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kolb stall
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russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: kolb stall

Can you access the subject of VG's thru Matt or somehow? (Vortex  

Generators)

There's been a lot of talk about them in the past

Worth reading.



On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:37 PM, gtaylor wrote:



[quote] 

 <gtaylor35918(at)roadrunner.com>



 Not to ask a stupid question, I am familiar with CG, is VG a typo,  

 or something else.

 Thanks, Greg

 ---

gtaylor35918(at)roadrunne
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: kolb stall

I'm not sure who Matt is, I am new to the list, a 250 hr pilot with IFR, but 

I have only about 1.5 in my Kolb Firestar. I bought it already built, went 

through it pretty thoroughly and then test flew it. I have seen all the 

threads about Scott's accident and was worried that his wife could be 

monitoring the list and see all the comments. This is something that she 

doesn't need right now, what she needs is our condolences and our prayers. 

As pilots we all know and I remember my ground school instructor telling us 

that airspeed is your life, so the most important thing in flying is 

managing that air speed.

      I told myself what testing I was going to do on my initial flight, and 

I wound up just flying around the patch several times and doing touch and 

goes. I did no stalls, or any of the testing I was planning on doing. This 

was about a month or two ago maybe longer, since then I have mowed a runway 

off behind my house and tried to fly out of it. I only have about 400 ft of 

good usable runway maybe five, and I learned the hard way how easy it is to 

put the nose in the dirt, I aborted a take off because when I was ready to 

leave the ground at a certain point on the runway the plane wasn't. I went 

past the end of my runway because the breaks weren't strong enough and went 

into some high weeds which along with full breaks caused me to put the nose 

in the dirt. After repairing the nose cone and replacing the tube/hinge for 

the rudder pedals I have decided that I need to go back to the airport, 

maybe even fly from there to a local grass strip to do some more testing 

before I play bush pilot out of my back yard. I don't consider myself to be 

an elite pilot at 250 hrs nor will I at a thousand, It seems that I have 

read before that we are all student pilots because there is always something 

new to learn in aviation, Its when we think we know it all that we get 

ourselves into trouble, that's why I talked to a lot of people with 

experience with Kolb's and ultralights to learn as much as I can and I 

believe it saved my life because I had never heard of aileron flutter 

before, I saw it on a thread on this list and ask a local guy who is in the 

know when comes to building ultralights and LSA, and sure enough on my first 

go around the pattern I experienced it turning on final because I let my 

airspeed get to high, I did what Mike said that he did when he experienced 

it, and it came right out of it.

Thanks, Greg

---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:56 am Post subject: kolb stall

Matt is the list owner.  However, there is no need to contact him to 

make a search; the list website has a good search function and you'll 

find all you ever wanted to know (and then some!) on the subject of 

VG's.



-Dana

--------------------------------------------------

"gtaylor" <gtaylor35918(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:

(09/20/2010 01:57)



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'm not sure who Matt is, I am new to the list

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:43 am Post subject: kolb stall

sure enough on my first

 	  Quote: 	
		   go around the pattern I experienced it turning on final because I let my 

 airspeed get to high, I did what Mike said that he did when he experienced 

 it, and it came right out of it.

 Thanks, Greg


	




Greg/Gang:



Did you install aileron counterbalance weights to prevent aileron flutter 

after you discovered it would flutter?



If you get into flutter once without aileron counterbalance weights, you 

will probably get into it again without them.



john h

mkIII

Rock House, OR

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

gtaylor35918(at)roadrunne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:04 pm Post subject: kolb stall

I haven't istalled counter balances as of yet, but after that first time I 

did several more take off and landings and had no trouble. The big thing was 

letting the air speed get to high, after that first trip around the patch I 

watched the airspeed closer and had no further problems.

Thanks, Greg

---

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:03 am Post subject: kolb stall

I put off installing them too, until one day I encountered heavy turbulence which will give you radically variable airspeeds.

40 one second, 80 the next.  I definitely had flutter, enough to loosen a hinge pin pretty good.

Those balancers went on right after.

BB



On 21, Sep 2010, at 1:01 AM, gtaylor wrote:



[quote] 

 

 I haven't istalled counter balances as of yet, but after that first time I did several more take off and landings and had no trouble. The big thing was letting the air speed get to high, after that first trip around the patch I watched the airspeed closer and had no further problems.

 Thanks, Greg

 ---

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:41 am Post subject: kolb stall

Greg/list.

 You should take the flutter seriously.It can destroy structure quickly and take you with it.Fix it now.Just one comment on first flights, in a new airplane or even one that's just new to you.It's like a test drive  in a car.Take some time with it. If it feels stable and controllable stay in it for an hour.Get the feel of it at different speeds,the low end for sure.If your not comfortable stalling,don't,but you have to know what it feels like slow,and you can do that away from the ground, safely.

