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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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 Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: Romania |
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“A fool and his money shall soon be separated”.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:16 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Romania
The last 3 new Sukhoi Su-29 were sold at over $500,000 each.
One was to a rich,but low-time pilot, "New Russian" businessman,who said he did not need any converting to type.
On his first flight he went off the end of the runway at high speed;demolished the plane [of course no insurance], but he walked away!!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
[quote]
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tjyak50
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Romania |
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There is probably more than just Airplanes in that $400k each.
Spare parts, tools, engines, training, shipping, financing, kickbacks, etc.
I imagine a large contract like that has lots of additional stuff.
Some of it might be related to the airplanes.
TJ
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pilko2(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:43 am Post subject: Romania |
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...and some of the $400k may just be Romanian Salesman's "poetic
license"............ Or just plain BS.
IMHO RG's integrity is beyond question........... I reserve judgement on our
FSU comrades.......
This my first and final posting on the matter.
kp
--
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:27 am Post subject: Romania |
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I'm totally sure of the figure of a bit over $400k.
What does suprise me is that some seem to think that it is very high!
To an extent it must be because because they are still in this dream world where these planes were sold at prices that bore no relation to their manufacturing costs or to their actual value.
In 1991 I bought a batch of NEW Yak 52's,with all extras and ground equipment for $40,000 each [and sold them for not a huge amount more!].
Also,anyone who has any experience of Government to Government military contracts will know that everything is expensive-and that is not just in the East!!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
[quote] ---
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:22 pm Post subject: Romania |
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Richard, I did not mean to stir up a hornets nest over this subject, so pardon me. That said there is really only one major rule that I apply when it comes to airplanes.
They are "worth" exactly as much as someone else is willing to pay. That includes Government sales! (Sadly)
Some folks are willing to pay a lot. Some folks are not. Would you or your company consider paying $400,000 for a brand new YAK-52? My prediction is that your answer might be: "Of course, but only if we have a guaranteed buyer at that price".
That being the case, what would you pay TODAY for a batch of brand new YAK-52's that you wanted to turn around and sell? Would you pay $400,000 ... EACH ??? On speculation that is, not consignment.
Let me know how that goes my friend.
Mark
p.s. My initial comments on the price of these new aircraft was based on the following fact: "Worth" is a purely relative term. It is not synonymous with "cost to manufacture" and never will be in a supply based economy. I'm glad that Vietnam paid what they did for these new YAK-52's. Some other Govt. may even pay more. With the supply of used YAK-52's being what they are today, no sane individual will ever pay that much unless money is simply no object.... and some people and most Governments meet that description!
That was the only point I was trying to make, as initially I was not aware it was a Govt. sale.
--- On Tue, 11/30/10, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Romania
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 12:15 PM
I'm totally sure of the figure of a bit over $400k.
What does suprise me is that some seem to think that it is very high!
To an extent it must be because because they are still in this dream world where these planes were sold at prices that bore no relation to their manufacturing costs or to their actual value.
In 1991 I bought a batch of NEW Yak 52's,with all extras and ground equipment for $40,000 each [and sold them for not a huge amount more!].
Also,anyone who has any experience of Government to Government military contracts will know that everything is expensive-and that is not just in the East!!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
[quote] ---
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Romania |
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How about a new Beech Baron for $1.23 million. See any value there?
If you count each side at $100,000 and the panel at $100,000 that's
$300K for engines,props and electronics. Where did the other almost $900,000 go? You can buy a good used one of those for $200,000 also.
Houses are just wood sticks and they don't give them away in a good market either. If you like buying good used airplanes don't bitch about how much someone charges for new ones. Just be glad someone else can afford them and then later you can buy them used and still brag about the good deal you got.
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HawkerPilot2015
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: Romania |
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These...what?
--
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wdjester(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: Romania |
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I'll bet the b-2.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 3, 2010, at 7:42 AM, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]
These...what?
--
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HawkerPilot2015
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Romania |
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Yeah,,,,the B2
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:27 pm Post subject: Romania |
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Okay knew you were not referring to the Raptor or the Lightening II.
Doc
--
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HawkerPilot2015
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: Re: Romania |
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Nope..but we can throw those two over priced airframes into the mix.
400K for a Yak-52...I can see that..especially for a government.
