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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

I found in my experiments with this situation that a slow  flat turn was better than a steep quick turn. Keeping that in mind if there is  any increase in G forces it was negligent, therefore the stall would not  increase. Of course I had VG's  

  

 Larry

  

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,  which includes my email address.

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by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

his prop is going to spin and slow him down a lot. All he had to do was to apply throttle and he is running again, so the danger that he put himself into was no worse than any power off landing, whether it be straight in or not.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.  

   
	


Have you ever heard of an accelerated stall.     It usually happens when yanking and banking.     Maybe I am out of place because I have not seen the video. But I have not seen these thoughts expressed in this thread.   If the turns are less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,,     you may be ok…   if the turn is  60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above.   You best know what the stall looks and feels like, and at what speed,  in that configuration.   In these conditions the stall can occur well above the straight and level  stall speed. And a stall at a high bank angle at 500 ft and under can cause a sudden  end to a very good day.  Even if your engine is running.  

   

Boyd Young  

       [quote][b]

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:12 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video

Hello Pat,

  The wind would have to be blowing on the order of 10 to 15 knots (an estimate) down the runway to be in danger of running out of runway on the landing roll.



I recommend you not taking this information and applying it to your airplane.  From your description of the way you plane can take off, it obviously has much different flight characteristics than mine.  I would highly recommend you go to altitude and practice full power climb to descending 180.  If you get comfortable doing them at altitude, you may want to work up to finding a nice safe place and doing some testing yourself.  Just hearing about someone else doing it will not replace training or practice.



Best Wishes

Jason



 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  Jason Omelchuck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello All,



 One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height required to 

 get back to a runway after take off.>>



	


Neatly done and a good video.. The cut back of the engine and the lowering 

of the nose were simultaneous.  In a real emergency you will lose a couple 

of seconds at least wondering `What the *******has happened`.  Also there 

was no or very little wind. A few knots on your nose turning rapidly to a 

few knots up your tailfeathers will reduce your flying speed and INCREASE 

you ground speed and the length of your landing run considerably.



You took off  from pretty well down the runway and consequently had a good 

length of runway behind you to land on. My Xtra would have been at 500 feet 

while you were still on the ground and in the event of a 180 degree turn 

back there would have been considerably less useable runway.



I dont know how much difference there is in the glide produced by a stopped 

prop as opposed to a windmilling one., perhaps someone has the figures.



Thanks for doing the experiment. I shall make sure I do not turn back at 

500ft or less.



Cheers



Pat

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:15 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video

Hello Boyd,



Again, a descending (power off) turn at constant air speed is a 1G maneuver.



Jason



[quote="by0ung(at)brigham.net"]his prop is going to spin and slow him down a lot. All he had to do was to apply throttle and he is running again, so the danger that he put himself into was no worse than any power off landing, whether it be straight in or not.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.  

   

	


Have you ever heard of an accelerated stall.     It usually happens when yanking and banking.     Maybe I am out of place because I have not seen the video. But I have not seen these thoughts expressed in this thread.   If the turns are less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,,     you may be okâ€¦   if the turn is  60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above.   You best know what the stall looks and feels like, and at what speed,  in that configuration.   In these conditions the stall can occur well above the straight and level  stall speed. And a stall at a high bank angle at 500 ft and under can cause a sudden  end to a very good day.  Even if your engine is running.  

   

Boyd Young  

        	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:19 am Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

At 11:00 PM 4/26/2010, Jason Omelchuck wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  In a descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed your airplane will stall at the same speed it does straight ahead with power off... 	


 Jason,



 This is simply not correct.  I suggest you review "accelerated stalls".  In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of the bank angle.  The effect is small for shallow turns, but, for example, in a 60° banked turn when you're pulling 2g, the stall speed is 41% higher.  



 Trying to turn too tight at low altitude, whether it's a flat skidding turn leading to the inside wing stalling, or an accelerated stall, is what does in a lot of pilots.



 -Dana

 

 --

  Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.    [quote][b]

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video

Hello Dana,



If you are not descending  and under power you are correct.  If you are power off and loosing airspeed, you are correct.  If you are power off and descending at a constant airspeed, it is a 1G maneuver.



Regards

Jason



[quote="Dana"]At 11:00 PM 4/26/2010, Jason Omelchuck wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  In a descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed your airplane will stall at the same speed it does straight ahead with power off... 	


