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Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
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chris Sinfield

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:00 am Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

well I am glad I did not spend my $4000 going to Oshkosh, if all we can talk about is the 1200vs 1320 limits please..

tell me something else was worth the trip??? 

What happened at the BBQ? 

did Dynon have any specials?

is there going to be a 650C model???



Chris..

slook(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

As was going to remain silent on any more of this but I have to 

comment on this statement.



Nothing has been proved to show that CH has made any mistake. You 

pointed me to a link in the FAA report to read so I went back to it again.



"FAA analysis estimated that the wing design loads were 20 to 25 

percent too low"



Maybe I'm reading this too literally, but to me, engineering is a 

pretty exact thing. I take this much of this type of stuff and then 

apply this much force to it and it breaks or it doesn't.



When critiquing someone else's work, with livelihoods and reputations 

in the balance, it don't expect to see the word "estimate" anywhere.



I'm sure Chris & company were surprised at the FAA finding. To my 

knowledge, he still doesn't agree with them.



Steve



At 06:30 PM 7/29/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Engineers make mistakes, great engineers own up to their mistakes.


	


Steve Look

Monticello, IL

www.ilrt66.com

"Dogs have owners, Cats have staff"

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

I think the legal profession has seen to it that owning up to mistakes 

is no longer a viable option for an engineer,

whether great or not.  Nor for any other professional for that matter.   

If you really believe that CH thinks there is/was a problem with XL, 

then look no farther than your own parents' profession as the reason for 

his denial.  He may or may not have made a mistake, but he certainly 

isn't that stupid.  Even if he were willing to except personal 

destruction, he would also be sacrificing the jobs of his sons, everyone 

who works for a related company, and would no longer be able to support 

his current customers.  Perhaps you think all that damage would be 

justified.  I think that sort of damage is one reason this country is 

falling to pieces.



You clearly have the ability to be a great engineer.   The greater the 

engineer, the greater consequences of a mistake.  I guess any you make 

are likely to be duesies.   Would you take all your family and friends 

down with you?



Ron

On 07/29/2010 07:30 PM, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Engineers make mistakes, great engineers own up to their mistakes.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306736#306736

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:21 am Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

There is a fix, whether needed or not.  It's not about saving lives, 

it's about satisfying your curiosity and ego.

As far as saving lives:  As an exercise, dress in some crappy cloths and 

try to get medical care with no money and no insurance.  Now pretend you 

are pregnant.  There are more ways to die than in plane crashes and 

poverty has killed untold numbers through history.  Putting people out 

of work has real and deadly consequences.  And make no mistake.  If CH 

cried mea culpa there where be nothing left any of the Zenith companies 

long before the law suites ended.



I'm not making excuses for anyone here.  If there is a safety problem 

with a plane it should be fixed.  But lawyers may well hinder the 

process more than help.  I'm also not knocking lawyers in general, but 

there are enough confluences of bad lawyers, but judges, bad juries and 

bad laws to do great damage.



Grow up.  Get an education.  Do the great things of which you seem to be 

capable.  Lose the ego and since of entitlement.



Ron



On 07/30/2010 01:58 PM, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 to save even one life, yes....



 not fairing the struts was a mistake...





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306829#306829

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Ron,

I seem to be missing some posts.  What is this business about "fairing 

struts"?

Karl

--------------------------------------------------

From: "Ron Steele" <rsteele(at)rjsit.com>

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 3:18 PM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

 	  Quote: 	

 There is a fix, whether needed or not.  It's not about saving lives, it's 

 about satisfying your curiosity and ego.

 As far as saving lives:  As an exercise, dress in some crappy cloths and 

 try to get medical care with no money and no insurance.  Now pretend you 

 are pregnant.  There are more ways to die than in plane crashes and 

 poverty has killed untold numbers through history.  Putting people out of 

 work has real and deadly consequences.  And make no mistake.  If CH cried 

 mea culpa there where be nothing left any of the Zenith companies long 

 before the law suites ended.

 I'm not making excuses for anyone here.  If there is a safety problem with 

 a plane it should be fixed.  But lawyers may well hinder the process more 

 than help.  I'm also not knocking lawyers in general, but there are enough 

 confluences of bad lawyers, but judges, bad juries and bad laws to do 

 great damage.

 Grow up.  Get an education.  Do the great things of which you seem to be 

 capable.  Lose the ego and since of entitlement.

 Ron

 On 07/30/2010 01:58 PM, Sabrina wrote:

> 

>

> to save even one life, yes....

>

> not fairing the struts was a mistake...

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306829#306829

>

>

>

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

The fairer the struts, the better!



