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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:09 am Post subject: Autopilot |
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IIRC there was a discussion awhile back about the need for an autopilot. Just spent about 15 hours flying from KFFZ, KBGD, 3MY, KLAF, KBBG, KDHT, to KFFZ. If you look at the flightaware .com for my aircraft you will see the need. The KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM. The weather had good VFR ceilings and visibilities but the constant light to moderate turbulence and 30-50 knot headwind components was fatiguing even with the Trutrak VSGV. The flight was made mostly at 17" and 2250 RPM to keep the IAS below Va for my weight. I tried numerous block altitudes all to no avail. As a side note , at one point the GRT Sport backup had a software lockup which required an in flight reboot. Pushing the two outboard keys, causes a software reboot without rebooting the AHRS. The Cheltons with the certified software did not miss a beat. The ganged switch for the autopilot worked well also. I switched sources for autopilot input from the none to Chelton and then GRT. On the GRT the EFIS needs to be in ENAV or HDG mode or you take an unwanted excursion off course. The Cheltons must have a flight plan or heading mode for Trutrak guidance; no source causes the Trutrak to maintain heading and altitude. IMHO all builders should consider at least a basic autopilot to effectively use the aircraft cross country.
[quote][b]
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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: Autopilot |
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"KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM"!! I just did that in the Maule, 8NC8 to KXFL, with a 10 knot tail wind and it felt fast even though I was flying the '10 in my head.
Bill "working on the pants" Watson
DLM wrote: | Quote: | IIRC there was a discussion awhile back about the need for an autopilot. Just spent about 15 hours flying from KFFZ, KBGD, 3MY, KLAF, KBBG, KDHT, to KFFZ. If you look at the flightaware .com for my aircraft you will see the need. The KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM. The weather had good VFR ceilings and visibilities but the constant light to moderate turbulence and 30-50 knot headwind components was fatiguing even with the Trutrak VSGV. The flight was made mostly at 17" and 2250 RPM to keep the IAS below Va for my weight. I tried numerous block altitudes all to no avail. As a side note , at one point the GRT Sport backup had a software lockup which required an in flight reboot. Pushing the two outboard keys, causes a software reboot without rebooting the AHRS. The Cheltons with the certified software did not miss a beat. The ganged switch for the autopilot worked well also. I switched sources for autopilot input from the none to Chelton and then GRT. On the GRT the EFIS needs to be in ENAV or HDG mode or you take an unwanted excursion off course. The Cheltons must have a flight plan or heading mode for Trutrak guidance; no source causes the Trutrak to maintain heading and altitude. IMHO all builders should consider at least a basic autopilot to effectively use the aircraft cross country.
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scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: Autopilot |
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With the -10 it should have been around 2 hours 42 minutes.
Scott Schmidtscottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 9:12:43 AM
Subject: Re: Autopilot
"KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM"!! I just did that in the Maule, 8NC8 to KXFL, with a 10 knot tail wind and it felt fast even though I was flying the '10 in my head.
Bill "working on the pants" Watson
DLM wrote: | Quote: | IIRC there was a discussion awhile back about the need for an autopilot. Just spent about 15 hours flying from KFFZ, KBGD, 3MY, KLAF, KBBG, KDHT, to KFFZ. If you look at the flightaware .com for my aircraft you will see the need. The KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM. The weather had good VFR ceilings and visibilities but the constant light to moderate turbulence and 30-50 knot headwind components was fatiguing even with the Trutrak VSGV. The flight was made mostly at 17" and 2250 RPM to keep the IAS below Va for my weight. I tried numerous block altitudes all to no avail. As a side note , at one point the GRT Sport backup had a software lockup which required an in flight reboot. Pushing the two outboard keys, causes a software reboot without rebooting the AHRS. The Cheltons with the certified software did not miss a beat. The ganged switch for the autopilot worked well also. I switched sources for autopilot input from the none to Chelton and then GRT. On the GRT the EFIS needs to be in ENAV or HDG mode or you take an unwanted excursion off course. The Cheltons must have a flight plan or heading mode for Trutrak guidance; no source causes the Trutrak to maintain heading and altitude. IMHO all builders should consider at least a basic autopilot to effectively use the aircraft cross country.
