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teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
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 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:30 am Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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Jim,
Just what is it that you don't like about the Power Flow? Can you be specific?
Gary
From: Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 12:06:45 PM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
That's fine. I'm just a potential customer giving you feedback. Please feel free to ignore it if you don't like it.
On 10/4/2010 2:36 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: | Quote: | For the record, the standard exhaust is one of the worst designs anyone ever came up with.
From: Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com> (jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 10:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
For the record, I would buy the cowl if it were available with the standard exhaust, but I wouldn't even consider installing a Power Flow exhaust system to get it.
On 10/4/2010 12:29 AM, Gary Vogt wrote: | Quote: | Hal,
Nothing is impossible. Figure hiring a DER and involving the FAA for about 2 or 3 years. At bare minimum, you'll need about 4 or 5 climb cooling tests, 3 (if everything works right the first time) carb heat rise tests, and 3 climb performance tests. I would estimate somewhere in the $15,000 range.
Gary.
And, thanks again for all the rides at Dayton.
From: halb221 <halb221(at)centurylink.net> (halb221(at)centurylink.net)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 4:08:05 PM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
DIV { MARGIN:0px;} Gary, Hello from Alabama
I am very interested in your your new deal, I do have one question, how hard would it be to get approval to use your cowl with the standard aa5b exhaust system?
Hal B (Beauchesne) (Your part time ride at Dayton) cell: 334-301-9641
| Quote: | ----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Vogt (teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
Scott,
I'll let you know when I have 10 or more orders. As for the payment schedule, I'll need $3250 deposit and the rest payable upon completion of the cowling. It's a killer deal. I want to keep Composite Dave from getting a real job and not being available to work on my other projects.
Gary
From: Scott Trejo <md11strejo(at)YAHOO.COM (md11strejo(at)YAHOO.COM)>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 5:18:41 AM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price,
Gary, Whats the time frame on which you need full payment. I would really like in on this deal.
Scott Trejo
PS. Was it 20 degrees cooler with the fairing? Any speed gain or loss?
On Oct 2, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
| Quote: | If you're on facebook, you've seen the latest mod on the cowling. It worked and it didn't. I'll post pics tomorrow.
I've worked out a deal with Composite Dave so we can get some of these out on the market. If we can get orders for 10 to 15 cowlings, I'll sell them for $6250. You install and paint. That includes $500 worth of new baffles. You pay the shipping. So, for roughly twice the price of a nose bowl, you get a whole new cowling. Let me know.
Projects that are currently in process.
1. PMA for the instrument panel overlays.
2. PMA for the fiberglass eyebrow.
3. Wheel pants.
4. Fiberglass horizontal root fairings. Just fine tuning the tooling. It's ready to go.
5. A cup holder to replace the ash tray. Just fine tuning the tooling.
6. An STC to replace the nose gear boot with a fairing that stays on the cowling (or comes off separately.) If I hadn't tried the cowling with and without the fairing, I'd have never guessed it was worth 20 degrees in CHT cooling.
7. A real AA5x Tail Dragger. By real, I mean actually moving the location of the main gear and not just using splayed gear legs to get the right geometry.
8. 10:1 IO360B1E with a constant speed prop.
9. Fiberglass elevator and rudder tips.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List%22%3Ehttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref=%22http://forums.matronics.com%22%3Ehttp://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution%22%3Ehttp://www.matronics.com/c
|
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Date: 10/03/10
|
--
Jim Starkey
Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
978 526-1376
|
--
Jim Starkey
Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
978 526-1376
|
[quote][b]
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jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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I'm interested in a new cowl because mine is 30 years old, beat up, and showing fatigue cracks here and there. I'm not interested in a Power Flow exhaust because the performance difference is insignificant for how I use my airplane, and, cost aside, not worth the maintenance hassle. Before you say, "what maintenance hassle", what I have heard over and over on the other list is that the Power Flow exhaust has a lifetime of about 800 hours before it cracks. This is usually followed up by an accusation that the unhappy customer didn't install it correctly, so it's his fault and what did he expect. I don't want an exhaust that regularly fails and I don't want to be blamed when it does.
My current exhaust system has been recently rebuilt, and if the survives for another 25 years, I'll be too old to care on way or the other. But my desire to trade a reliable system for an expensive unreliable one for a performance delta that I don't care about leaves me cold.