I would be less concerned about what Vietnam is paying for a Yak-52 and more concerned about parts and spares availability. I would guess that if availability continues to be an issue, so will value of these airplanes. I know the P-51 community can pretty much make a brand new P-51 these days, it comes at an enormous cost. A friend of mine had a Mustang that needed one prop blade. If I recall, it cost him about 20K shipped. Multiply that by 4 plus a hub and spinner......point is, is it cost effective (or productive) for someone to start making parts that are simply no longer available?
| viperdoc(at)mindspring.co wrote: | Okay knew you were not referring to the Raptor or the Lightening II.
Doc
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: Romania |
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Copy, Jack Rouch has a new niche for his NASCAR engine and frame companies.
Not that he needs one. He makes P-51 airframe parts as well as parts for
the Merlin. Glad someone is doing it. With CADD, parts for the YAK can be
machined also at a cost. Question is, will the YAK community support those
costs? I have my doubts after my excursion into making Carbon Monoxide
scrubbers. A company for NASCAR makes them now...they are not cheap but are
effective. Not sure they will sell them to the aviation community with all
the associated liability.
Doc
--
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Cliff.Coy
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:46 pm Post subject: Romania |
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Tim,
I would say the "Big Three" of George and myself, Jill and Carl, and Dennis are doing what we can to produce replacement parts for the Yaks. Whereas Aerostar has the the ability to produce many of the parts, the lead time and pricing is not acceptable to non-government markets.
This may be a good time for us (collectively) to show what's available and to update what's in the works.
Engines and engine parts-
The Romanian Factory is still producing new engines as well as performing factory overhauls.
Turn around time for an overhaul once the engine is received is about 3-1/2 weeks.
They offer component overhauls of compressors, mags, and oil pumps.
George has already posted the factory's news concerning the new piston and ring sets for cylinders.
We have developed a replacement magneto for which we've been waiting for over a year to have test flown (nudge nudge poke poke you *know* who you are).
The second generation electronic ignition system is in the final stages of programming.
Both of these systems are meant to be a "drop in" replacement utilizing the same mounting pad and form size.
George has invested a *lot* of time and money into these systems.
Ignition lead is available as are new Chinese spark plugs.
There are also replacement (and arguably more reliable) automotive conversions available from Dennis and Bill Blackwell.
We have carburetors overhauled in both Russia and Romania.
Airflow Performance has a system that's working pretty well.
The Continental style fuel injection system is still in development at the factory.
Jill and Carl have received factory training to perform engine overhauls and tear down inspections.
Barrett Precision is also doing the same.
Propellers
We have the parts to overhaul the two bladed V.Period hubs and the ability to perform static balancing.
We have manufactured new internal parts for the hub- piston,domes, and pitch change blocks.
I recommend Whirlwind Propeller for overhauling the blades. It's simply a cost effective thing to do.
Jill is offering replacement blades developed in conjunction with Whirlwind.
Avia Propeller has also developed replacement blades.
Rubber Products-
We have new Russian hose material to remake the hose assemblies.
We have completed and paid for the engineering for metric hose fittings using U.S. hose.
When we have the capital, we'll invest in a run of 10 fittings sets.
For the header tank flop tube we are having this reverse engineered for fabrication over here.
New U.S. tires are available
Seals- I get my seals from Jill and Carl. I have a complete factory new seal kit that I'm holding for later duplication if necessary.
Engine mount rubbers and baffles are available.
Intake seals and valve cover seals are available.
Canopies
Replacement canopy sets have been available from LP and Cee Bailys for years.
Exhaust Systems
We sent a core engine to Aircraft Exhaust for them to develop a stainless steel slip jointed exhaust system.
After a few tries, we've got a pretty good drop in replacement (including the heater muff).
Pneumatic System
This is the grayest area for replacement parts.
We have the engineering completed for producing new steel and stainless steel air bottles. Again, we're holding off to do a run of ten sets to bring the price down.
Air start valves are available in limited quantities.
We have replacement check valves and can also rebuild check valves.
Dennis offers the same.
We have re-machined component parts like the differential valves.
For those of you with extra deep pockets, George developed and fabricated hydraulic systems to replace both the brakes and landing gear systems.
Brake drums and pads are usually available.
Major Airframe Components
These are going to be the hardest to come by and the hardest to produce.
If Aerostar over produced the part you're looking for, then it'll probably be available- for EU pricing.
If not, then it's going to come off of another aircraft.