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[quote]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:52 am Post subject: Autopilot |
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That's assuming calm air. Anyone wanting to operate above Va with 30-50 knot headwinds and in significantly turbulent air for hours should prepare for a thorough inspection for structural damage upon landing unless the aircraft is already in several pieces upon reaching the ground. The RV10, IIRC, has a gross weight maneuvering speed of 125 KIAS; Maneuvering speed reduces as gross weight decreases. My TC177RG had a Va of 115 KIAS at 2800 and reducing to 95 KIAS at 2200. My expectation is that the Va reduces from 125 KIAS as weight decreases, probably to about 105 KIAS. A call to Vans should confirm design numbers.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:28 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autopilot
With the -10 it should have been around 2 hours 42 minutes.
Scott Schmidtscottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 9:12:43 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autopilot
"KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM"!! I just did that in the Maule, 8NC8 to KXFL, with a 10 knot tail wind and it felt fast even though I was flying the '10 in my head.
Bill "working on the pants" Watson
DLM wrote: | Quote: | IIRC there was a discussion awhile back about the need for an autopilot. Just spent about 15 hours flying from KFFZ, KBGD, 3MY, KLAF, KBBG, KDHT, to KFFZ. If you look at the flightaware .com for my aircraft you will see the need. The KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM. The weather had good VFR ceilings and visibilities but the constant light to moderate turbulence and 30-50 knot headwind components was fatiguing even with the Trutrak VSGV. The flight was made mostly at 17" and 2250 RPM to keep the IAS below Va for my weight. I tried numerous block altitudes all to no avail. As a side note , at one point the GRT Sport backup had a software lockup which required an in flight reboot. Pushing the two outboard keys, causes a software reboot without rebooting the AHRS. The Cheltons with the certified software did not miss a beat. The ganged switch for the autopilot worked well also. I switched sources for autopilot input from the none to Chelton and then GRT. On the GRT the EFIS needs to be in ENAV or HDG mode or you take an unwanted excursion off course. The Cheltons must have a flight plan or heading mode for Trutrak guidance; no source causes the Trutrak to maintain heading and altitude. IMHO all builders should consider at least a basic autopilot to effectively use the aircraft cross country.
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[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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dmaib(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject: Autopilot |
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A long flight in light to moderate turbulence should not over-stress any airplane. You probably have a g meter on your Chelton or your GRT and it will tell the true story. Va is not necessarily related to turbulent air penetration speed IIRC. Va is the speed that full deflection of flight controls will not over-stress the airframe. (Some caveats concerning full rudder application one direction and then the other in rapid sequence).
David Maib
40559
flying
On Mar 27, 2010, at 3:51 PM, DLM wrote:
That's assuming calm air. Anyone wanting to operate above Va with 30-50 knot headwinds and in significantly turbulent air for hours should prepare for a thorough inspection for structural damage upon landing unless the aircraft is already in several pieces upon reaching the ground. The RV10, IIRC, has a gross weight maneuvering speed of 125 KIAS; Maneuvering speed reduces as gross weight decreases. My TC177RG had a Va of 115 KIAS at 2800 and reducing to 95 KIAS at 2200. My expectation is that the Va reduces from 125 KIAS as weight decreases, probably to about 105 KIAS. A call to Vans should confirm design numbers.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:28 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Autopilot
With the -10 it should have been around 2 hours 42 minutes.
Scott Schmidtscottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com (scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com)
From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 9:12:43 AM
Subject: Re: Autopilot
"KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM"!! I just did that in the Maule, 8NC8 to KXFL, with a 10 knot tail wind and it felt fast even though I was flying the '10 in my head.
