than real planes, as you have to visualize what the plane is doing even when it's flying towards you (airplane left is your right). Again, I have no trouble, but some guys would turn away from the plane and look at it over their shoulder when it was approaching them on a landing approach. Perhaps R/C flying helped me learn to visualize a design (I KNOW building R/C's helped me as a machine designer!)
But I still orient the map to my direction of flight, out of sheer habit since I learned that way.
-Dana
do not archive
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To Be Old And Wise You Must First Be Young And Stupid | Quote: |
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: map orientation, was: Re: AD insurance |
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I have always flown with the map oriented in the direction of flight. Less
translation in the thought process, and I need the help as I have left right
hand problems.
The mind can be a tricky thing. When I first started to fly to outlying
airports, I could not find them. I would approach at 3,000 feet agl and the
GPS said they were there, but I could not see them. What I discovered was
that at that altitude I was looking much too far ahead. After several
misses and making tight circles, I learned where to start looking, ten miles
out, and the problem of airport identification disappeared.
Also, I used to fly some 50+ miles from Perryville Municipal Airport to
Painton, MO for my monthly EAA chapter meetings. After a while I did not
need the GPS, but it was important to fly the shortest distance to conserve
fuel. I would just pick a spot on the horizon and fly to it. I got so I
knew just about every tree, building and farm animal on the route. But
several times, I became distracted inside the cockpit and when I
reestablished my outside view, I found I didn't recognize anything. After
glancing at the compass and turning the FireFly back to the correct course,
immediately, I recognized where I was.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: Re: map orientation, was: Re: AD insurance |
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| jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: |
The mind can be a tricky thing. When I first started to fly to outlying
airports, I could not find them. I would approach at 3,000 feet agl and the
GPS said they were there, but I could not see them. What I discovered was
that at that altitude I was looking much too far ahead. After several
misses and making tight circles, I learned where to start looking, ten miles
out, and the problem of airport identification disappeared.
Also, I used to fly some 50+ miles from Perryville Municipal Airport to
Painton, MO for my monthly EAA chapter meetings. After a while I did not
need the GPS, but it was important to fly the shortest distance to conserve
fuel. I would just pick a spot on the horizon and fly to it. I got so I
knew just about every tree, building and farm animal on the route. But
several times, I became distracted inside the cockpit and when I
reestablished my outside view, I found I didn't recognize anything. After
glancing at the compass and turning the FireFly back to the correct course,
immediately, I recognized where I was.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive |
Interesting..... based on this kind of data I may be one of the 1 in 7.
I also found r/c to be significantly more challenging than full-scale (in fact full-scale is a cinch compared to r/c, IME) but I never had to do any wierd visualizing. I got used to the reversed/semi-reversed controls of the plane in the different orientations fairly quickly (tho I had to use mental mnemonics for this for quite a while). Even with r/c helicopters I was able to figure out nose-in vs. tail-in vs. side-on hovering and flying fairly well.
Tho I do find the ground-orientation of the map method to be a lot easier.
I do the same thing with airports tho. I went to an airport down south a few weeks ago, I was actually at about 5000' AGL as I approached it and was looking for it by my estimation at least 5 miles further away than it actually was. When I spotted it, it was a lot closer. Almost had to idle down to pattern altitude....
LS
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LS
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject: map orientation, was: Re: AD insurance |
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I imagine they would have a hard time selling auto GPSs perpetually oriented to the north.
BB
do not archive
On 25, Jan 2010, at 1:27 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
| Quote: |
I have always flown with the map oriented in the direction of flight. Less
translation in the thought process, and I need the help as I have left right
hand problems.
The mind can be a tricky thing. When I first started to fly to outlying
airports, I could not find them. I would approach at 3,000 feet agl and the
GPS said they were there, but I could not see them. What I discovered was
that at that altitude I was looking much too far ahead. After several
misses and making tight circles, I learned where to start looking, ten miles
out, and the problem of airport identification disappeared.
Also, I used to fly some 50+ miles from Perryville Municipal Airport to
Painton, MO for my monthly EAA chapter meetings. After a while I did not
need the GPS, but it was important to fly the shortest distance to conserve
fuel. I would just pick a spot on the horizon and fly to it. I got so I
knew just about every tree, building and farm animal on the route. But
several times, I became distracted inside the cockpit and when I
reestablished my outside view, I found I didn't recognize anything. After
glancing at the compass and turning the FireFly back to the correct course,
immediately, I recognized where I was.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
do not archive
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russkinne(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject: map orientation, was: Re: AD insurance |
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BB
I suspect you're right, but my GPS is always oriented north in
plane, car or boat. I seldom get lost! -- and not Garmin's fault when
I do.
Russ
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On Jan 25, 2010, at 3:18 PM, robert bean wrote:
| Quote: |
I imagine they would have a hard time selling auto GPSs perpetually
oriented to the north.
BB
do not archive
On 25, Jan 2010, at 1:27 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:
>
> <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
>
> I have always flown with the map oriented in the direction of
> flight. Less
> translation in the thought process, and I need the help as I have
> left right
> hand problems.
>
> The mind can be a tricky thing. When I first started to fly to
> outlying
> airports, I could not find them. I would approach at 3,000 feet
> agl and the
> GPS said they were there, but I could not see them. What I
> discovered was
> that at that altitude I was looking much too far ahead. After
> several
> misses and making tight circles, I learned where to start looking,
> ten miles
> out, and the problem of airport identification disappeared.
>
> Also, I used to fly some 50+ miles from Perryville Municipal
> Airport to
> Painton, MO for my monthly EAA chapter meetings. After a while I
> did not
> need the GPS, but it was important to fly the shortest distance to
> conserve
> fuel. I would just pick a spot on the horizon and fly to it. I
> got so I
> knew just about every tree, building and farm animal on the
> route. But
> several times, I became distracted inside the cockpit and when I
> reestablished my outside view, I found I didn't recognize
> anything. After
> glancing at the compass and turning the FireFly back to the
> correct course,
> immediately, I recognized where I was.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
> do not archive
>
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: map orientation, was: Re: AD insurance |
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My Tom-Tom allows the user to specify orientation like my Lowrance 2000C. And, like my flying GPS, I keep my car GPS on North is up orientation. Just my preference. Lots of folks don't come close to understanding the compass directions. If I tell my wife to turn west, she has no idea which way that is, so I tell her to turn toward Lake Erie for west. She just wants to know right or left, which of course depends upon which way you are already headed. One of my daughters gets compass directions but the other one doesn't. Directions are really hard for a lot of people.... I am guessing about 6 out of 7  .
do not archive
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject: map orientation, was: Re: AD insurance |
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That's why I don't venture far from home.
Being of a stone age nature my GPS is a garmin handheld etrex. The little pointy thing tells me which way to go,
that is if I bring it along. I have to admiit to being of the lay the map to match the terrain type of guy too.
When I'm building something I can image it in my mind but turning it upside down would confuzzle me.
BB
do not archive
On 25, Jan 2010, at 5:15 PM, Thom Riddle wrote:
| Quote: |
My Tom-Tom allows the user to specify orientation like my Lowrance 2000C. And, like my flying GPS, I keep my car GPS on North is up orientation. Just my preference. Lots of folks don't come close to understanding the compass directions. If I tell my wife to turn west, she has no idea which way that is, so I tell her to turn toward Lake Erie for west. She just wants to know right or left, which of course depends upon which way you are already headed. One of my daughters gets compass directions but the other one doesn't. Directions are really hard for a lot of people.... I am guessing about 6 out of 7 .
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
- Thomas Jefferson
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