 Jason,



 This is simply not correct.  I suggest you review "accelerated stalls".  In a coordinated turn, the stall speed increases as a function of the bank angle.  The effect is small for shallow turns, but, for example, in a 60ï¿½ banked turn when you're pulling 2g, the stall speed is 41% higher.  



 Trying to turn too tight at low altitude, whether it's a flat skidding turn leading to the inside wing stalling, or an accelerated stall, is what does in a lot of pilots.



 -Dana

 

 --

  Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.     	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:38 am Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

Kolb pilots,



Another thing that I always try to make a habit  when I  take off is  

whenever I reach the point  where an abort straight ahead back to the  

remaining runway becomes doubtful or unlikely is to  drift off to the  

downwind side of the runway from whatever crosswind there may be, so  

that a turn back to the runway is into the wind and also requires less  

degree of turn to reach the runway again.

I like to stack the deck in my favor as much as possible when I am  

taking off.



Also being aggressive in air  speed and bank angle in a turn back  

reduces the time required to make a 180 and shortens the distance back  

to the threshold.



IOW,  Control the airplane, don't let the airplane control YOU.  YOU put  

the airplane down, don't let the airplane put YOU down.



Gene

On Apr 26, 2010, at 11:00 PM, Jason Omelchuck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 Hello Crystal,



 In a descending (power off) turn at constant airspeed your airplane  

 will stall at the same speed it does straight ahead with power off.   

 The risk is keeping the turn coordinated so that remains true for  

 both wings.  The tendency is to try to put in too much rudder to  

 tighten the turn and you then run the risk of the inside wing  

 stalling. when I first started practicing at altitude, I noticed I  

 could feel the wing start to bobble at stall and that it would  

 increase the bank and start the beginning of a spiral.  It was a  

 little unnerving at first, but I noticed I could keep it from  

 developing by a little opposite rudder and of course getting the  

 nose down ever so slightly to keep the airspeed up.  I did practice  

 (at altitude) going from a full throttle climb to a descending 180  

 turn while trying to keep a constant airspeed.  One of the things I  

 think I have learned while doing this close to the ground is that  

 the fear of hitting the ground is a very ingrained in my brain.  It !

 is an un-natural act to put the nose down to save yourself from  

 hitting the ground.  I believe this has caused many an airplane  

 accident because it is just does not make sense, your instinct  

 really wants to pull back on the stick to extend the glide just that  

 little bit more.  This sensation does not get triggered when flying  

 at altitude.  I believe this is the reason that many a Kolb landing  

 gear has been bent by people who are used to flying GA aircraft.  To  

 the pilot of a faster airplane, the angle of approach that must be  

 kept close to the ground before round out is alarming until you do  

 it many times.



 My $.02 worth

 Jason



 cristalclear13 wrote:

>

> Jason Omelchuck wrote:

>> Hello All,

>>

>> One of the things I have always wanted to test was the height  

>> required to get back to a runway after take off.  On Sunday, I got  

>> a chance to do some testing and I got a video of it.  The runway I  

>> am flying from is about 2500 feet long.  I found that it required  

>> about 500' for me to make the 180 and get back to the end of the  

>> runway.  I tried it at 400' but the ending was not pretty (nothing  

>> bent).  The interesting thing is that at 600' I could not make the  

>> runway because I had traveled further away from the runway than  

>> the extra 100' in altitude allowed me to make up.  My engine has a  

>> clutch, so the prop windmills at engine idle just like it would  

>> windmill if the engine failed.

>>

>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn6T8ynRDLk

>>

>> FWIW

>> Jason

>> MKIII Yamaha powered

>> Portland, OR

> Wish I had that many open fields to choose from for emergency  

> landing spots.

> Please be careful.  Do you know your stall speed on a steep turn?



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295828#295828

Last edited by Eugene Zimmerman on Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:17 am Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

Every thing and every plane is different, and I intend to  pursue my findings further, but the turns that I did last spring in testing this  theory proved to me that I lost much more altitude in a steep turn than what I  did in a slow flat turn. Of course I have VG's and that made my findings  different from most of you. I tried it both ways and I found that clam, slow and  easy worked the best for me.   Your experience may be  different!