Bill "working on the pants" Watson
DLM wrote: | Quote: | IIRC there was a discussion awhile back about the need for an autopilot. Just spent about 15 hours flying from KFFZ, KBGD, 3MY, KLAF, KBBG, KDHT, to KFFZ. If you look at the flightaware .com for my aircraft you will see the need. The KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM. The weather had good VFR ceilings and visibilities but the constant light to moderate turbulence and 30-50 knot headwind components was fatiguing even with the Trutrak VSGV. The flight was made mostly at 17" and 2250 RPM to keep the IAS below Va for my weight. I tried numerous block altitudes all to no avail. As a side note , at one point the GRT Sport backup had a software lockup which required an in flight reboot. Pushing the two outboard keys, causes a software reboot without rebooting the AHRS. The Cheltons with the certified software did not miss a beat. The ganged switch for the autopilot worked well also. I switched sources for autopilot input from the none to Chelton and then GRT. On the GRT the EFIS needs to be in ENAV or HDG mode or you take an unwanted excursion off course. The Cheltons must have a flight plan or heading mode for Trutrak guidance; no source causes the Trutrak to maintain heading and altitude. IMHO all builders should consider at least a basic autopilot to effectively use the aircraft cross country.
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rv10builder(at)ericksonjc
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: Autopilot |
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I think you are confusing Va with Vno. Vno (Normal Operating airspeed) is the airspeed that should not be exceeded except in smooth air. It’s the top of the green arc if your airspeed indicator has the correct speeds on it. Va is *generally* (with some well known exceptions) the maximum airspeed at which abrupt max deflection control inputs should not damage your aircraft. Vno is good for up to 30 ft/sec up/downdrafts (moderate turbulence). If you are expecting severe turbulence, rather than slowing to Va, I would recommend using Vno and a heading change to go somewhere else… J
John
RV-10 Wings
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DLM
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 1:52 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Autopilot
That's assuming calm air. Anyone wanting to operate above Va with 30-50 knot headwinds and in significantly turbulent air for hours should prepare for a thorough inspection for structural damage upon landing unless the aircraft is already in several pieces upon reaching the ground. The RV10, IIRC, has a gross weight maneuvering speed of 125 KIAS; Maneuvering speed reduces as gross weight decreases. My TC177RG had a Va of 115 KIAS at 2800 and reducing to 95 KIAS at 2200. My expectation is that the Va reduces from 125 KIAS as weight decreases, probably to about 105 KIAS. A call to Vans should confirm design numbers.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:28 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Autopilot
With the -10 it should have been around 2 hours 42 minutes.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 9:12:43 AM
Subject: Re: Autopilot
"KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM"!! I just did that in the Maule, 8NC8 to KXFL, with a 10 knot tail wind and it felt fast even though I was flying the '10 in my head.
Bill "working on the pants" Watson
DLM wrote:
IIRC there was a discussion awhile back about the need for an autopilot. Just spent about 15 hours flying from KFFZ, KBGD, 3MY, KLAF, KBBG, KDHT, to KFFZ. If you look at the flightaware .com for my aircraft you will see the need. The KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM. The weather had good VFR ceilings and visibilities but the constant light to moderate turbulence and 30-50 knot headwind components was fatiguing even with the Trutrak VSGV. The flight was made mostly at 17" and 2250 RPM to keep the IAS below Va for my weight. I tried numerous block altitudes all to no avail. As a side note , at one point the GRT Sport backup had a software lockup which required an in flight reboot. Pushing the two outboard keys, causes a software reboot without rebooting the AHRS. The Cheltons with the certified software did not miss a beat. The ganged switch for the autopilot worked well also. I switched sources for autopilot input from the none to Chelton and then GRT. On the GRT the EFIS needs to be in ENAV or HDG mode or you take an unwanted excursion off course. The Cheltons must have a flight plan or heading mode for Trutrak guidance; no source causes the Trutrak to maintain heading and altitude. IMHO all builders should consider at least a basic autopilot to effectively use the aircraft cross country.
do not archive | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c |
012345678901234567
[quote][b]
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scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: Autopilot |
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David, I didn't see your post initially. I was responding to the Maule with a 10 knot tail wind.
I've done the headwinds you are talking about, they are no fun.
-Scott
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 27, 2010, at 1:51 PM, "DLM" <dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] That's assuming calm air. Anyone wanting to operate above Va with 30-50 knot headwinds and in significantly turbulent air for hours should prepare for a thorough inspection for structural damage upon landing unless the aircraft is already in several pieces upon reaching the ground. The RV10, IIRC, has a gross weight maneuvering speed of 125 KIAS; Maneuvering speed reduces as gross weight decreases. My TC177RG had a Va of 115 KIAS at 2800 and reducing to 95 KIAS at 2200. My expectation is that the Va reduces from 125 KIAS as weight decreases, probably to about 105 KIAS. A call to Vans should confirm design numbers.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:28 AM
To: [url=mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com]rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]
Subject: Re: Autopilot
With the -10 it should have been around 2 hours 42 minutes.
