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Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment
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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:03 pm Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

John- I think it might have been Larry Cottrel that did the video.  It 

does show an amazing amount of tail twisting, and I think it's the boom. 

Or, it might be some kind of illusion.  It is a very impressive piece of 

footage.



                                                  Bill Sullivan

                                                  Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                  FS 447

 Bill S/Gang:



Very familiar with Larry C's FSII.  Flown it, and helped a little bit when 

it came to fine tuning it.



I still believe most tail section movement is caused by loose tail wires.



There is a lot of flex in the tailboom tube, but it won't flex unless 

something else ask it to flex, like a tailsection that is dancing around 

back there.



Next time you fly your Kolb, fly it with loose tail wires, and see how it 

performs.



Then, tighten them down really good, then tighten some more.  Go fly, check 

the tail, and see if it hasn't been tamed a bit.



That is the way it works for me.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pcarillonsr(at)neo.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     John- I think it might have been Larry Cottrel that did the video.  It 

 does show an amazing amount of tail twisting, and I think it's the 

 boom.  Or, it might be some kind of illusion.  It is a very impressive 

 piece of footage.

  

                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                   Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                   FS 447

 

 

  Bill and gang :
	


 

That video of the tail shake was by Chris Ambrose, Ces308

Goto YouTube and type in Ces308 and you will get his videos, There are a 

couple showing the rear view. One is shot thru his plastic enclosure 

which makes it look like the tail is really shaking bad. Another video 

is taken without the enclosure, looks better.



Jack Carillon FSII Akron, oh.

zharvey(at)bentoncountyca
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

John, when you say "tail wires" are you talking about  the stabilizer wires?

 I'm finding I am having issues with needing to keep left  rudder all the time in straight and level flight with my KXP.  Other than a  trim tab, anyone have any ideas on correcting?

 Thanks

 Gene

  

  



   

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

John, when you say "tail wires" are you talking about  the stabilizer wires?

 I'm finding I am having issues with needing to keep left  rudder all the time in straight and level flight with my KXP.  Other than a  trim tab, anyone have any ideas on correcting?

 Thanks

 Gene

  

  

  

 Gene/Gang:

  

 I have found, since I started building and flying Kolbs, a  rudder trim tab works best.

  

 Your mileage may vary.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 hauck's holler, alabama

   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

zharvey(at)bentoncountyca
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

John, any chance you can send me a photo.  I don't  wish to try to reinvent the wheel.  Do you use fixed or  adjustable?

 Gene

  



  



 I have found, since I started building and flying Kolbs, a  rudder trim tab works best.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 hauck's holler, alabama

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[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

Sorry, Gene, forgot to answer your first  question.

  

 I am talking about the tail wire bracing.

  

 Guess I was so excited about being able to climb up on a 60  year old McCormick W-9, fire it off after turning one cylinder, first time it  has cranked in more than three months.  I got the airstrip cut, but the  grass was so thick I had to pull the 6' bush hog in 3d gear most of the time and  2d when it really got thick.  This old McCormick has a lot of guts and  normally cut the airstrip in 4th, along with most of the pastures.

  

 First time I have been on a tractor since I crashed my  MTB.  I could fly if I could get the mkIII out of the hanger, but I need a  medical and a BFR.  Not going to take a chance breaking my airplane until I  am legal once again.

  

 Depending on my old flight surgeon, I can get a medical if he  will give me one before I start walking without the walker or a cane.  Got  somebody lined up to give me a BFR soon as I am ready, after the  medical.

  

 Life is good!

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

 ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

Let me look on my computer.  I am home, hauck's holler,  for a few days.

  

 The rudder trim tab we use on the mkIII's are about twice as  large as you would need on a Firestar.

  

 Using .025" aluminum would make a nice easily adjustable  tab.  

  

 If I can't find a photo, hopefully, someone else on the list  with a Firestar may be able to provide a copy.

  

 john

  

  

  

  

 John, any chance you can send me a photo.  I don't  wish to try to reinvent the wheel.  Do you use fixed or  adjustable?