Cowlings, shutters, and control surfaces are getting scarce.
We all have contacts outside of the U.S. who can search for used parts.
Price and lead time is solely dependent on those contacts.
I've heard tell that someone in California had made up composite cowlings, but this was years ago and I've never seen one.
We have bearings for the control rods.
We have access to control cables.
Modifications
There is plenty of room for lightening the load or increasing the range.
For additional fuel, Dennis has bladders, we convert to wet wings.
Replacing the radio & intercom, the DG & AI systems, and removing the ADF systems sheds somewhere in the vicinity of 50lb. I'm keeping this part short as it goes on for several threads.
Suffice it to say that keeping everything original is going to become increasingly expensive.
So the State of the Union, as it is, isn't that bad off- somewhere between the Beech Musketeer and an Ercoupe.
The most dramatic change is in the parts pricing which, for decades, has been based off of old stocks.
Like everything else, the limitations on parts availability and pricing is based on the bankroll behind it.
Making one is expensive. Making 100 lowers the individual part's cost but the outlay is quite high.
Deciding what to invest in is daunting at times. We've been sitting on several thousand dollars in landing gear lamps for almost 10 years now.
I invite everyone else to put their two cents in about what they have and what they need.
I'm aware that what I 'm saying may be painfully obvious to most, so responses obviously stating that I'm stating the obvious can be sent directly to /dev/null. *grin*
Best regards,
Cliff
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 07:43, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)>
Nope..but we can throw those two over priced airframes into the mix.
400K for a Yak-52...I can see that..especially for a government.
I would be less concerned about what Vietnam is paying for a Yak-52 and more concerned about parts and spares availability. I would guess that if availability continues to be an issue, so will value of these airplanes. I know the P-51 community can pretty much make a brand new P-51 these days, it comes at an enormous cost. A friend of mine had a Mustang that needed one prop blade. If I recall, it cost him about 20K shipped. Multiply that by 4 plus a hub and spinner......point is, is it cost effective (or productive) for someone to start making parts that are simply no longer available?
[b]
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czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: Romania |
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UMA has a replacement Manifold pressure and tach for the M14P. Has anyone installed these and how big a job is it.
To much to ask for plug & play?
Thanks.
[quote] ---
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Cliff.Coy
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:15 pm Post subject: Romania |
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Bill,
The UMA gauges will fit into the panel quite nicely. UMA has the range markings for the M14-P.
The manifold pressure gauge is a snap (hose fitting)
The Tach is a different story.
Unless the engine is already equipped, you'll need an adapter which attaches to the air start distributor.
We have these adapters in stock for ~$75
Cliff
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 22:02, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:
[quote] UMA has a replacement Manifold pressure and tach for the M14P. Has anyone installed these and how big a job is it.
To much to ask for plug & play?
Thanks.
[quote]
---
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:21 am Post subject: Romania |
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All,We also have been manufacturing and improving existing parts for the CJ and to a lesser degree the Yak for a long time now, below is a partial list of the items we now either make in house or are having made for us.
Brake drums CJ or Yak) new manufactured stock available in March
Kit to adapt the 285 hp shutters to the M14P available in March
Stainless steel desiccant dryer mod for both CJ and Yak available now
Stainless steel mod for the three port gear and flap valve available in Feb
Snot valve mod, has stainless steel needle valve and hardened brass body available now
Main air valve mod which has stainless steel needle valve available now
Stainless steel overhaul kits for the following:
- CJ6 SS check valve o/h kits available now
- CJ6 SS diverter valve o/h kits available now
- CJ6 SS brake valve o/h kits (for Yak also) available now
- CJ6 SS brake distribution valve o/h kits (for Yak also) available now
Gaskets, to many to list, including red silicone rocker cover gaskets, and all gaskets needed at conditional inspection.
Mag coils for both the M14 and 285 hp engines. We are behind schedule on this one but expect inventory in 45 to 60 days.
Engine mount rubbers we expect our first shipment of M14 type mount rubbers in about 45 days.
Actuators, we now can overhaul main and nose gear actuators with new rams and seals.
We also stock all CJ hoses in 80 inch bulk lengths as well as pre made new hoses for the CJ6.