Scott Schmidtscottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com (scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com)
From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
To: [url=mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com]rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]
Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 9:12:43 AM
Subject: Re: Autopilot
"KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM"!! I just did that in the Maule, 8NC8 to KXFL, with a 10 knot tail wind and it felt fast even though I was flying the '10 in my head.
Bill "working on the pants" Watson
DLM wrote: | Quote: | IIRC there was a discussion awhile back about the need for an autopilot. Just spent about 15 hours flying from KFFZ, KBGD, 3MY, KLAF, KBBG, KDHT, to KFFZ. If you look at the flightaware .com for my aircraft you will see the need. The KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM. The weather had good VFR ceilings and visibilities but the constant light to moderate turbulence and 30-50 knot headwind components was fatiguing even with the Trutrak VSGV. The flight was made mostly at 17" and 2250 RPM to keep the IAS below Va for my weight. I tried numerous block altitudes all to no avail. As a side note , at one point the GRT Sport backup had a software lockup which required an in flight reboot. Pushing the two outboard keys, causes a software reboot without rebooting the AHRS. The Cheltons with the certified software did not miss a beat. The ganged switch for the autopilot worked well also. I switched sources for autopilot input from the none to Chelton and then GRT. On the GRT the EFIS needs to be in ENAV or HDG mode or you take an unwanted excursion off course. The Cheltons must have a flight plan or heading mode for Trutrak guidance; no source causes the Trutrak to maintain heading and altitude. IMHO all builders should consider at least a basic autopilot to effectively use the aircraft cross country.
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[b]
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Autopilot |
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DLM, you did the right thing! I can see you have done your studying. Slow down to Va if you feel the need to tighten your seatbelt. Slow down even more if your light, as your plane will accelerate faster from a gust or turbulence. If your at Va(higher aoa) your wing will stall before the g load limit is reached of our airplane(+3.8,-1.9). You can recover from a stall at altitude, but you won't recover from structural failure. If you are above Va you run the risk of breaking or bending your airplane. You might get away with just making it uncomfortable for your passengers and loosening some rivets. At Vno a 30 fps(which is just a design standard) gust may not hurt your airplane but that is by no means the highest recorded gust. I don't want to run into that 50 fps gust in my RV-10 at Vno, and definitely not the 100 fps gust normally found in thunderstorms. Highest recorded was 224 fps. [/quote]
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Wayne G. |
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Lew Gallagher
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Autopilot |
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Hey David,
I was the one trying to convince the owner/pilot that I'm helping, to add the AP back before X-mas (thanks again for all who chimed in then) and his wife was the one who sprang for the AFS (trutrak) system for X-mas to go with his AFS system.
As a non-flyer/pilot, I understand very little of the language of these current posts, but I follow ANY positive threads about the AP and try to pass them on.
The AP is installed and functions with ground tests. He was thinking of first flight today, but did some more taxiing, brake testing instead. Maybe Monday!
Here's a related question (and again, I apologize for my ignorance): the plans called for a toggle switch to be mounted on the panel to select between GPS or EFIS input to the AP. That was done, but the tech guys who installed it here aren't sure how to test which position is which, or even what the purpose is. I'm sure that will be answered later after the fly off period is done and he has more interest in the finer bells and whistles, but I thought I'd go ahead and ask. Probably in the AFS manual or he could call them later, but respond if you feel like it.
Later, - Lew
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_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed ! |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: Autopilot |
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Almost all switches that select between two 'sources' will be a single
pole (one set of contacts), double throw (has two positions) referred as
a SPDT switch. A common toggle switch has a 'bat handle' (but may also
be flat for aesthetic looks) and looking at the side of the switch the
common lug is in the middle and the 'source' lugs to either side. The
connection is made between the two contacts OPPOSITE from the side the
handle points. A slide switch will close the contacts on the side that
the switch handle is moved TO.
Other switches will have multiple sets DPDT (double pole) 3PDT (3 sets) etc.
Switches for on/off are single pole (SPST) and can also have multiple
sets (DPST) but they aren't terribly common.