 Larry

  

  

  

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,  which includes my email address.

 [quote]   ---

_________________
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Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video

Hello All,



Here is where this very topic was discussed in detail on this list before. FWIW.



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=38477&highlight=descending+turn+stall



Jason

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:03 pm Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

At 11:46 AM 4/27/10 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Jack H/Gang:



Do VGs increase lift?  The reason I ask is I do not know.



I thought VGs decreased stall speed.



Also, could you explain "twitchyness" during steep turns with the Firefly?



Thanks,




	


John,



You are correct in that VG's reduce stall speed.   Therefore it stands to 

reason that if one flys at the previous stall speed or faster, the VG's will 

generate more lift than the wing did before the addition of VG's.  Also when 

in level flight the AOA will be less and the drag associated with that IAS 

will be less too.



When I installed the VG's, the 447 was mounted on the FireFly and after I 

had changed from 15 inch chord ailerons to 9 inch chord ailerons.  The 

description of what happened when I installed them can be found at:



http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly18.html



What I mean by twitchy is the feeling one gets through the lower cheeks that 

things are not going well or as one expects.  I had the feeling that if I 

pushed the FireFly on a downwind to base bank that it felt like it wanted keep 

right on going over onto its back.  As a result I never made very steep left 

banks.  I had no problem with banks to the right. After I mounted the VG's 

this sensation disappeared, and flying enjoyment increased.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

I usually read the responses to a post before I offer my 2 cents.  BUT, unless you a re a really low time Kolb pilot

you should eventually pick up on how your wing is feeling.  Smooth, low pull turns like we saw in that excellent video

would not cause a problem.  -that is as long as the driver has a good feel for load inducement and keeps his buttocks

free from excessive compression.  Lowering the nose will do just fine.

Once again, you cannot stall an airplane at zero Gs.

BB

On 27, Apr 2010, at 1:15 PM, Jason Omelchuck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hello Boyd,

 Again, a descending (power off) turn at constant air speed is a 1G maneuver.

 Jason

 [quote="by0ung(at)brigham.net"]his prop is going to spin and slow him down a lot. All he had to do was to apply throttle and he is running again, so the danger that he put himself into was no worse than any power off landing, whether it be straight in or not.  

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .  

> 

> 

 Have you ever heard of an accelerated stall.     It usually happens when yanking and banking.     Maybe I am out of place because I have not seen the video. But I have not seen these thoughts expressed in this thread.   If the turns are less than 30 deg and the g load less than 1.5,,     you may be okâ€¦   if the turn is  60 or more deg bank and g load 2 or above.   You best know what the stall looks and feels like, and at what speed,  in that configuration.   In these conditions the stall can occur well above the straight and level  stall speed. And a stall at a high bank angle at 500 ft and under can cause a sudden  end to a very good day.  Even if your engine is running.  

 Boyd Young  

> [b]

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295874#295874

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

At 01:25 PM 4/27/2010, Jason Omelchuck wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  If you are not descending  and under power you are correct.  If you are power off and loosing airspeed, you are correct.  If you are power off and descending at a constant airspeed, it is a 1G maneuver. 	


 People argued with me in the previous thread you referenced, but I stand by what I said:  It is impossible to maintain a turn at constant airspeed without exceeding 1G, unless your rate of descent constantly increases at an acceleration rate corresponding to the loss of lift due to the bank.



 Take a 45 degree bank, for example.  In a normal, coordinated, level turn, you pull 1.41G.  If you put your aircraft into a 45 degree bank and hold 1G, the vertical component of lift will be only 0.707g; thus you'll have a downward acceleration of 0.3g, or 9.4 ft/s/s, or 566 fpm/s.  This means that after one second, your rate of descent will have increased by 566 fpm.  After four seconds, you're descending at 2264 fpm, which is a pretty steep dive, and you WILL pull more than one g pulling out of it.



 -Dana.  