What little I saw of the design scared the bejesus out of me, but I'm no 

AE and she apparently had them vetted by one, so that's it as far as I'm 

concerned.  Now it would be really interesting to get CH's unvarnished 

opinion on those changes.  He certainly didn't hold back in his opinion 

on the LAA stuff.



Ron



On 07/30/2010 04:17 PM, Karl Polifka wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jfowler120(at)verizon.net>



 Ron,



 I seem to be missing some posts.  What is this business about "fairing 

 struts"?



 Karl



 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "Ron Steele" <rsteele(at)rjsit.com>

 Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 3:18 PM

 To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.



> 

>

> There is a fix, whether needed or not.  It's not about saving lives, 

> it's about satisfying your curiosity and ego.

> As far as saving lives:  As an exercise, dress in some crappy cloths 

> and try to get medical care with no money and no insurance.  Now 

> pretend you are pregnant.  There are more ways to die than in plane 

> crashes and poverty has killed untold numbers through history.  

> Putting people out of work has real and deadly consequences.  And 

> make no mistake.  If CH cried mea culpa there where be nothing left 

> any of the Zenith companies long before the law suites ended.

>

> I'm not making excuses for anyone here.  If there is a safety problem 

> with a plane it should be fixed.  But lawyers may well hinder the 

> process more than help.  I'm also not knocking lawyers in general, 

> but there are enough confluences of bad lawyers, but judges, bad 

> juries and bad laws to do great damage.

>

> Grow up.  Get an education.  Do the great things of which you seem to 

> be capable.  Lose the ego and since of entitlement.

>

> Ron

>

> On 07/30/2010 01:58 PM, Sabrina wrote:

>> 

>>

>> to save even one life, yes....

>>

>> not fairing the struts was a mistake...

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306829#306829

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Hi Ron,



As a retired engineer I must side with Sabrina on this point.



It really is true that even the best engineers make mistakes.  They are

humans and that is the nature of being human.  The lawyers don't circle

simply because a human is human.  They get active when they feel someone has

taken the wrong path in this kind of situation like CH is alleged to have

taken - try to talk your way out of the problem rather than acknowledging

the facts and working to fix a known problem.  



I don't think that is what Sabrina has actually said.  I got the message

from her posts that she thinks he doesn't feel there was a mistake and

honestly says that.  He is simply wrong about that according to the

published FAA documents.  The only legitimate conclusion we can reach from

all that is that CH and the FAA disagree.  



None of these things would generate a successful lawsuit in my opinion.  The

only real liability here would be the people who were actually injured could

try to claim it was CH's negligence that caused their loss.   That would be

difficult to collect on even if it was completely true.  We are talking

about experimental airplanes here and we all signed waivers of liability in

order to buy the plans.



I think it would be better if CH and all his sons made it very clear that

there really was a problem and the design change that they endorsed and

released to all owners fixes the problem.  That would clear it all up for

all the owners and they would understand that their best choice was to

actually install the upgrade.



Paul

Currently installing the upgrade with the belief it will make my plane safe.



--

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Paul,



You live in some parallel universe.



It is frequently not the expectation that a lawsuit be successful, it is 

merely the intent to destroy the defendant in the process.  The plaintiff in 

such a process cannot conceive of any responsibility on their part.  It is 

always someone else's fault.  This has become a huge national problem, 

merely manifested in this very small situation.



Most of us think there is little if anything wrong with the 601 design. 

Whatever (questionable) ills there were have certainly been fixed by this 

modification .  Yet, somehow you and a few others  refuse pilot and 

maintenance error causes and blame the designer for problems affecting 

1/100% of the 601 population.   Cut the stats down to normal pilot error 

ratios and you have a very tiny percentage that might, conceivably be a 

design shortcoming -- which is very unlikely.  Of course, it is certainly 

possible that CH never computed the idiot factor into his design process. 

Yes, that may be a flaw.  The rest of us well understand the shortcomings of 

engineers in facing the real world.  You would like to think that you do, 

but you don't.



It would appear that your aim is to destroy Zenith Aircraft.  Why not just 

come out and say do.  The rest of us are tired of the pontificating -- from 

retired engineers and teenagers. Let's move on to the process of building 

and maintaining this airplane.  If you cannot do that, shut up.



Karl





--------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm(at)att.net>

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 8:53 PM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.



[quote] 



 Hi Ron,



 As a retired engineer I must side with Sabrina on this point.



 It really is true that even the best engineers make mistakes.  They are

 humans and that is the nature of being human.  The lawyers don't circle

 simply because a human is human.  They get active when they feel someone 

 has

 taken the wrong path in this kind of situation like CH is alleged to have

 taken - try to talk your way out of the problem rather than acknowledging

 the facts and working to fix a known problem.



