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spar/gear bracket
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davemcc

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 74

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Buz

  

 thought this might be of interest to you, you can see it at www.esqual.se  I'll be checking mine

  

 Dave

 [quote]   ---

davemcc

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 74

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:43 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Buz

 I guess my photos did not come through, at the www.esqual.se site go to alerts, they show an  alert that one should be watching regarding the gear support, I like the idea of  the plate they added

 Dave

 [quote]   ---

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: spar/gear bracket

The photos show an esqual spar box just want to make that clear to the group first. Any one with and esqual  who has the spar box welded from stainless tubing specifically should look for it. The last bunch of esquals that came over had no metal parts, we never received them either.  

We provided the spar boxes for those aircraft, the boxes were welded from 4130 with our own design which is identical to the design in the Lighting.  

   

Nick  

   

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave

 Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:43 PM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: spar/gear bracket  

  

     

Buz  

    

I guess my photos did not come through, at the www.esqual.se site go to alerts, they show an alert that one should be watching regarding the gear support, I like the idea of the plate they added  

    

Dave  

  [quote]    

---

Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: spar/gear bracket

In a message dated 3/9/2010 2:24:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  corky(at)hbci.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   thought this might be of interest to you, you can see it at www.esqual.se  I'll be checking    mine

    

   Dave

	


 

  

 WOW, their kit price is a bite in the **^%$ considering the Euro is 1.37  dollars.  And it would require shipping, which would be at least $2,000  plus customs fees.

  

  

 The Lightning is a great bargain!!

  

 Doug Koenigsberg

  [quote][b]

N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Dave,

     I think my Esqual kit was probably the last one  that came through with the welded up stainless steel parts (central beam  assembly, brake/rudder pedal assembly).  I took one look at those and knew  immediately they were no way strong enough for aircraft use - I  threw them away.  The welding work was not aircraft quality and I  thought that stainless steel would not be strong enough for the assemblies they  were being used for - too easy to bend and too brittle.  

     Luckily, Pete and Nick has a Lightning  central beam assembly "close by" and it was a "close enough"  fit, so I talked them out of it (just like I later talked them out of the very  first cowling that was supposed to go on the prototype Lightning.  With  some extra fiberglass work on the bottom and trimming the aft end of top and  bottom, I got it to fit the Esqual).  

     They also had their welding shop in Wisconsin weld  me up a set of brake/rudder pedals so that solved those problems for me.   As you have probably heard, more than several Esquals have had brake/rudder  pedal failures or problems in the past.  I have also heard of several with  cracks in the original stainless steel central beam assembly - like the  photos you sent.  There were many other changes I made to my Esqual  during its build that I thought would either make the airplane stronger/safer or  that would add to the performance.  That is why I started calling it an  Esqual LS - which stands for Lightning Stuff. 

     I certainly hope the new Esqual factory has at  least made the central beam and brake/rudder pedal assembly changes to 4130  steel tubing.  If not, we may continue to see problems in the Esqual fleet  in the future.  

      

  

  In a message dated 3/9/2010 2:44:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  corky(at)hbci.com writes:

 [quote]   Buz

   I guess my photos did not come through, at the www.esqual.se    site go to alerts, they show an alert that one should be watching regarding    the gear support, I like the idea of the plate they added

   Dave

   [quote]     ---

davemcc

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 74

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:53 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Buz

 We all had to make many changes to our Esquals, this is one item I  missed.  If mine is stainless I will be doing some rework or removal.

 Thanks for reminding me, when I installed Matco brakes, I had the  motorcycle brakes left over--Nick still owes me a beer!

 Dave

 [quote]   ---

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Dave,  

   

Name the time and place and I will get you a couple!  

   

Nick  

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave

 Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:36 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: spar/gear bracket  

  

     

Buz  

    

We all had to make many changes to our Esquals, this is one item I missed.  If mine is stainless I will be doing some rework or removal.  

    

Thanks for reminding me, when I installed Matco brakes, I had the motorcycle brakes left over--Nick still owes me a beer!  

    

Dave  

  [quote]    

---

N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Nick / Dave,

     Can I get in on that beer give away / rebate  program?  I suggest Sun N Fun or Oshkosh for a location.  

 buz

  

  In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:04:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  info(at)flylightning.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

Name the time and    place and I will get you a couple!   

 Nick 	


  [quote][b]

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:59 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

I think both venues are appropriate…..Will add to the list!  

   

Nick  

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM

 Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:29 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: spar/gear bracket  

  

     

Nick / Dave,  

    

    Can I get in on that beer give away / rebate program?  I suggest Sun N Fun or Oshkosh for a location.    

    

buz  

    

   

      

In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:04:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, info(at)flylightning.net writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

Name the time and place and I will get you a couple!  

Nick    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List 	
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        [quote][b]

selwyn

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:47 am Post subject: Re: spar/gear bracket

I wonder how many Esquals had stainless centre sections?  Seems like a particularly silly move to me.



On the other hand, I'm familiar with one Esqual which has had a particularly trying life including hitting the ground hard enough to bend the main gear  so as to resemble a pair of elephant tusks ( along with other significant damage).  The centre section on this one is steel tube and it survived intact.  The design appears the same as the Lightning so I guess we can expect similar reserves of strength from our machines.