While manufacturing these "bead and butter" consumables is the logical next step I fear that is not the answer to 100% of the problems which will face us as the supply of parts from both Russia and China dwindle. The lack of sheet metal type parts will pose one of the biggest problems in my opinion. When I first started the CJ parts business 20+ years ago several insurance companies contacted me checking to see rather parts to repair were actually available. They explained that they were hesitant to sell hull insurance if the parts to repair were not available. At the present time most airframe sheet metal parts are in good supply but larger assemblies like wings, lower cowls and horizontal stabilizers are becoming difficult to find. If this situation persists I can see the day when hull insurance is difficult if not impossible to obtain.
Best Christmas Wishes to all,
Kathleen and Doug Sapp
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Cliff Coy <cliff.coy(at)gmail.com (cliff.coy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Tim,
I would say the "Big Three" of George and myself, Jill and Carl, and Dennis are doing what we can to produce replacement parts for the Yaks. Whereas Aerostar has the the ability to produce many of the parts, the lead time and pricing is not acceptable to non-government markets.
This may be a good time for us (collectively) to show what's available and to update what's in the works.
Engines and engine parts-
The Romanian Factory is still producing new engines as well as performing factory overhauls.
Turn around time for an overhaul once the engine is received is about 3-1/2 weeks.
They offer component overhauls of compressors, mags, and oil pumps.
George has already posted the factory's news concerning the new piston and ring sets for cylinders.
We have developed a replacement magneto for which we've been waiting for over a year to have test flown (nudge nudge poke poke you *know* who you are).
The second generation electronic ignition system is in the final stages of programming.
Both of these systems are meant to be a "drop in" replacement utilizing the same mounting pad and form size.
George has invested a *lot* of time and money into these systems.
Ignition lead is available as are new Chinese spark plugs.
There are also replacement (and arguably more reliable) automotive conversions available from Dennis and Bill Blackwell.
We have carburetors overhauled in both Russia and Romania.
Airflow Performance has a system that's working pretty well.
The Continental style fuel injection system is still in development at the factory.
Jill and Carl have received factory training to perform engine overhauls and tear down inspections.
Barrett Precision is also doing the same.
Propellers
We have the parts to overhaul the two bladed V.Period hubs and the ability to perform static balancing.
We have manufactured new internal parts for the hub- piston,domes, and pitch change blocks.
I recommend Whirlwind Propeller for overhauling the blades. It's simply a cost effective thing to do.
Jill is offering replacement blades developed in conjunction with Whirlwind.
Avia Propeller has also developed replacement blades.
Rubber Products-
We have new Russian hose material to remake the hose assemblies.
We have completed and paid for the engineering for metric hose fittings using U.S. hose.
When we have the capital, we'll invest in a run of 10 fittings sets.
For the header tank flop tube we are having this reverse engineered for fabrication over here.
New U.S. tires are available
Seals- I get my seals from Jill and Carl. I have a complete factory new seal kit that I'm holding for later duplication if necessary.
Engine mount rubbers and baffles are available.
Intake seals and valve cover seals are available.
Canopies
Replacement canopy sets have been available from LP and Cee Bailys for years.
Exhaust Systems
We sent a core engine to Aircraft Exhaust for them to develop a stainless steel slip jointed exhaust system.
After a few tries, we've got a pretty good drop in replacement (including the heater muff).
Pneumatic System
This is the grayest area for replacement parts.
We have the engineering completed for producing new steel and stainless steel air bottles. Again, we're holding off to do a run of ten sets to bring the price down.
Air start valves are available in limited quantities.
We have replacement check valves and can also rebuild check valves.
Dennis offers the same.
We have re-machined component parts like the differential valves.
For those of you with extra deep pockets, George developed and fabricated hydraulic systems to replace both the brakes and landing gear systems.
Brake drums and pads are usually available.
Major Airframe Components
These are going to be the hardest to come by and the hardest to produce.
If Aerostar over produced the part you're looking for, then it'll probably be available- for EU pricing.
If not, then it's going to come off of another aircraft.
Cowlings, shutters, and control surfaces are getting scarce.
We all have contacts outside of the U.S. who can search for used parts.
Price and lead time is solely dependent on those contacts.
I've heard tell that someone in California had made up composite cowlings, but this was years ago and I've never seen one.
We have bearings for the control rods.
We have access to control cables.
Modifications
There is plenty of room for lightening the load or increasing the range.
For additional fuel, Dennis has bladders, we convert to wet wings.