 Gene

  



  



  

[quote] [b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

On my Mk III what causes the movement is rudder flutter pure and simple. If I take my feet off the rudder peddles the tail starts to shake with increasing amplitude. It's why after 150 + hours Zulu Delta is still in phase 1 testing and my flying is limited to my test area given me by my FSDO. The cure, for me is to remove all the dead weight from the improperly applied Aerothane by re-covering the empenage and balancing the surfaces. Until then I cannot in good conscience sign off the logbook that the aircraft has no dangerous tendencies. My experiment, my solution.

 There's a part of me that would love to put a Vee tail on the airplane with full flying ruddervators, but that's another experiment for another day.

Rick Girard



 On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:39 PM, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)> wrote:

[quote]   John- I think it might have been Larry Cottrel that did the video.  It does show an amazing amount of tail twisting, and I think it's the boom.  Or, it might be some kind of illusion.  It is a very impressive piece of footage.

   

                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                   Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                   FS 447

  	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

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[b]

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

Chris, Use a plumb line, and a water level. You can level your plane within a gnat's posterior that way.Make a couple of stands with 1" X 2" wood. For a Kolb I'd make the vertical post at least 6' tall

 But 50' of 1/4" vinyl tubing, hang from stands, fill with water mixed with red food coloring. The water in the two tubes will always be at the same level relative to each other. Measure from that.

 If you need more than two references you can use plastic fuel line tees, or drip irrigation tees to add as many lines and stands as you think you need. As long as they are all connected all the levels in the vertical tubes will be the same.

 Hang a plumb line from the ceiling of your hangar, make a stand like those for water level. Mearure from the plumb line to the rudder post, when the measurement is the same top and bottom of the post it's dead on vertical.

 



Rick Girard



On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:18 AM, chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com (capedavis(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: chris davis <capedavis(at)yahoo.com (capedavis(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Chris , I think you have  your aircraft well within acceptable limits for the

 speeds at which we fly , the 1.5 inch difference in your cables was most likely

 the most out of whack measurement that you had and you fixed that ! With your

 measurements within 1/8 inch and considering the fact that I never  had my tail

 wires so tight that I couldn't move my horizontal stabilizer 1/8 inch up and

 down I think you should be all right . just my 2 cents. Chris

  Chris Davis

 KXP 503 492 hrs

 Glider Pilot

 Disabled from crash building Firefly

 

 

 

 ---

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:30 am Post subject: Re: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

[quote="rickofudall"]On my Mk III what causes the movement is rudder flutter pure and simple. If I take my feet off the rudder peddles the tail starts to shake with increasing amplitude. It's why after 150 + hours Zulu Delta is still in phase 1 testing and my flying is limited to my test area given me by my FSDO. The cure, for me is to remove all the dead weight from the improperly applied Aerothane by re-covering the empenage and balancing the surfaces. Until then I cannot in good conscience sign off the logbook that the aircraft has no dangerous tendencies. My experiment, my solution.

 

Rick Girard

 [quote][b]



A counterbalance on the rudder works just as well for the rudder as a counterbalance for the aileron works for the aileron. You mention lightening the surfaces and balancing them, that will help. I suspect that due to the prop pulsing against the rudder, that simply lightening the rudder without a counterbalance will not resolve the problem.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:20 am Post subject: Acceptable horizontal stabilizer adjustment

"by re-covering the empenage and balancing the surfaces." Richard, I believe that's what I said. 



Rick

 

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 8:30 AM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

 [quote="rickofudall"]On my Mk III what causes the movement is rudder flutter pure and simple. If I take my feet off the rudder peddles the tail starts to shake with increasing amplitude. It's why after 150 + hours Zulu Delta is still in phase 1 testing and my flying is limited to my test area given me by my FSDO. The cure, for me is to remove all the dead weight from the improperly applied Aerothane by re-covering the empenage and balancing the surfaces. Until then I cannot in good conscience sign off the logbook that the aircraft has no dangerous tendencies. My experiment, my solution.

  

 Rick Girard

  [quote][b]

 

 A counterbalance on the rudder works just as well for the rudder as a counterbalance for the aileron works for the aileron. You mention lightening the surfaces and balancing them, that will help. I suspect that due to the prop pulsing against the rudder, that simply lightening the rudder without a counterbalance will not resolve the problem.

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 

 

 

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