A new cowl would solve a problem I have. A Power Flow exhaust would introduce a problem I don't have. Enough said.
On 10/4/2010 3:24 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: | Quote: | Jim,
Just what is it that you don't like about the Power Flow? Can you be specific?
Gary
From: Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com> (jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 12:06:45 PM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
That's fine. I'm just a potential customer giving you feedback. Please feel free to ignore it if you don't like it.
On 10/4/2010 2:36 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: | Quote: | For the record, the standard exhaust is one of the worst designs anyone ever came up with.
From: Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com> (jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 10:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
For the record, I would buy the cowl if it were available with the standard exhaust, but I wouldn't even consider installing a Power Flow exhaust system to get it.
On 10/4/2010 12:29 AM, Gary Vogt wrote: | Quote: | Hal,
Nothing is impossible. Figure hiring a DER and involving the FAA for about 2 or 3 years. At bare minimum, you'll need about 4 or 5 climb cooling tests, 3 (if everything works right the first time) carb heat rise tests, and 3 climb performance tests. I would estimate somewhere in the $15,000 range.
Gary.
And, thanks again for all the rides at Dayton.
From: halb221 <halb221(at)centurylink.net> (halb221(at)centurylink.net)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 4:08:05 PM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
DIV { MARGIN:0px;} Gary, Hello from Alabama
I am very interested in your your new deal, I do have one question, how hard would it be to get approval to use your cowl with the standard aa5b exhaust system?
Hal B (Beauchesne) (Your part time ride at Dayton) cell: 334-301-9641
| Quote: | ----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Vogt (teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
Scott,
I'll let you know when I have 10 or more orders. As for the payment schedule, I'll need $3250 deposit and the rest payable upon completion of the cowling. It's a killer deal. I want to keep Composite Dave from getting a real job and not being available to work on my other projects.
Gary
From: Scott Trejo <md11strejo(at)YAHOO.COM (md11strejo(at)YAHOO.COM)>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 5:18:41 AM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price,
Gary, Whats the time frame on which you need full payment. I would really like in on this deal.
Scott Trejo
PS. Was it 20 degrees cooler with the fairing? Any speed gain or loss?
On Oct 2, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
| Quote: | If you're on facebook, you've seen the latest mod on the cowling. It worked and it didn't. I'll post pics tomorrow.
I've worked out a deal with Composite Dave so we can get some of these out on the market. If we can get orders for 10 to 15 cowlings, I'll sell them for $6250. You install and paint. That includes $500 worth of new baffles. You pay the shipping. So, for roughly twice the price of a nose bowl, you get a whole new cowling. Let me know.
Projects that are currently in process.
1. PMA for the instrument panel overlays.
2. PMA for the fiberglass eyebrow.
3. Wheel pants.
4. Fiberglass horizontal root fairings. Just fine tuning the tooling. It's ready to go.
5. A cup holder to replace the ash tray. Just fine tuning the tooling.
6. An STC to replace the nose gear boot with a fairing that stays on the cowling (or comes off separately.) If I hadn't tried the cowling with and without the fairing, I'd have never guessed it was worth 20 degrees in CHT cooling.
7. A real AA5x Tail Dragger. By real, I mean actually moving the location of the main gear and not just using splayed gear legs to get the right geometry.
8. 10:1 IO360B1E with a constant speed prop.
9. Fiberglass elevator and rudder tips.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List%22%3Ehttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref=%22http://forums.matronics.com%22%3Ehttp://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution%22%3Ehttp://www.matronics.com/c
|
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Date: 10/03/10
|
--
Jim Starkey
Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
978 526-1376
|
--
Jim Starkey
Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
978 526-1376
|
0
|
1 [quote][b]
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aa5_driver(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com> wrote:
[quote] I'm interested in a new cowl because mine is 30 years old, beat up,
and showing fatigue cracks here and there. I'm not interested in a
Power Flow exhaust because the performance difference is insignificant
for how I use my airplane, and, cost aside, not worth the maintenance
hassle. Before you say, "what maintenance hassle", what I have heard
over and over on the other list is that the Power Flow exhaust has a
lifetime of about 800 hours before it cracks. This is usually followed
up by an accusation that the unhappy customer didn't install it
correctly, so it's his fault and what did he expect. I don't want an
exhaust that regularly fails and I don't want to be blamed when it does.