Replacing the radio & intercom, the DG & AI systems, and removing the ADF systems sheds somewhere in the vicinity of 50lb. I'm keeping this part short as it goes on for several threads.
Suffice it to say that keeping everything original is going to become increasingly expensive.
So the State of the Union, as it is, isn't that bad off- somewhere between the Beech Musketeer and an Ercoupe.
The most dramatic change is in the parts pricing which, for decades, has been based off of old stocks.
Like everything else, the limitations on parts availability and pricing is based on the bankroll behind it.
Making one is expensive. Making 100 lowers the individual part's cost but the outlay is quite high.
Deciding what to invest in is daunting at times. We've been sitting on several thousand dollars in landing gear lamps for almost 10 years now.
I invite everyone else to put their two cents in about what they have and what they need.
I'm aware that what I 'm saying may be painfully obvious to most, so responses obviously stating that I'm stating the obvious can be sent directly to /dev/null. *grin*
Best regards,
Cliff
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 07:43, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)>
Nope..but we can throw those two over priced airframes into the mix.
400K for a Yak-52...I can see that..especially for a government.
I would be less concerned about what Vietnam is paying for a Yak-52 and more concerned about parts and spares availability. I would guess that if availability continues to be an issue, so will value of these airplanes. I know the P-51 community can pretty much make a brand new P-51 these days, it comes at an enormous cost. A friend of mine had a Mustang that needed one prop blade. If I recall, it cost him about 20K shipped. Multiply that by 4 plus a hub and spinner......point is, is it cost effective (or productive) for someone to start making parts that are simply no longer available?
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:42 am Post subject: Romania |
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I agree with Doug, if it were not for him most of us with CJs would be grounded for lack of the spare parts which he always seems to come through with. Great job Doug!!
Merry Christmas
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 12:17 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Romania
All,
We also have been manufacturing and improving existing parts for the CJ and to a lesser degree the Yak for a long time now, below is a partial list of the items we now either make in house or are having made for us.
Brake drums CJ or Yak) new manufactured stock available in March
Kit to adapt the 285 hp shutters to the M14P available in March
Stainless steel desiccant dryer mod for both CJ and Yak available now
Stainless steel mod for the three port gear and flap valve available in Feb
Snot valve mod, has stainless steel needle valve and hardened brass body available now
Main air valve mod which has stainless steel needle valve available now
Stainless steel overhaul kits for the following:
- CJ6 SS check valve o/h kits available now
- CJ6 SS diverter valve o/h kits available now
- CJ6 SS brake valve o/h kits (for Yak also) available now
- CJ6 SS brake distribution valve o/h kits (for Yak also) available now
Gaskets, to many to list, including red silicone rocker cover gaskets, and all gaskets needed at conditional inspection.
Mag coils for both the M14 and 285 hp engines. We are behind schedule on this one but expect inventory in 45 to 60 days.
Engine mount rubbers we expect our first shipment of M14 type mount rubbers in about 45 days.
Actuators, we now can overhaul main and nose gear actuators with new rams and seals.
We also stock all CJ hoses in 80 inch bulk lengths as well as pre made new hoses for the CJ6.
While manufacturing these "bead and butter" consumables is the logical next step I fear that is not the answer to 100% of the problems which will face us as the supply of parts from both Russia and China dwindle. The lack of sheet metal type parts will pose one of the biggest problems in my opinion. When I first started the CJ parts business 20+ years ago several insurance companies contacted me checking to see rather parts to repair were actually available. They explained that they were hesitant to sell hull insurance if the parts to repair were not available. At the present time most airframe sheet metal parts are in good supply but larger assemblies like wings, lower cowls and horizontal stabilizers are becoming difficult to find. If this situation persists I can see the day when hull insurance is difficult if not impossible to obtain.
Best Christmas Wishes to all,
Kathleen and Doug Sapp
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Cliff Coy <cliff.coy(at)gmail.com (cliff.coy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Tim,
I would say the "Big Three" of George and myself, Jill and Carl, and Dennis are doing what we can to produce replacement parts for the Yaks. Whereas Aerostar has the the ability to produce many of the parts, the lead time and pricing is not acceptable to non-government markets.
This may be a good time for us (collectively) to show what's available and to update what's in the works.
Engines and engine parts-
The Romanian Factory is still producing new engines as well as performing factory overhauls.
Turn around time for an overhaul once the engine is received is about 3-1/2 weeks.