The purpose of the switch is to select which equipment provides guidance
to the autopilot ..... the GPS or EFIS .... you answered that part of
the question yourself. The position of the toggle (above) shows what
lugs are 'closed', and following the appropriate wire back to it's piece
of equipment will tell you how to orient the switch.
In flight, turning off one of the autopilot sources and noting the
reaction of the autopilot will tell you what position the switch is in
and you can add the appropriate label. Not the recommended way .....
you should have the switch properly labeled before flight as other
problems could have the same symptoms.
Hope I didn't confuse you more.
Linn
Lew Gallagher wrote:
| Quote: |
Hey David,
I was the one trying to convince the owner/pilot that I'm helping, to add the AP back before X-mas (thanks again for all who chimed in then) and his wife was the one who sprang for the AFS (trutrak) system for X-mas to go with his AFS system.
As a non-flyer/pilot, I understand very little of the language of these current posts, but I follow ANY positive threads about the AP and try to pass them on.
The AP is installed and functions with ground tests. He was thinking of first flight today, but did some more taxiing, brake testing instead. Maybe Monday!
Here's a related question (and again, I apologize for my ignorance): the plans called for a toggle switch to be mounted on the panel to select between GPS or EFIS input to the AP. That was done, but the tech guys who installed it here aren't sure how to test which position is which, or even what the purpose is. I'm sure that will be answered later after the fly off period is done and he has more interest in the finer bells and whistles, but I thought I'd go ahead and ask. Probably in the AFS manual or he could call them later, but respond if you feel like it.
Later, - Lew
--------
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Avionics in, engine started!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291998#291998
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 141
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: Autopilot |
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Lew,
We had the switch installed per the schematics from AFS, but now they claim it is not needed (Software works differently). We have removed it from the panel. The AFS AP should be getting all steering commands from the EFIS via the ARINC. No need to install the switch.
At least that is what we have been told recently.
Jim Combs (N312F - Flying)
On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Lew Gallagher <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)>
Hey David,
I was the one trying to convince the owner/pilot that I'm helping, to add the AP back before X-mas (thanks again for all who chimed in then) and his wife was the one who sprang for the AFS (trutrak) system for X-mas to go with his AFS system.
As a non-flyer/pilot, I understand very little of the language of these current posts, but I follow ANY positive threads about the AP and try to pass them on.
The AP is installed and functions with ground tests. He was thinking of first flight today, but did some more taxiing, brake testing instead. Maybe Monday!
Here's a related question (and again, I apologize for my ignorance): the plans called for a toggle switch to be mounted on the panel to select between GPS or EFIS input to the AP. That was done, but the tech guys who installed it here aren't sure how to test which position is which, or even what the purpose is. I'm sure that will be answered later after the fly off period is done and he has more interest in the finer bells and whistles, but I thought I'd go ahead and ask. Probably in the AFS manual or he could call them later, but respond if you feel like it.
Later, - Lew
--------
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Avionics in, engine started!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291998#291998
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RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008 |
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 141
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: Autopilot |
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Linn,
The switch on the schematics had to be double pole because it was switching a RS-429 signal. RS-429 is differential and required two sets of leads to be toggled.
We have been told by AFS the switch is no longer needed.
Jim Combs
On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net (pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net (pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net)>
Almost all switches that select between two 'sources' will be a single pole (one set of contacts), double throw (has two positions) referred as a SPDT switch. A common toggle switch has a 'bat handle' (but may also be flat for aesthetic looks) and looking at the side of the switch the common lug is in the middle and the 'source' lugs to either side. The connection is made between the two contacts OPPOSITE from the side the handle points. A slide switch will close the contacts on the side that the switch handle is moved TO.
Other switches will have multiple sets DPDT (double pole) 3PDT (3 sets) etc.
Switches for on/off are single pole (SPST) and can also have multiple sets (DPST) but they aren't terribly common.
The purpose of the switch is to select which equipment provides guidance to the autopilot ..... the GPS or EFIS .... you answered that part of the question yourself. The position of the toggle (above) shows what lugs are 'closed', and following the appropriate wire back to it's piece of equipment will tell you how to orient the switch. In flight, turning off one of the autopilot sources and noting the reaction of the autopilot will tell you what position the switch is in and you can add the appropriate label. Not the recommended way ..... you should have the switch properly labeled before flight as other problems could have the same symptoms.