 I don't think that is what Sabrina has actually said.  I got the message

 from her posts that she thinks he doesn't feel there was a mistake and

 honestly says that.  He is simply wrong about that according to the

 published FAA documents.  The only legitimate conclusion we can reach from

 all that is that CH and the FAA disagree.



 None of these things would generate a successful lawsuit in my opinion. 

 The

 only real liability here would be the people who were actually injured 

 could

 try to claim it was CH's negligence that caused their loss.   That would 

 be

 difficult to collect on even if it was completely true.  We are talking

 about experimental airplanes here and we all signed waivers of liability 

 in

 order to buy the plans.



 I think it would be better if CH and all his sons made it very clear that

 there really was a problem and the design change that they endorsed and

 released to all owners fixes the problem.  That would clear it all up for

 all the owners and they would understand that their best choice was to

 actually install the upgrade.



 Paul

 Currently installing the upgrade with the belief it will make my plane 

 safe.



 --

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

oops,  make that 1%.



Karl

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Hi Karl,



I agree with much of what you wrote, but a couple of your clearly stupid and

unjustified statements force me to respond.



Indeed I don't care one hoot about the future of Zenith.  It's fine with me

if they continue to do business.  I just don't think we are ever going to

get anything useful on the XL question from them in the future.  



I find your personal criticism offensive.  You pretend to read my mind and

then complain about the thoughts you had rather than ones I actually had and

expressed.  That is just plain childish bullshit on your part.



For me it important to clear up the distinction between a fix that might or

might not address the actual problem that clearly existed, in my opinion,

that led to the accidents.  Your notion that it was all pilot error and

loose cables is clearly not true.  If it were you must account for the

reality that only Zodiac XLs had structure failures in a field where there

are many similar planes with similar pilots and cables that didn't have any

similar accidents.



Before I correctly understood the FAA ruling I didn't believe there was a

smoking gun to explain the accidents.  After my recent conversations and

rereading the FAA publication I believe there was indeed a real problem that

was identified by engineering review at the FAA.  That allows me to believe

the actual problem was fixed rather than the design was beefed up in the

hope the unknown problem would go away.



I know we all had to place a great deal of faith in CH and Zenith/Zenair

when we decided to build our planes.  I think the vicious namecalling that

is taking place on this list is really a measure of how each of us reacts

when faced with the idea our faith was wrongly placed.  Some of us change

our opinions faced with new facts.  Others just attack the messenger so they

can continue to believe their previous ideas.  Once again this is all normal

human nature.



I hope we all install the upgrade and enjoy our wonderful planes.  If we

have different reasons for doing that it is not a problem.  If some refuse

to believe the update is necessary in the face of overwhelming proof and

then kill themselves in unmodified planes that will cause a measure of

damage to us all.



Respectfully,



Paul



--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:59 am Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

I know mine can, I have personally flown it at full a gross weight of 1320 lbs to a four G flight loading. The VNE I was given during my construction was 180 mph. I have flown it to 110% of that in phase 1 testing to verify that VNE. After my phase 1 testing was complete and flying it a total of 325 hours, I am confident that my airplane is safe to fly as designed. And don't forget, the factory demonstrator probably went through more testing than mine and it flew for 1300 hours before the upgrade was done on it with no signs of failure.



On Jul 29, 2010, at 4:37 PM, Sabrina wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 Steve, do you believe the kit, factory XL or plans without the modification can support more than 1200 pounds? Faster than 138?  Utility category?

 


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

I too attended the Oshkosh Zenith Forum - I didn't expect a "mea culpa" from the Heintz clan inasmuch as their legal troubles are far from over.  Personally, I appreciate the fact that they just didn't walk away from the whole mess and leave us holding the bag.  This whole saga with the XL has been a nightmare for them, both personally and professionally.  At this point little can be gained by pointing fingers... CH obviously did not set out to design an airplane with a flaw that would kill people, but not being an engineer, I cannot challenge him on his design.  I also don't have faith in our FAA to always find the correct answer. I have dealt with some FAA engineers that didn't seem to have a clue. In the case of the Zodiac, I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between the Zenith and FAA positions.



 I am not convinced that the crashes were due to a single factor and nothing I've read or heard says otherwise.  I think the modifications will produce an airplane that we can be confident in. I appreciate Paul sharing with us what he heard from the FAA guy... the more good news the better.



A few more things that came out of that forum that may be of interest.



1.) Zenith believes a lot of builders are not properly calibrating their airspeed indicators with the result that when they slow to maneuvering speed in turbulence they may actually be flying at a speed significantly greater.  I don't have to explain to anyone what this means.

2.) They gave their justification for the internal aileron stop - explaining there were suspected instances where passengers had pushed against the stick when getting out of the airplane and stretched the whole control system.  They also reported a case where failure to secure the stick in windy conditions had resulted in damage that reduced the cable tension and actually damaged the rear spar.