They offer component overhauls of compressors, mags, and oil pumps.
George has already posted the factory's news concerning the new piston and ring sets for cylinders.
We have developed a replacement magneto for which we've been waiting for over a year to have test flown (nudge nudge poke poke you *know* who you are).
The second generation electronic ignition system is in the final stages of programming.
Both of these systems are meant to be a "drop in" replacement utilizing the same mounting pad and form size.
George has invested a *lot* of time and money into these systems.
Ignition lead is available as are new Chinese spark plugs.
There are also replacement (and arguably more reliable) automotive conversions available from Dennis and Bill Blackwell.
We have carburetors overhauled in both Russia and Romania.
Airflow Performance has a system that's working pretty well.
The Continental style fuel injection system is still in development at the factory.
Jill and Carl have received factory training to perform engine overhauls and tear down inspections.
Barrett Precision is also doing the same.
Propellers
We have the parts to overhaul the two bladed V.Period hubs and the ability to perform static balancing.
We have manufactured new internal parts for the hub- piston,domes, and pitch change blocks.
I recommend Whirlwind Propeller for overhauling the blades. It's simply a cost effective thing to do.
Jill is offering replacement blades developed in conjunction with Whirlwind.
Avia Propeller has also developed replacement blades.
Rubber Products-
We have new Russian hose material to remake the hose assemblies.
We have completed and paid for the engineering for metric hose fittings using U.S. hose.
When we have the capital, we'll invest in a run of 10 fittings sets.
For the header tank flop tube we are having this reverse engineered for fabrication over here.
New U.S. tires are available
Seals- I get my seals from Jill and Carl. I have a complete factory new seal kit that I'm holding for later duplication if necessary.
Engine mount rubbers and baffles are available.
Intake seals and valve cover seals are available.
Canopies
Replacement canopy sets have been available from LP and Cee Bailys for years.
Exhaust Systems
We sent a core engine to Aircraft Exhaust for them to develop a stainless steel slip jointed exhaust system.
After a few tries, we've got a pretty good drop in replacement (including the heater muff).
Pneumatic System
This is the grayest area for replacement parts.
We have the engineering completed for producing new steel and stainless steel air bottles. Again, we're holding off to do a run of ten sets to bring the price down.
Air start valves are available in limited quantities.
We have replacement check valves and can also rebuild check valves.
Dennis offers the same.
We have re-machined component parts like the differential valves.
For those of you with extra deep pockets, George developed and fabricated hydraulic systems to replace both the brakes and landing gear systems.
Brake drums and pads are usually available.
Major Airframe Components
These are going to be the hardest to come by and the hardest to produce.
If Aerostar over produced the part you're looking for, then it'll probably be available- for EU pricing.
If not, then it's going to come off of another aircraft.
Cowlings, shutters, and control surfaces are getting scarce.
We all have contacts outside of the U.S. who can search for used parts.
Price and lead time is solely dependent on those contacts.
I've heard tell that someone in California had made up composite cowlings, but this was years ago and I've never seen one.
We have bearings for the control rods.
We have access to control cables.
Modifications
There is plenty of room for lightening the load or increasing the range.
For additional fuel, Dennis has bladders, we convert to wet wings.
Replacing the radio & intercom, the DG & AI systems, and removing the ADF systems sheds somewhere in the vicinity of 50lb. I'm keeping this part short as it goes on for several threads.
Suffice it to say that keeping everything original is going to become increasingly expensive.
So the State of the Union, as it is, isn't that bad off- somewhere between the Beech Musketeer and an Ercoupe.
The most dramatic change is in the parts pricing which, for decades, has been based off of old stocks.
Like everything else, the limitations on parts availability and pricing is based on the bankroll behind it.
Making one is expensive. Making 100 lowers the individual part's cost but the outlay is quite high.
Deciding what to invest in is daunting at times. We've been sitting on several thousand dollars in landing gear lamps for almost 10 years now.
I invite everyone else to put their two cents in about what they have and what they need.
I'm aware that what I 'm saying may be painfully obvious to most, so responses obviously stating that I'm stating the obvious can be sent directly to /dev/null. *grin*
Best regards,
Cliff
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 07:43, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)>
Nope..but we can throw those two over priced airframes into the mix.
400K for a Yak-52...I can see that..especially for a government.