Hope I didn't confuse you more.
Linn
Lew Gallagher wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)>
Hey David,
I was the one trying to convince the owner/pilot that I'm helping, to add the AP back before X-mas (thanks again for all who chimed in then) and his wife was the one who sprang for the AFS (trutrak) system for X-mas to go with his AFS system.
As a non-flyer/pilot, I understand very little of the language of these current posts, but I follow ANY positive threads about the AP and try to pass them on.
The AP is installed and functions with ground tests. He was thinking of first flight today, but did some more taxiing, brake testing instead. Maybe Monday!
Here's a related question (and again, I apologize for my ignorance): the plans called for a toggle switch to be mounted on the panel to select between GPS or EFIS input to the AP. That was done, but the tech guys who installed it here aren't sure how to test which position is which, or even what the purpose is. I'm sure that will be answered later after the fly off period is done and he has more interest in the finer bells and whistles, but I thought I'd go ahead and ask. Probably in the AFS manual or he could call them later, but respond if you feel like it.
Later, - Lew
--------
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Avionics in, engine started!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291998#291998
|
===========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
[b]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: Autopilot |
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There was no other place to go. Home base is Phoenix area. The entire states of AZ an NM had a forecast of moderate or better surface to 15000 for the entire states. (DHT surface conditions today were 330 at 36 with gusts to 40). Winds, yesterday, at 12000 were 30-50 kts from the northwest. This weather is not uncommon; especially in late afternoon in summer. The ride is like a roller coaster. If the pilot chooses he can jockey the power from idle to full power to try and maintain an altitude or ask for the block and let the AP do it at some moderate power setting. if you are riding in the back of the Boeing, the first thing you hear when the airplane starts to buck, is a noticeable power reduction. when operating at Vno in turbulence there can be tendency to allow airspeed to rapidly increase whether or not experiencing horizontal gusts. Note that airspeed is measured at one point on the left wing while other parts may be experiencing greater or lesser airspeeds. There are V tailed Bonanza drivers who lost their tails when allowing the nose to drop slightly on descent in turbulence. The FAA finally got around to ADing the tails after a statistically significant number of fatals.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Erickson
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:42 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autopilot
I think you are confusing Va with Vno. Vno (Normal Operating airspeed) is the airspeed that should not be exceeded except in smooth air. It’s the top of the green arc if your airspeed indicator has the correct speeds on it. Va is *generally* (with some well known exceptions) the maximum airspeed at which abrupt max deflection control inputs should not damage your aircraft. Vno is good for up to 30 ft/sec up/downdrafts (moderate turbulence). If you are expecting severe turbulence, rather than slowing to Va, I would recommend using Vno and a heading change to go somewhere else… J
John
RV-10 Wings
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DLM
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 1:52 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Autopilot
That's assuming calm air. Anyone wanting to operate above Va with 30-50 knot headwinds and in significantly turbulent air for hours should prepare for a thorough inspection for structural damage upon landing unless the aircraft is already in several pieces upon reaching the ground. The RV10, IIRC, has a gross weight maneuvering speed of 125 KIAS; Maneuvering speed reduces as gross weight decreases. My TC177RG had a Va of 115 KIAS at 2800 and reducing to 95 KIAS at 2200. My expectation is that the Va reduces from 125 KIAS as weight decreases, probably to about 105 KIAS. A call to Vans should confirm design numbers.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:28 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Autopilot
With the -10 it should have been around 2 hours 42 minutes.
Scott Schmidt
scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com
From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 9:12:43 AM
Subject: Re: Autopilot
"KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM"!! I just did that in the Maule, 8NC8 to KXFL, with a 10 knot tail wind and it felt fast even though I was flying the '10 in my head.