 G.Aman 

 

 

   

  

    --

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:55 am Post subject: Re: kolb stall

PLEASE install those aileron counter-balance weights NOW, before further flight.  I will consider it a personal favor to me.  Flutter can happen in the blink of an eye and in another blink can tear the ailerons off the airplane.  It takes a trigger to start flutter.  If the trigger occurs at higher airspeed, next time you may not have warning nor time to slow down before the ailerons depart.



AOPA has a great video and story on the subject here:

http://flash.aopa.org/asf/pilotstories/mayday/MaydayatMountMcKinley/

_________________
Jerry King

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: kolb stall

>> If you get into flutter once without aileron counterbalance weights, you

 	  Quote: 	
		  > will probably get into it again without them.

>

> john h

> mkIII

> Rock House, OR


	




Greg T/Gang:



Reread my the note above.  It has been proven true many times.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: kolb stall

I haven't istalled counter balances as of yet, but after that first time I  

did several more take off and landings and had no trouble. The big thing was  

letting the air speed get to high, after that first trip around the patch I  

watched the airspeed closer and had no further problems.

Thanks,  Greg

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 this is all good till you end up going somewhere  and get in some weather / wind conditions that take you by  supprise.....   a few years back i had just come over a set of  mountains,,,, got cought up in some type of rotor,   the asi jumped  from 40 to 90 mph back and forth  in about 1/4 to 1/2 second  intervals,    that would not be a good time to be wishing you had  counter balances.

  

 boyd young mkIII

   [quote][b]

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: kolb stall

 	  Quote: 	
		   That "nasty" Kolb stall is due to wing loading. My Firestar has a gentle stall with 148 sq feet of wing. Take that same wing and double the wing loading like the Kolbra, and it can be a killer if you're not careful. When I was transitioning to the Kolbra, I would ask Mark why it wanted to drop as we were landing. I told him that my Firestar didn't do that. He couldn't give me an answer because that was the only Kolb he has flown. To keep from dropping the wing, I stay well away from stall. It scares me to slow it up on landing, and for good reason. On the other hand, if I do a power on stall at altitude, it refuses to drop because of the VG's.



Ralph 	




I made a discovery since this last post. I have always landed the Kolbra solo without using the flaperons because this was the way Mark recommended it and I've always landed it hot, so it wouldn't drop. It's been awhile since I had the chance to fly solo, so this past Wednesday I decided to put the flaperons down on landing. I purposely slowed it up to see if it would drop. Would you believe it landed pretty much like the Firestar where the tailwheel hit first and the mains came down ever so softly? I was surprised and happy to see this. One would think that I would have experimented with this a long time ago, but I'm a person of habit and if I'm trained to do it one way, I keep doing it that way. Now, I also have to say the flaperons on the Kolbra don't go down too far, but enough to change the center of lift on the wing and eliminate the drop while flaring.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:51 am Post subject: Re: kolb stall

re:  I have always landed the Kolbra solo without using the flaperons 



Ralph,



Does your Kolbra have in-flight adjustable elevator trim? Does it exhibit much pitch change when adding flaperons or slowing down from normal cruise speed to final approach speed?



I'm asking out of curiosity. What I've noticed in my SS is that when I slow down from my normal cruise speed all trimmed out for cruise, to final approach speed, the nose up pitch increases so I have to push the stick forward or add nose down elevator trim to compensate. I've discovered that by adding full flaperons at final approach speed, the nose-down pitch response from the flaperons is just right so that changes in elevator trim from normal cruise setting is not required to relive the small amount of stick pressure.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:58 am Post subject: Re: kolb stall

Thom Riddle



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ralph,



Does your Kolbra have in-flight adjustable elevator trim? Does it exhibit much pitch change when adding flaperons or slowing down from normal cruise speed to final approach speed?



I'm asking out of curiosity. What I've noticed in my SS is that when I slow down from my normal cruise speed all trimmed out for cruise, to final approach speed, the nose up pitch increases so I have to push the stick forward or add nose down elevator trim to compensate. I've discovered that by adding full flaperons at final approach speed, the nose-down pitch response from the flaperons is just right so that changes in elevator trim from normal cruise setting is not required to relive the small amount of stick pressure. 	




Thom,



My Kolbra has an inflight adjustable elevator trim. It consists of a motorized bungee cord on the stick that tightens when the motor is energized with a toggle switch. It's crude and simple, but works. I only use it for solo and passenger flight. I engage the toggle one way for solo and the other way if I carry a passenger. This takes care of the fine elevator adjustment. The course adjustment is a ground adjustable trim on the elevator that Mark put in. When I fly solo, I toggle the switch for nose down and will have to hold a little forward pressure on the stick, but on landing it seems to be perfect. When carrying a passenger, I toggle the switch for nose up and don't seem to have any other pitch adjustments in flight or on landing.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

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