I would be less concerned about what Vietnam is paying for a Yak-52 and more concerned about parts and spares availability. I would guess that if availability continues to be an issue, so will value of these airplanes. I know the P-51 community can pretty much make a brand new P-51 these days, it comes at an enormous cost. A friend of mine had a Mustang that needed one prop blade. If I recall, it cost him about 20K shipped. Multiply that by 4 plus a hub and spinner......point is, is it cost effective (or productive) for someone to start making parts that are simply no longer available?
| Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributionet="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listtp://forums.matronics.com |
0123456789 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
0 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
1 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
2 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
3 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
4 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
5 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
6 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
7 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
8 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
9 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
0 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
1 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
2 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
3 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
4
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Cliff.Coy
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:03 pm Post subject: Romania |
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Add to our list:
Oil cooler retrofit kit with U.S. oil cooler.
I will have the first of the US manufactured replacement 5 litre and 11 litre bottles for evaluation in mid-January.
After researching the pressure cycling characteristics of stainless, I've decided to go with carbon steel bottles.
Cheers!
Cliff
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 14:39, Gill Gutierrez <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I agree with Doug, if it were not for him most of us with CJs would be grounded for lack of the spare parts which he always seems to come through with. Great job Doug!!
Merry Christmas
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 12:17 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Romania
All,
We also have been manufacturing and improving existing parts for the CJ and to a lesser degree the Yak for a long time now, below is a partial list of the items we now either make in house or are having made for us.
Brake drums CJ or Yak) new manufactured stock available in March
Kit to adapt the 285 hp shutters to the M14P available in March
Stainless steel desiccant dryer mod for both CJ and Yak available now
Stainless steel mod for the three port gear and flap valve available in Feb
Snot valve mod, has stainless steel needle valve and hardened brass body available now
Main air valve mod which has stainless steel needle valve available now
Stainless steel overhaul kits for the following:
- CJ6 SS check valve o/h kits available now
- CJ6 SS diverter valve o/h kits available now
- CJ6 SS brake valve o/h kits (for Yak also) available now
- CJ6 SS brake distribution valve o/h kits (for Yak also) available now
Gaskets, to many to list, including red silicone rocker cover gaskets, and all gaskets needed at conditional inspection.
Mag coils for both the M14 and 285 hp engines. We are behind schedule on this one but expect inventory in 45 to 60 days.
Engine mount rubbers we expect our first shipment of M14 type mount rubbers in about 45 days.
Actuators, we now can overhaul main and nose gear actuators with new rams and seals.
We also stock all CJ hoses in 80 inch bulk lengths as well as pre made new hoses for the CJ6.
While manufacturing these "bead and butter" consumables is the logical next step I fear that is not the answer to 100% of the problems which will face us as the supply of parts from both Russia and China dwindle. The lack of sheet metal type parts will pose one of the biggest problems in my opinion. When I first started the CJ parts business 20+ years ago several insurance companies contacted me checking to see rather parts to repair were actually available. They explained that they were hesitant to sell hull insurance if the parts to repair were not available. At the present time most airframe sheet metal parts are in good supply but larger assemblies like wings, lower cowls and horizontal stabilizers are becoming difficult to find. If this situation persists I can see the day when hull insurance is difficult if not impossible to obtain.
Best Christmas Wishes to all,
Kathleen and Doug Sapp
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Cliff Coy <cliff.coy(at)gmail.com (cliff.coy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Tim,
I would say the "Big Three" of George and myself, Jill and Carl, and Dennis are doing what we can to produce replacement parts for the Yaks. Whereas Aerostar has the the ability to produce many of the parts, the lead time and pricing is not acceptable to non-government markets.
This may be a good time for us (collectively) to show what's available and to update what's in the works.
Engines and engine parts-
The Romanian Factory is still producing new engines as well as performing factory overhauls.
Turn around time for an overhaul once the engine is received is about 3-1/2 weeks.
They offer component overhauls of compressors, mags, and oil pumps.
George has already posted the factory's news concerning the new piston and ring sets for cylinders.
We have developed a replacement magneto for which we've been waiting for over a year to have test flown (nudge nudge poke poke you *know* who you are).
The second generation electronic ignition system is in the final stages of programming.
Both of these systems are meant to be a "drop in" replacement utilizing the same mounting pad and form size.
George has invested a *lot* of time and money into these systems.
Ignition lead is available as are new Chinese spark plugs.