Bill "working on the pants" Watson
DLM wrote:
IIRC there was a discussion awhile back about the need for an autopilot. Just spent about 15 hours flying from KFFZ, KBGD, 3MY, KLAF, KBBG, KDHT, to KFFZ. If you look at the flightaware .com for my aircraft you will see the need. The KDHT to KFFZ was 4:30 for 475 NM. The weather had good VFR ceilings and visibilities but the constant light to moderate turbulence and 30-50 knot headwind components was fatiguing even with the Trutrak VSGV. The flight was made mostly at 17" and 2250 RPM to keep the IAS below Va for my weight. I tried numerous block altitudes all to no avail. As a side note , at one point the GRT Sport backup had a software lockup which required an in flight reboot. Pushing the two outboard keys, causes a software reboot without rebooting the AHRS. The Cheltons with the certified software did not miss a beat. The ganged switch for the autopilot worked well also. I switched sources for autopilot input from the none to Chelton and then GRT. On the GRT the EFIS needs to be in ENAV or HDG mode or you take an unwanted excursion off course. The Cheltons must have a flight plan or heading mode for Trutrak guidance; no source causes the Trutrak to maintain heading and altitude. IMHO all builders should consider at least a basic autopilot to effectively use the aircraft cross country.
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Autopilot |
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"Va is *generally* (with some well known exceptions) the maximum airspeed at which abrupt max deflection control inputs should not damage your aircraft. "
Just to nitpick, someone above has the correct definition of Va. It's the speed at which an accelerated stall happens just as you hit the design load limit (3.8 g for us).
No need to call Vans about Va at lower weights. It scales exactly as stall speed does, e.g., as the square root of the weight. If you are 20% below gross then Va goes down about 10% (really 10.56%) (half the percentage being an approximation to the square root).
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: Autopilot |
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According to the Vans site, gross weight stall occurs at 55kts. Assuming a
3.8 load factor, the Va number is 55 times the square root of 3.8 or 55*1.95
or 107 kts. So maybe a call to Krueger is warranted. If the Va of 125 kts is
accurate then the design load factor is higher than normal category.
--
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orchidman
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Autopilot |
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| Jim Combs wrote: | Linn,�
The switch on the schematics had to be double pole because it was switching a RS-429 signal.� RS-429 is differential and required two sets of leads to be toggled.
We have been told by AFS the switch is no longer needed.
Jim Combs |
I believe that is correct if you have the AFS TT AP. However, if you have the stock TT VSGV, then the switching can still be used. I have a 430W and I switch my source for the AHARS signal and I also have a 496 and I have a second switch for the RS-232 signal. One from the the 430W and the other from the 496. The TT AP needs a serial source of GPS location and I can switch it in case of a problem with one or the other.
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Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: Autopilot |
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My treatise on switches wasn't meant to be specific for his application, but as general info. I help troubleshoot a lot of problems that are due to the switch being mounted 'upside down'. I was hoping to help more than just this one person ........ who really doesn't need it as it turns out.
I've never worked with ARINC RS-429 before and had to go look it up!!! 
Linn
orchidman wrote: [quote] | Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "orchidman" <gary(at)wingscc.com> (gary(at)wingscc.com)
Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | Linn,�
The switch on the schematics had to be double pole because it was switching a RS-429 signal.� RS-429 is differential and required two sets of leads to be toggled.
We have been told by AFS the switch is no longer needed.
Jim Combs
|
I believe that is correct if you have the AFS TT AP. However, if you have the stock TT VSGV, then the switching can still be used. I have a 430W and I switch my source for the AHARS signal and I also have a 496 and I have a second switch for the RS-232 signal. One from the the 430W and the other from the 496. The TT AP needs a serial source of GPS location and I can switch it in case of a problem with one or the other.
--------
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying) |
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Autopilot |
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"According to the Vans site, gross weight stall occurs at 55kts."
Isn't this with full flaps? Va should be 1.95 times the no flaps, calibrated stall speed.
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Bob Turner
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Autopilot |
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Yes Bob, no flap stall speed should be used.
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Wayne G. |
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject: Autopilot |
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After reviewing the development of the RV10, the normal category tests were
done and the same wing fixture tested and passed all FAR 23 tests at 5.7 Gs
that is 1.5 times the normal category 3.8g. Solving the equation of the
square root of 3.8 divided into the Va value of 125 KIAS; the clean stall
computes to 65 KIAS. Hence the published stall on the performance chart must
be with flaps extended. The likely value for a gross weight value is 64 KIAS
and a multiplier of 1.95 which gives 125 KIAS.
--
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