_________________
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66 VH-ELZ

Clive J

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:06 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

I visited the Esqual factory is 2003 and viewed many kits on the

production line. The one thing that jumped out to us was the poor

quality welding on the metal parts. Francesc admitted they weren't

pretty and soon after they used a different company to weld up the parts

(or a different welder/technique). The two kits I've had in England both

had very tidy looking metal parts with what looks to be good penetration

and coverage at all the welds (#39+40). 

The only stainless parts were the rudder pedals which seem adequate. The

replacement 'flute' is stainless but has a brace is quite heavy wall and

seems very solid.

Regards, Clive

--

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:23 pm Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Well glad to hear you got better parts than we did. Of course some of the

last kits actually came from Belgium so that may have something to do with

it. But I can tell you that the boxes we got were not welded from 4130 and

the tube thickness was very thin.



Nick



--

davemcc

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 74

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:44 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Guys

Has anyone had a problem with the spar bracket--NO do you have Esquals, NO. 

Do you think maybe this guy might have had some very bad landings? I guess 

yes.

This was meant for Buz because he has an Esqual, sorry I put it out for the 

Lightning group, two different airplanes.

Dave Mcc

---

Clive J

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:52 pm Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Dave there are lots of similarities and there is no Esqual group, Esqual

owners are all on here.  



The guys at Arion know the Esqual inside out and have great knowledge

for all Esqual owners. 



Several improvements in my aircraft have been through information from

the guys at Arion.



The changes they incorporated into the Lightning were based on

shortcomings of the Esqual.



Parallels will always exists between the two aircraft because of many

things.



The fact that the weak point on the central beam in one Esqual suggests

that that could be the weak point in the design (there is always one)

and therefore would be a good place to check the lightning in the event

of a heavy landing or many landing and high hours, regardless of what

it's made of or how it's welded.



Where you put it is just right as far as I'm concerned.



Thanks, Regards, Clive

--

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:46 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

In a message dated 3/16/2010 10:44:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  corky(at)hbci.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Guys

Has anyone had a problem with the spar bracket--NO do you    have Esquals, NO. 

Do you think maybe this guy might have had some very bad    landings? I guess 

yes.

This was meant for Buz because he has an Esqual,    sorry I put it out for the 

Lightning group, two different    airplanes.

Dave Mcc

	


 

  

 We replaced a spar box on an Esqual at Green Landings.   The gear  had broken lose on both sides and was a disaster waiting to happen.  The  small tubes had broken or cracked, the sockets were lose and floppy.  I  believe it was the stainless steel box.    Not a good  design.

  

 Yes, it could have been bad landings, but the gear did not  bend.   From a design perspective, I think it is important that the  gear bend and deform long before damaging the box and cabin structure.   Did  not happen that way in the Esqual.

  

 FWIW

  

 Doug Koenigsberg

  [quote][b]

Clive J

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:03 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

'Did  not happen that way in the Esqual'

I ran mine off the runway last year and the gear legs + engine mount

bent, nothing else is damaged, as I said though not sure on the heritage

of the parts. 

Certainly not stainless, you can see that, + like the engine mount a

real bitch to drill. 

I will give it another inspection but the dimensional check showed no

deformation.



Thanks for the extra feedback Doug, Regards Clive



--

davemcc

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 74

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:51 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Mine also is not stainless, I think I will plate mine to strengthen it some.

Dave

---

davemcc

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 74

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:54 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Doug

 I usually get into trouble when I start thinking, but

 it make me wonder, it this caused from landings or from shimmy

  

 Dave McCorquodale

 [quote]   ---

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:12 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

In a message dated 3/17/2010 7:54:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  corky(at)hbci.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Doug

   I usually get into trouble when I start thinking, but

   it make me wonder, it this caused from landings or from shimmy

    

   Dave McCorquodale

	


 

  

 The plane was flown off a grass field for the previous 3 years, so doubt  that it was shimmy.

  

 There was some history during that time of rough landings.

  

 Doug

  [quote][b]

malannx(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:57 am Post subject: spar/gear bracket

Have followed the posts on the failure of the central ladder beam with  interest. I have posted photos of the fix for an Esqual with a chrome moly  frame. I won't identify the owner but the fix is from a certified aircraft  welder. 

 The damage was caused by operating out of an extemely rough grass strip and  I would surmise the damage was done taxying, not heavy landings. This plane was  the catalyst for the "Alerts" section on the http://www.esqual.se/ website. I have  landed on that airfield once and I was concerned that the nose leg would stay  intact till I finished taxying. I have the flat plate spring steel undercarriage  legs which seem indestructible but I have the square carbon fibre nose leg. I  have always worried about it. It has no flex in it, unlike alloy nose  legs.

 Some time ago an Esqual was stalled in from a considerable height(an  incipient spin had developed) The usual bits on the front of the aircraft were  wrecked and some wing leading edge damage but the central ladder/spars remained  undamaged. The pilot had a sore back. I reckon the design of the  Lightning/Esqual is very strong in that area.

 Takeoffs are optional, landings mandatory. "Green Landings" 

  

 Malcolm Ferguson

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