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Fuel Reserve and UL's
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

At 09:21 AM 3/1/10 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Most Rotax 2-stroke engines run closer to .6 lb/hp/hr BSFC.



--------


	


Thom,



.6 lb/hp/hr <- shouldn't the units be lb/hr/hp ?



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

At 09:53 PM 3/1/2010, Jack B. Hart wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  .6 lb/hp/hr <- shouldn't the units be lb/hr/hp ? 	


 Should be .6 lbs/(hp*hr)



 -Dana

 --

  Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.    [quote][b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

lets face it...you are not going to get much more than 12 hp per gal per hour...    Herb 



 

 At 09:18 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

 [quote]At 09:53 PM 3/1/2010, Jack B. Hart wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  .6 lb/hp/hr <- shouldn't the units be lb/hr/hp ? 	


 Should be .6 lbs/(hp*hr)



 -Dana

 --

  Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine. 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



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[/b] 	


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 19:34:00[b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:15 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's

. 6 pounds of fuel burnt for each hour spent running your engine at one horsepower output. 



.6 pounds of fuel burnt for each horsepower your engine outputs for one hour of running time. 



Same-Same to me. I personally don't care which order you put the units in. The resulting HP estimate will be the same.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

mark.shimei(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

I cruise my  Ultrastar at 4400rpm,burn 2 gph at 50mph.  Takeoff max RPM is 6000. EGT is  just below 1200,CHT is under 290deg.

  Gauges were  checked for accuracy,I thought they were off.  Mark

  

  

  

   [quote][b]

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:49 am Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

lets face it...you are not going to get much more than 12 hp per gal per hour...  

   

   

   

[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01CAB9E1.4A12B2C0[/img]  

   

This is the fuel consumption chart for the 912 ul  

   

Bottom scale is 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000    

Right scale lb/hp.hr  from bottom up is .5,  .55,  .6,  .65  

   

So do I interpret this to say the harder you push a 912 the less fuel it burns per HP per hour?  

   

And if I interpolate correctly,   is around 4.8 lb/hp.hour  

   

Boyd Young   

MkIII

image002.jpg

Description:

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Boyd,



The image is too small to see. If you have a larger version, please post it. I can't find a BSFC graph for the 912 engines in any recent manuals.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Thom- Lockwood's catalogue has copies of the Rotax fuel comsumption charts.  You'll need your glasses to read them.

  

                                                     Bill Sullivan

                                                     Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                     FS 447

 [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Bill,



My 2006-7 Lockwood catalogue shows fuel consumption for the 912 series engines only as a GPH curve. I think the older catalogues showed the BSFC curve like on the 2-stroke engines but I threw them away after I got this "new" one at Lockwood's 912 school around that time.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Thom- I put my glasses on to read the fine print, and you are right.  They do use different ways to chart the fuel consumption in Lockwood's 2007-2008 book.  I wonder why Rotax uses the two systems?

  

                                           Bill Sullivan

                                           Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                           FS 447

                                           50 degrees, and nice

 [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:10 am Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

I guess its been a tough spring every where. You guy's are  putting a lot of effort and thought into something that is only going to be a  WAG for your individual planes and the way that you fly them. Perhaps I am a bit  strange as I have never found any of the charts and info from Rotax to be much  more than a generalization. Perhaps it is the result of my altitude. I also  doubt that many of you actually fly at 75% of power, I know that I don't, I seem  to require more than a hole in the sky to satisfy my apparently jaded outlook.  But its much better than having a P match.

 Keep up the good work!

 Larry

  

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the  forwarding history, which includes my email address.

 [quote]   ---

_________________
do not archive

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Boyd,  

   

The image is too small to see. If you have a larger version, please post it. I can't find a BSFC graph for the 912 engines in any recent manuals.  

   

--------  

Thom Riddle  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


This chart is a part of the pdf attachment.  I added the numbers so they could be read easily.  

Boyd    

   

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scan0001.pdf

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Now I can read it.



All this says is that the efficiency peaks at about 5500 RPM, with approximately .45-.48 (eye-ball accuracy) lbs of fuel burned per hour per HP being produced. Since the curve goes up at lower speeds it will consume more fuel per HP produced at all slower speeds.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Jack getting to the point in my construction that I am sure I will finish the Firefly. It was designed for the 447 but I am whondering about other engines how about the Kawasaki 440? . What do you know about it?it would be easier for me to go with the 447 but the cost is getting out of hand . thank you  for your time and Knowledge. C

 

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly  



 

   From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 9:53:51 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's



--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>



At 09:21 AM 3/1/10 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>



Most Rotax 2-stroke engines run closer to .6 lb/hp/hr BSFC.



--------


	


Thom,



.6 lb/hp/hr <- shouldn't the units be lb/hr/hp ?



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, p;                      -Matt Drall============



           [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

At 08:51 PM 3/7/2010, chris davis wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Jack getting to the point in my construction that I am sure I will finish the Firefly. It was designed for the 447 but I am whondering about other engines how about the Kawasaki 440? . What do you know about it?it would be easier for me to go with the 447 but the cost is getting out of hand . thank you  for your time and Knowledge. C 	


 I've heard some good things about the 440A.  Less powerful than the 447 but reportedly very smooth running.  The higher power versions (440B and C) are supposedly less reliable.



 Another low cost alternative is the venerable Cuyuna ULII-02.  No longer made but still readily available, and parts are cheap.



 -Dana

 --

  If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown  too?    [quote][b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:04 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Chris

   I cannot find any info as to when the last 440 series of Kawasaki engines were built?   That would be a kicker with me...I feel that it has been  20 to 30  years or more since the last ones were made?   I looked at one snowmobile site and found that the 440 was on snowmobiles in 1980... Seems to me that it would be unusual for an engine design to run for 30 years..