My current exhaust system has been recently rebuilt, and if the survives
for another 25 years, I'll be too old to care on way or the other. But
my desire to trade a reliable system for an expensive unreliable one for
a performance delta that I don't care about leaves me cold.
A new cowl would solve a problem I have. A Power Flow exhaust would
introduce a problem I don't have. Enough said.
On 10/4/2010 3:24 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Just what is it that you don't like about the Power Flow? Can you be
> specific?
>
> Gary
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Mon, October 4, 2010 12:06:45 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going
> price. Deposit
>
> That's fine. I'm just a potential customer giving you feedback.
> Please feel free to ignore it if you don't like it.
> On 10/4/2010 2:36 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>> For the record, the standard exhaust is one of the worst designs
>> anyone ever came up with.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com>
>> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Mon, October 4, 2010 10:14:01 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going
>> price. Deposit
>>
>> For the record, I would buy the cowl if it were available with the
>> standard exhaust, but I wouldn't even consider installing a Power
>> Flow exhaust system to get it.
>>
>>
>> On 10/4/2010 12:29 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>>> Hal,
>>>
>>> Nothing is impossible. Figure hiring a DER and involving the FAA
>>> for about 2 or 3 years. At bare minimum, you'll need about 4 or 5
>>> climb cooling tests, 3 (if everything works right the first time)
>>> carb heat rise tests, and 3 climb performance tests. I would
>>> estimate somewhere in the $15,000 range.
>>>
>>> Gary.
>>> And, thanks again for all the rides at Dayton.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* halb221 <halb221(at)centurylink.net>
>>> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Sent:* Sun, October 3, 2010 4:08:05 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going
>>> price. Deposit
>>>
>>> Gary, Hello from Alabama
>>> I am very interested in your your new deal, I do have one question,
>>> how hard would it be to get approval to use your cowl with the
>>> standard aa5b exhaust system?
>>> Hal B (Beauchesne) (Your part time ride at Dayton) cell:
>>> 334-301-9641
>>>
>>> ---
| | - The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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aa5_driver(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:26 pm Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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Jim,
How many hours did you fly your plane in the last 25 years? I don't know of anyone who has had a complete failure of a pf. It is possible that there have been some failures of a part or two, but that is not a complete failure of the system. I would bet that your exhaust is not original or has been serviced/repaired at some time in the past, wether it was logged or not. Either it was repaired or it has been unairworthy for many years. It was made by man, it will fail at some point. PF is no different, except you can replace individual parts instead of the entire exhaust. Try one you might like it.
APB
Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com> wrote:
[quote] I'm interested in a new cowl because mine is 30 years old, beat up,
and showing fatigue cracks here and there. I'm not interested in a
Power Flow exhaust because the performance difference is insignificant
for how I use my airplane, and, cost aside, not worth the maintenance
hassle. Before you say, "what maintenance hassle", what I have heard
over and over on the other list is that the Power Flow exhaust has a
lifetime of about 800 hours before it cracks. This is usually followed
up by an accusation that the unhappy customer didn't install it
correctly, so it's his fault and what did he expect. I don't want an
exhaust that regularly fails and I don't want to be blamed when it does.
My current exhaust system has been recently rebuilt, and if the survives
for another 25 years, I'll be too old to care on way or the other. But
my desire to trade a reliable system for an expensive unreliable one for
a performance delta that I don't care about leaves me cold.
A new cowl would solve a problem I have. A Power Flow exhaust would
introduce a problem I don't have. Enough said.
On 10/4/2010 3:24 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Just what is it that you don't like about the Power Flow? Can you be
> specific?
>
> Gary
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Mon, October 4, 2010 12:06:45 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going
> price. Deposit
>
> That's fine. I'm just a potential customer giving you feedback.
> Please feel free to ignore it if you don't like it.
> On 10/4/2010 2:36 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>> For the record, the standard exhaust is one of the worst designs
>> anyone ever came up with.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com>
>> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Mon, October 4, 2010 10:14:01 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going
>> price. Deposit
>>
>> For the record, I would buy the cowl if it were available with the
>> standard exhaust, but I wouldn't even consider installing a Power
>> Flow exhaust system to get it.