There are also replacement (and arguably more reliable) automotive conversions available from Dennis and Bill Blackwell.
We have carburetors overhauled in both Russia and Romania.
Airflow Performance has a system that's working pretty well.
The Continental style fuel injection system is still in development at the factory.
Jill and Carl have received factory training to perform engine overhauls and tear down inspections.
Barrett Precision is also doing the same.
Propellers
We have the parts to overhaul the two bladed V.Period hubs and the ability to perform static balancing.
We have manufactured new internal parts for the hub- piston,domes, and pitch change blocks.
I recommend Whirlwind Propeller for overhauling the blades. It's simply a cost effective thing to do.
Jill is offering replacement blades developed in conjunction with Whirlwind.
Avia Propeller has also developed replacement blades.
Rubber Products-
We have new Russian hose material to remake the hose assemblies.
We have completed and paid for the engineering for metric hose fittings using U.S. hose.
When we have the capital, we'll invest in a run of 10 fittings sets.
For the header tank flop tube we are having this reverse engineered for fabrication over here.
New U.S. tires are available
Seals- I get my seals from Jill and Carl. I have a complete factory new seal kit that I'm holding for later duplication if necessary.
Engine mount rubbers and baffles are available.
Intake seals and valve cover seals are available.
Canopies
Replacement canopy sets have been available from LP and Cee Bailys for years.
Exhaust Systems
We sent a core engine to Aircraft Exhaust for them to develop a stainless steel slip jointed exhaust system.
After a few tries, we've got a pretty good drop in replacement (including the heater muff).
Pneumatic System
This is the grayest area for replacement parts.
We have the engineering completed for producing new steel and stainless steel air bottles. Again, we're holding off to do a run of ten sets to bring the price down.
Air start valves are available in limited quantities.
We have replacement check valves and can also rebuild check valves.
Dennis offers the same.
We have re-machined component parts like the differential valves.
For those of you with extra deep pockets, George developed and fabricated hydraulic systems to replace both the brakes and landing gear systems.
Brake drums and pads are usually available.
Major Airframe Components
These are going to be the hardest to come by and the hardest to produce.
If Aerostar over produced the part you're looking for, then it'll probably be available- for EU pricing.
If not, then it's going to come off of another aircraft.
Cowlings, shutters, and control surfaces are getting scarce.
We all have contacts outside of the U.S. who can search for used parts.
Price and lead time is solely dependent on those contacts.
I've heard tell that someone in California had made up composite cowlings, but this was years ago and I've never seen one.
We have bearings for the control rods.
We have access to control cables.
Modifications
There is plenty of room for lightening the load or increasing the range.
For additional fuel, Dennis has bladders, we convert to wet wings.
Replacing the radio & intercom, the DG & AI systems, and removing the ADF systems sheds somewhere in the vicinity of 50lb. I'm keeping this part short as it goes on for several threads.
Suffice it to say that keeping everything original is going to become increasingly expensive.
So the State of the Union, as it is, isn't that bad off- somewhere between the Beech Musketeer and an Ercoupe.
The most dramatic change is in the parts pricing which, for decades, has been based off of old stocks.
Like everything else, the limitations on parts availability and pricing is based on the bankroll behind it.
Making one is expensive. Making 100 lowers the individual part's cost but the outlay is quite high.
Deciding what to invest in is daunting at times. We've been sitting on several thousand dollars in landing gear lamps for almost 10 years now.
I invite everyone else to put their two cents in about what they have and what they need.
I'm aware that what I 'm saying may be painfully obvious to most, so responses obviously stating that I'm stating the obvious can be sent directly to /dev/null. *grin*
Best regards,
Cliff
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 07:43, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Tim Gagnon" <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net (NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net)>
Nope..but we can throw those two over priced airframes into the mix.
400K for a Yak-52...I can see that..especially for a government.
I would be less concerned about what Vietnam is paying for a Yak-52 and more concerned about parts and spares availability. I would guess that if availability continues to be an issue, so will value of these airplanes. I know the P-51 community can pretty much make a brand new P-51 these days, it comes at an enormous cost. A friend of mine had a Mustang that needed one prop blade. If I recall, it cost him about 20K shipped. Multiply that by 4 plus a hub and spinner......point is, is it cost effective (or productive) for someone to start making parts that are simply no longer available?
012 34567
8 90 12 3456789
01 234
5
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--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
[quote][b]
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