   The engines may have come to the surplus market in the early 90's..   Searching for Kawasaki snowmobiles for sale...the last I see is an  1982 model...The engine was used on other brands...Maybe John Deere for one?   Herb 

   telling you this because I believe that anyone who says that they have new 440's for sale are not telling the whole truth...

 At 07:51 PM 3/7/2010, you wrote:

 [quote]Jack getting to the point in my construction that I am sure I will finish the Firefly. It was designed for the 447 but I am whondering about other engines how about the Kawasaki 440? . What do you know about it?it would be easier for me to go with the 447 but the cost is getting out of hand . thank you  for your time and Knowledge. C

 Chris Davis

 KXP 503 492 hrs

 Glider Pilot

 Disabled from crash building Firefly 

 From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 9:53:51 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net) >

 At 09:21 AM 3/1/10 -0800, you wrote:

 >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 >Most Rotax 2-stroke engines run closer to .6 lb/hp/hr BSFC.

 >

 >--------

 Thom,

 .6 lb/hp/hr <- shouldn't the units be lb/hr/hp ?

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, p;                     -Matt Drall============

 [b]

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:44 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

herb, Like J-bird?

 

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly  



 

   From: Herb <herbgh(at)nctc.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 11:02:26 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's



Chris



  I cannot find any info as to when the last 440 series of Kawasaki engines were built?   That would be a kicker with me...I feel that it has been  20 to 30  years or more since the last ones were made?   I looked at one snowmobile site and found that the 440 was on snowmobiles in 1980... Seems to me that it would be unusual for an engine design to run for 30 years..



  The engines may have come to the surplus market in the early 90's..   Searching for Kawasaki snowmobiles for sale...the last I see is an  1982 model...The engine  was used on other brands...Maybe John Deere for one?   Herb 



  telling you this because I believe that anyone who says that they have new 440's for sale are not telling the whole truth...

At 07:51 PM 3/7/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Jack getting to the point in my construction that I am sure I will finish the Firefly. It was designed for the 447 but I am whondering about other engines how about the Kawasaki 440? . What do you know about it?it would be easier for me to go with the 447 but the cost is getting out of hand . thank you  for your time and Knowledge. C

 

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly 



From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 9:53:51 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's



--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net) >



At 09:21 AM 3/1/10  -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>



Most Rotax 2-stroke engines run closer to .6 lb/hp/hr BSFC.



--------


	


Thom,



.6 lb/hp/hr <- shouldn't the units be lb/hr/hp ?



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, p;                     -Matt Drall============



[b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:50 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Never heard of them!!   Herb 

 At 10:41 PM 3/7/2010, you wrote:

 [quote]herb, Like J-bird?

 Chris Davis

 KXP 503 492 hrs

 Glider Pilot

 Disabled from crash building Firefly 

 From: Herb <herbgh(at)nctc.com>

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 11:02:26 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's

 Chris

   I cannot find any info as to when the last 440 series of Kawasaki engines were built?   That would be a kicker with me...I feel that it has been  20 to 30  years or more since the last ones were made?   I looked at one snowmobile site and found that the 440 was on snowmobiles in 1980... Seems to me that it would be unusual for an engine design to run for 30 years..

   The engines may have come to the surplus market in the early 90's..   Searching for Kawasaki snowmobiles for sale...the last I see is an  1982 model...The engine was used on other brands...Maybe John Deere for one?   Herb 

   telling you this because I believe that anyone who says that they have new 440's for sale are not telling the whole truth...

 At 07:51 PM 3/7/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Jack getting to the point in my construction that I am sure I will finish the Firefly. It was designed for the 447 but I am whondering about other engines how about the Kawasaki 440? . What do you know about it?it would be easier for me to go with the 447 but the cost is getting out of hand . thank you  for your time and Knowledge. C

 Chris Davis

 KXP 503 492 hrs

 Glider Pilot

 Disabled from crash building Firefly 

 From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 9:53:51 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Reserve and UL's

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net) >

 At 09:21 AM 3/1/10 -0800, you wrote:

 >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 >Most Rotax 2-stroke engines run closer to .6 lb/hp/hr BSFC.

 >

 >--------

 Thom,

 .6 lb/hp/hr <- shouldn't the units be lb/hr/hp ?

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, p;                     -Matt Drall============

 [b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:51:21 -0800 (PST)

From: chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com>

 	  Quote: 	

Jack getting to the point in my construction that I am sure I will finish 

the Firefly. It was designed for the 447 but I am whondering about other 

engines how about the Kawasaki 440? . What do you know about it?it would be 

easier for me to go with the 447 but the cost is getting out of hand . thank 

you  for your time and Knowledge. 

 	  Quote: 	

Chris,

I have no direct experience with the Kawasaki 440.  When I lived in 

southeast Missouri, I was a member of EAA Chapter 453 located at Painton, 

MO.  There was a fellow chapter member, Brian Williams, who purchased 

Kawasaki engines from J-Bird and he seemed very pleased with them.  He liked 

the engine performance and the low cost relative to a 447.   He lives in 

Cape Girardeau, MO, so you may be able to find a home telephone number for 

him and give him a call.

Brian Williams works as a mechanic at:

World of Honda - Yamaha

1728 N. Kingshighway

Cape Girardeau

Phone: (573)334-4266

E-mail: wohy(at)charterinternet.com

He may be able to help you out.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

mark.shimei(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:15 am Post subject: Fuel Reserve and UL's

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