>>
>>
>> On 10/4/2010 12:29 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>>> Hal,
>>>
>>> Nothing is impossible. Figure hiring a DER and involving the FAA
>>> for about 2 or 3 years. At bare minimum, you'll need about 4 or 5
>>> climb cooling tests, 3 (if everything works right the first time)
>>> carb heat rise tests, and 3 climb performance tests. I would
>>> estimate somewhere in the $15,000 range.
>>>
>>> Gary.
>>> And, thanks again for all the rides at Dayton.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* halb221 <halb221(at)centurylink.net>
>>> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Sent:* Sun, October 3, 2010 4:08:05 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going
>>> price. Deposit
>>>
>>> Gary, Hello from Alabama
>>> I am very interested in your your new deal, I do have one question,
>>> how hard would it be to get approval to use your cowl with the
>>> standard aa5b exhaust system?
>>> Hal B (Beauchesne) (Your part time ride at Dayton) cell:
>>> 334-301-9641
>>>
>>> ---
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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|
PF is no different, except you can replace individual parts instead of the
entire exhaust.
Individual parts of the OEM exhaust system can be replaced. The muffler
with pipes is one part, each of the risers are separate as are the clamps
and the muffler shroud.
For most people the issue is the cost. The initial cost is around $4000,
whereas typically most people just need a new muffler to get them going
again. That is not to say that many of the original risers are beyond their
lifespan and the clamps need to be replaced on somewhat of a regular basis
as well. Most Tiger mufflers only last about 800 hrs before the internal
flame cone burns out.
Cliff
PF Dealer who would like to sell a lot more of them!
---
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grumpyparts
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Posts: 65
Location: EGHH
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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|
What Jim wants is what the majority of owners need, what Gary is offering is what the minority of owners want.
Gary's desire is to design improvements in both design and performance and the new cowl with PF scores on both these fronts, but is it what most need. ?
There is no doubt in my mind if the cowl had gone with the stock exhaust sales would have been easier to come by. Would Gary have been happy with the results, no as thankfully for the future development of our planes he always strives for the best at the expense of self reward.
Oh BTW, notice my message just contains my reply and doesn't contain every thing that has gone before. Try not to just add your response to an existing thread and hit the send key.
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Last edited by grumpyparts on Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
|
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| Quote: | What Jim wants is what the majority of owners need, what Gary is offering
is what the minority of owners want.
Gary's desire is to design improvements in both design and performance and
the new cowl with PF scores on both these fronts, but is it what most
need. ?
There is no doubt in my mind if the cowl had gone with the stock exhaust
sales would have been easier to come by. Would Gray have been happy with
the results, no as thankfully for the future development of our planes he
always strives for the best at the expense of self reward.
|
It is my OPINION that getting the STC amended to include the stock exhaust
would not be nearly as onerous as Gary mentioned (2-3 years and $15,000).
| Quote: | From a logical point of view why would it be so hard to get approval when
that is the stock system and Gary has shown that the cooling is better with
|
his cowl than with the stock configuration. And the PF would not materially
affect cooling, except to possibly make it worse due to the higher power
output of the engine. The FAA should just rubber stamp the approval, but
logic does not prevail a lot of times with them. Having the cowling
approved for BOTH exhaust systems would more than double the market size I
would think.
Cliff
---
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v1rotate(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:03 pm Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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FWIW, my stock muffler came apart inside (whatever you call the part with
Swiss Cheese holes in it) at barely 600 hours and blocked off most of the
exhaust exit. It got progressively worse over the course of 3 to 4 hours of
flying. It was kind of insidious at first, just a bit sluggish, but I
figured density altitude was the culprit or maybe the maximum weight I was
trying to get airborne, but then a chunk of muffler must have broken loose
because the power went way down and I barely had enough to maintain minimum
speed and land.
The repair was expensive because it happened in the middle of nowhere at
Harris Ranch airport in central California. I was a dunderhead because I
never thought to shine a flashlight up the exhaust pipe. If I had, I would
have seen the blockage immediately, or perhaps a crack earlier on. Anyway,
the repair process involved flying back and forth from Gary Vogt's place in
his plane to bring down an new muffler ($$$..overnighted..$$$) from
Fletcher. We field changed the muffler on the ramp at Harris Ranch in the
middle of a really annoying dust storm where I thought my cowling was going
to end up in the next county. Also the plane was filthy inside and out and
required five hours of cleaning later. After rightly paying for Gary's time
and fuel, and the overnight shipping, and a couple of days of lost pay from
my job, the cost of the muffle itself was a relatively small part of the
final bill.