 --

  Wernher von Braun settled for a V-2 instead of a V-8.    [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

The most ignored indicator that indicates stall independent of the ASI and 

angle of bank is the AOA meter.  Few have them mounted in their 

aircraft.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video

Jason,



That was a great video you did on returning to the runway in the event of an engine failure.  The lesson to learn here is not to take a piece of advice like " Never try to return to the runway if your engine quits " and apply it to every situation.  Many times Kolb pilots are flying from 5000 foot general aviation runways that you would be close to 1000 feet at the end.  If you had houses, or trees in front, 1000 feet of altitude, and 5000 feet of general aviation runway just behind you when the engine quit, only a fool would take the common advice and land into a house or a tree in this situation.  As the runway gets shorter, it becomes more dangerous to turn back, and one should look for the best place ahead or even 90 degrees left or right.  On a super short runway, the only option will be straight ahead.  A good pilot should know about what runway length and altitude will allow a return to the runway if the engine quits in his airplane.  



Its needless to say brand new Kolb pilots should not practice this until they know their airplanes well and can do a banked power off turn without stalling.  Again, its just a matter of being smart.  For most of us, practice like this will make us safer in case of an engine failure.   There are always a few new or poorly skilled pilots that are safer never testing the limits of their planes.  Trying to apply one rule to everyone, or one rule for every situation just shows a poor understanding of aviation.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:04 am Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

a flat skidding turn leading to the inside  wing stalling,>>

  

 Hi Dana,

 reminds me of an incident I saw just around the end  of the war.

  

 An Albemarle, which was a twin engined light/medium  bomber reduced to glider tugging was struggling into the sky from  my  local field pulling a Waco glider.  The glider got out of position and  pulled the tail of the Albemarle to  starboard. The Albemarles port wing  stalled and she dropped into a straight down nosedive with both engines flat  out. Unfortunately there was not enough height and she hit the ground about 10  degrees from vertical.  The pilot had obviously realised what was happening  and dumped the tow line as his plane dropped out of control thus certainly  saving the glider pilot from filling his pants or as a worst case causing the  glider to crash with its full complement of squaddies aboard.

 Sports gliders with their long wing span are prone  to this on final turn when they are close to the ground and skid into a flat  turn instead of banking properly.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat   

   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:40 am Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

The wind would have to be blowing on the order of 10 to 15 knots (an 

estimate) down the runway to be in danger of running out of runway on the 

landing roll.>>



Hi Jason,



working the accurate  math for that is beyond me but a 10knot windspeed and 

say 35knot airspeed at take off  is going to produce a ground speed on 

takeoff of 25knots. Landing downwind is going to require at least 45 knots 

ground speed and to keep proper control, a bit more. That will certainly 

take a lot more runway than you expect.



I will tell you how I know.  I flew to a fly in last weekend. Viz was not 

great and I was non radio. The wind was light and I couldn`t see the 

windsock.  I saw another a/c in the circuit and decided to follow him around 

the circuit. As I turned I lost him in the haze and the next time I saw him 

he was on the ground having (I assumed), just landed. I   tracked round  to 

follow and landed in the same direction. I realised that something was not 

quite right when the hedge wizzed under me a bit faster than I expected. 

Then the plane plonked herself down a bit more solidly than usual and I 

found myself charging down the grass and applying brakes hard. I taxied to 

the clubhouse where I was given a (richly deserved) b*******ing from the 

CFI.

What I had seen was not the other plane landing, but BACKTRACKING after he 

had landed. A stupid error whch to salve my pride I shall put down as being 

due to the first away flight of the season and not being really switched on 

yet.

Take it from me. Down wind landings take MUCH more runway than you expect.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:51 am Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

If you bank steeper you descend faster and you are still at 1G.>>



Hi Jason,

If that were the case then any bank angle would not increase the `G`. 

Ascending, descending, power on or off. None of these is germane to the 

case.



Cheers



Pat

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:48 am Post subject: 180 turn back to the runway video

On Apr 28, 2010, at 6:40 AM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Take it from me. Down wind landings take MUCH more runway than you  

 expect.


	


Ok,

You perhaps.  What  do you expect?

Unrealistic expectations inevitably  make pilots  unsafe.



Gene,

Watkinsdw

Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 138
Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:39 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video

Hi, Gang,

Just for fun, and since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned, when safely practicing at altitude, perform a 270 degree turn to establish your altitude loss.

Unless we take off sideways across a football field, it takes a 45 to return to the runway, and another 45 to line up for landing. All that is after the initial 180.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:54 am Post subject: Re: 180 turn back to the runway video

Here is a very good video about the "Impossible Turn" as performed by two guys in a C172.

http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-07.html



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

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