3.) Matieu mentioned that Zenith hired an experienced test pilot to take the modified Zodiac up and "take it to the edge."  Apparently there were no problems and the pilot reported favorably on the flying characteristics of the airplane.

4.) Zodiac intends to have a modified Zodiac put through the same series of flutter tests by the german engineers that did the original tests last year.  

5.) Some pilots who have modified and are now flying their aircraft were asked to comment on any differences they noted.  Their only comment is that the airplane seemed more stable and seemed to handle turbulence better.

6.) Matieu commented that the reason there has been no new information coming out from Zenith on the XL is that there is nothing new to report.  He seemed to think this was a good thing - "no news is good news."  I think the next chapter is going to be written by those flying modified aircraft, not the Zenith company.



As for me, I had a great time at Sploshkosh and especially enjoyed the chance to meet other builders face to face.  Paul, I wish I had known you were at the forum.  It would have been nice to meet you finally.



Tim Juhl

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

 	  Sabrina wrote: 	
		  Check out page 3, paragraph 1 of this document:



http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/Zodiac.pdf 	




Sabrina,



I have had the experience of upgrading a Czech XL and must report it's not using the thicker materials that my plans (dated August, 8, 2005) indicate.  The page you cite has the Czech Republic airplane as support for the FAA's conclusion. The problem there is Apples and Oranges are being used to present conclusions representative of the other product.



The European airplanes are using lighter thickness materials and are designed to a different standard GW.



The upgrade of the Czech airplane discovered .040" was used for the 6-B-13-1 Wing Attachment Uprights.  My plans require .063 for the same part and the upgrade makes the forward parts .125" now.  I replace the .040" in the Czech airplane with .063" for the rear parts.



That is just one area, there are more, that this Czech airplane varies from the plans I have.



Just thought you would want to know this.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

The wing attach uprights in the US 601xl's also used .040 for the uprights  in the early versions. I have come across 2 so far and Zenith has supplied me  with the .063 uprights to replace them.

  

 Another Czech 601 that I am doing now in my opinion is better built than  the US 601's. It has most of the upgrades in it already and a few more. The one  I am doing already has the aileron stop installed but is much better that the  light weight one zenith supplied and the floor/seat stiffeners were  installed.

  

 Jeff

  

  In a message dated 8/1/2010 1:04:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ron.lendon(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith601-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon"    <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com>

Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Check out page    3, paragraph 1 of this document:

 

    http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/Zodiac.pdf


	




Sabrina,



I    have had the experience of upgrading a Czech XL and must report it's not using    the thicker materials that my plans (dated August, 8, 2005) indicate.     The page you cite has the Czech Republic airplane as support for the FAA's    conclusion. The problem there is Apples and Oranges are being used to present    conclusions representative of the other product.



The European airplanes    are using lighter thickness materials and are designed to a different standard    GW.



The upgrade of the Czech airplane discovered .040" was used for the    6-B-13-1 Wing Attachment Uprights.  My plans require .063 for the same    part and the upgrade makes the forward parts .125" now.  I replace the    .040" in the Czech airplane with .063" for the rear parts.



That is just    one area, there are more, that this Czech airplane varies from the plans I    have.



Just thought you would want to know this.



--------

Ron    Lendon, Clinton Township, MI

WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th    bearing

Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder    

http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon





Read this topic    online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307017#307017===============================================

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  [quote][b]

alsmith

Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 12

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

I found it interesting that Zenith did not bring a 601 or 650 to Air Venture.



Additionaly AMD did not display any factory built 650's. 



No updates in the assenmbly manuals for the 650 have been published.



It is my belief that the low wing series will soon be dropped as an offering

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

On the other hand, the Piper Sport seems to be going great guns.  This is

obviously a close copy of the XL.  I looked at one at OSH and saw that the

center console is an exact copy.  There are a few notable differences like

the wing tips, but this is a very close cousin to the XL designed and built

by a company that, until recently, manufactured and sold XLs to the European

market.



I believe Piper has already shipped more of these planes than the Cessna

S-LSA (C-162?).  I don't know of any problems with the Sport Cruiser from

CZAW which is (I believe) the same plane as the Piper Sport.  My wild guess

is that the C-162 will fade away (they only have shipped about 6 of these

planes even though there are many hundreds of deposits) and the Piper Sport

will be wildly successful.  The big attraction of the Cessna was the

Continental engine that the FBOs are already comfortable with and the Piper

uses the Rotax that is so popular with the remaining LSA fleet.  That same

engine choice means approximately 100 pounds of extra empty weight in the

Cessna which is a whole lot for an LSA.



So, the general XL design lives on even though it may not have much future

at AMD or Zenith.



Paul



--

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