I took two things away from this experience. First, a mechanical problem in
a remote area can be big bucks regardless of what the replacment part costs.
Second, I now always preflight the exhaust system by shining a light up the
pipe. I can see the "Swiss Cheese" cannister that way. If it's cracked,
looks broken, or anything makes a funny sound like something's loose when
you tap on it with your knuckle or a rubber mallet, I'll have it check out.
Bill Kelly
AA1C 39065
| Quote: | PF is no different, except you can replace individual parts instead of the
entire exhaust.
Individual parts of the OEM exhaust system can be replaced. The muffler
with pipes is one part, each of the risers are separate as are the clamps
and the muffler shroud.
For most people the issue is the cost. The initial cost is around $4000,
whereas typically most people just need a new muffler to get them going
again. That is not to say that many of the original risers are beyond
their lifespan and the clamps need to be replaced on somewhat of a regular
basis as well. Most Tiger mufflers only last about 800 hrs before the
internal flame cone burns out.
Cliff
|
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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| Quote: | I took two things away from this experience. First, a mechanical problem
in a remote area can be big bucks regardless of what the replacment part
costs. Second, I now always preflight the exhaust system by shining a
light up the pipe. I can see the "Swiss Cheese" cannister that way. If
it's cracked, looks broken, or anything makes a funny sound like
something's loose when you tap on it with your knuckle or a rubber mallet,
I'll have it check out.
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This is what preventative maintenance is all about. These flame cones don't
just fail instantly. You can tell if you look periodically if the metal is
getting thin to the point that it is starting to fail, i.e. a small piece
joining two holes will be missing, etc.
Cliff
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allenc3(at)bellsouth.net
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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I had a short stack power flowflow installed on my Tiger about 4 yeas ago by powerflow at DAB. I had the prop balanced at the time (part of the $500 installation cost). I have had no problems, no cracks etc. I lube the tubes every annual with high temp lube as per powerflow instructions, but that is about it.
My Tiger climbs better (about 200 f/m better) than stock, and as I fly off a 2500 foot grass strip, I appreciate the extra performance. Also see about a 100 rpm increase in static RPM than I did with the stock exhaust.
I have also read some of the issues other folks claim they have had, but everyone I personally know with powerflow systems on not just Tigers but other airframes as well (Cessna's, Mooney's) are satisfied with both the performance and maintenance of their systems.
Claude
From: Jim Starkey (jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com)
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 3:50 PM
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Power Flow Exhaust System
I'm interested in a new cowl because mine is 30 years old, beat up, and showing fatigue cracks here and there. I'm not interested in a Power Flow exhaust because the performance difference is insignificant for how I use my airplane, and, cost aside, not worth the maintenance hassle. Before you say, "what maintenance hassle", what I have heard over and over on the other list is that the Power Flow exhaust has a lifetime of about 800 hours before it cracks. This is usually followed up by an accusation that the unhappy customer didn't install it correctly, so it's his fault and what did he expect. I don't want an exhaust that regularly fails and I don't want to be blamed when it does.
My current exhaust system has been recently rebuilt, and if the survives for another 25 years, I'll be too old to care on way or the other. But my desire to trade a reliable system for an expensive unreliable one for a performance delta that I don't care about leaves me cold.
A new cowl would solve a problem I have. A Power Flow exhaust would introduce a problem I don't have. Enough said.
On 10/4/2010 3:24 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: [quote] Jim,
Just what is it that you don't like about the Power Flow? Can you be specific?
Gary
From: Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com> (jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 12:06:45 PM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
That's fine. I'm just a potential customer giving you feedback. Please feel free to ignore it if you don't like it.
On 10/4/2010 2:36 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: [quote] For the record, the standard exhaust is one of the worst designs anyone ever came up with.
From: Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com> (jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 10:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
For the record, I would buy the cowl if it were available with the standard exhaust, but I wouldn't even consider installing a Power Flow exhaust system to get it.
On 10/4/2010 12:29 AM, Gary Vogt wrote: [quote] Hal,
Nothing is impossible. Figure hiring a DER and involving the FAA for about 2 or 3 years. At bare minimum, you'll need about 4 or 5 climb cooling tests, 3 (if everything works right the first time) carb heat rise tests, and 3 climb performance tests. I would estimate somewhere in the $15,000 range.
Gary.
And, thanks again for all the rides at Dayton.
From: halb221 <halb221(at)centurylink.net> (halb221(at)centurylink.net)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 4:08:05 PM
Subject: Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going price. Deposit
DIV { MARGIN:0px;} Gary, Hello from Alabama
I am very interested in your your new deal, I do have one question, how hard would it be to get approval to use your cowl with the standard aa5b exhaust system?
Hal B (Beauchesne) (Your part time ride at Dayton) cell: 334-301-9641
[quote] ---
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teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject: Power Flow Exhaust System |
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On more than one occasion, I've seen the flame arrestor in the stock muffler fail and partially to totally block the exhaust pipe. For this reason alone, from a safety standpoint, I would never recommend the stock muffler.
From: Airport Bum <aa5_driver(at)YAHOO.COM>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 1:24:51 PM
Subject: Re: Power Flow Exhaust System
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Airport Bum <aa5_driver(at)yahoo.com (aa5_driver(at)yahoo.com)>
Jim,
How many hours did you fly your plane in the last 25 years? I don't know of anyone who has had a complete failure of a pf. It is possible that there have been some failures of a part or two, but that is not a complete failure of the system. I would bet that your exhaust is not original or has been serviced/repaired at some time in the past, wether it was logged or not. Either it was repaired or it has been unairworthy for many years. It was made by man, it will fail at some point. PF is no different, except you can replace individual parts instead of the entire exhaust. Try one you might like it.
APB
Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com (jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com)> wrote:
[quote] I'm interested in a new cowl because mine is 30 years old, beat up,
and showing fatigue cracks here and there. I'm not interested in a
Power Flow exhaust because the performance difference is insignificant
for how I use my airplane, and, cost aside, not worth the maintenance
hassle. Before you say, "what maintenance hassle", what I have heard
over and over on the other list is that the Power Flow exhaust has a
lifetime of about 800 hours before it cracks. This is usually followed
up by an accusation that the unhappy customer didn't install it
correctly, so it's his fault and what did he expect. I don't want an
exhaust that regularly fails and I don't want to be blamed when it does.
My current exhaust system has been recently rebuilt, and if the survives
for another 25 years, I'll be too old to care on way or the other. But
my desire to trade a reliable system for an expensive unreliable one for
a performance delta that I don't care about leaves me cold.
A new cowl would solve a problem I have. A Power Flow exhaust would
introduce a problem I don't have. Enough said.
On 10/4/2010 3:24 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Just what is it that you don't like about the Power Flow? Can you be
> specific?
>
> Gary
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com (jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com)>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
> *Sent:* Mon, October 4, 2010 12:06:45 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going
> price. Deposit
>
> That's fine. I'm just a potential customer giving you feedback.
> Please feel free to ignore it if you don't like it.
> On 10/4/2010 2:36 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>> For the record, the standard exhaust is one of the worst designs
>> anyone ever came up with.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Jim Starkey <jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com (jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com)>
>> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
>> *Sent:* Mon, October 4, 2010 10:14:01 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going
>> price. Deposit
>>
>> For the record, I would buy the cowl if it were available with the
>> standard exhaust, but I wouldn't even consider installing a Power
>> Flow exhaust system to get it.
>>
>>
>> On 10/4/2010 12:29 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>>> Hal,
>>>
>>> Nothing is impossible. Figure hiring a DER and involving the FAA
>>> for about 2 or 3 years. At bare minimum, you'll need about 4 or 5
>>> climb cooling tests, 3 (if everything works right the first time)
>>> carb heat rise tests, and 3 climb performance tests. I would
>>> estimate somewhere in the $15,000 range.
>>>
>>> Gary.
>>> And, thanks again for all the rides at Dayton.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* halb221 <halb221(at)centurylink.net (halb221(at)centurylink.net)>
>>> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
>>> *Sent:* Sun, October 3, 2010 4:08:05 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: Jaguar cowling. 25% off the going
>>> price. Deposit
>>>
>>> Gary, Hello from Alabama
>>> I am very interested in your your new deal, I do have one question,
>>> how hard would it be to get approval to use your cowl with the
>>> standard aa5b exhaust system?
>>> Hal B (Beauchesne) (Your part time ride at Dayton) cell:
>>> 334-301-9641
>>>
>>> ---
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